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  #81  
Old 08-06-2010, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisteria View Post
The Queen IS descended from Charlemagne. Also for your information so was the Queen mother, the former Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon.

That is interesting as all my research has indicated that Philip brought that line into the BRF as it wasn't there before.

Could you provide the lineage please as I have never seen one with Elizabeth coming from Charlemagne, only Philip.
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  #82  
Old 08-06-2010, 07:17 PM
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Oh! Oh! I can! I can!
Of course I asked Wisteria for her link and she gave it to me. It's this one. However! One has to register to get the full geneology and as Russo hasn't registered, Russo doesn't have it. Although! The Legend says those dots at the top are all those that the person is decended from and there are 5 Kings up there along with Charlemagne.
Of course Wisteria will set things right once she comes one, however! I was SO excited about this new toy I had to jump in. Wisteria, I hope you forgive me!

GeneAll.net - Elizabeth II, Queen of Great Britain
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  #83  
Old 08-07-2010, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
That is interesting as all my research has indicated that Philip brought that line into the BRF as it wasn't there before.

Could you provide the lineage please as I have never seen one with Elizabeth coming from Charlemagne, only Philip.
Of course, I have much better sources than this, but on the spur of the moment I found this as I am not that keen on publishing my family tree on the forum but for starters you can look at this. Google has many references to the royal descendants (and others who are descended from Charlemagne). Not long ago there was a site asking for all persons who could prove (prove is the key word) that they were descended from Charlemagne to add their names to it.

Descendants of Charlemagne - Familypedia

To make it easier for you to search even though there are more links to Charlemagne, both Prince Albert and Queen Victoria were descended from Charlemagne.
As far as the Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon (the Queen Mother) the connection (among others) is through Joan Stuart, Princess of Scotland who married John Lyon, Master of Glamis.
These are the most simple to find but HM is not descended just through one line but many leading to Charlemagne and many other great Kings.
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  #84  
Old 08-07-2010, 06:24 AM
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Mods if this should go to a new thread please do.
But as we were talking about Charlemagne here is a list of the Presidents of the United State of America who are/were actually descended from Charlemagne to related to the British Royal family and most of the other royal families of Europe.

George Washington William Jefferson Clinton
John Adams George Walker Bush
Thomas Jefferson Barack Hussein Obama
James Madison
James Monroe
John Quincy Adams
Andrew Jackson
William Henry Harrison
John Tyler
James Knox Polk
Zachary Taylor
Millard Fillmore
Franklin Pierce
James Buchanan
Andrew Johnson
Ulysses Simpson Grant
Stephen Grover
Benjamin Harrison
Theodore Rossevelt
William Howard Taft
John Calvin Coolidge
Herbert Clark Hoover
Franklin Delano Rossevelt
Richard Milhouse Nixon
Gerald Rudolph Ford
James Earl Carter Jr
Ronald Wilson Reagan
George Herbert Bush
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  #85  
Old 08-07-2010, 11:21 AM
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"You can ask whether everyone in the Western world is descended from Charlemagne, and the answer is yes, we're all descended from Charlemagne. But can you prove it? That's the game of genealogy." The Atlantic | May 2002 | The Royal We | Olson

"There is virtually no chance that anyone of European ancestry is not directly descended from Charlemagne." Everyone is Descended From Charlemagne

Though I am not sure how you came to discussing Charlemagne's descendants in this thread.
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  #86  
Old 08-07-2010, 12:56 PM
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to nitpick, if you're going to have George Bush on there, then so should George W. Bush. And it's actually George Herbert Walker Bush.
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  #87  
Old 08-07-2010, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GömdNatt View Post
to nitpick, if you're going to have George Bush on there, then so should George W. Bush. And it's actually George Herbert Walker Bush.
There are two George Bushs' on the list, one at the bottom, and one just above Barack Obama at the top of what I presume is the next list.
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  #88  
Old 08-07-2010, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
There are two George Bushs' on the list, one at the bottom, and one just above Barack Obama at the top of what I presume is the next list.
You are right Lumut, when I posted they were in another column.
Kotroman, as to why Charlemagne was introduced to the thread, I was asked by Iluvbertie to give a link to prove that the Queen was descended from Charlemagne. I think that HM´s family tree has been sufficiently recorded to give her the benefit of the doubt, but as to Mr Jones of the local bakery, well if he has proof!
Now let´s forget Charlemagne, I did ask for the link to the Presidents to be moved if thought necessary,but I thought it wass rather interesting for our US members and some of the names are quite surprising.
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  #89  
Old 08-24-2010, 02:48 AM
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British Descent From the Tang Dynasty

Hello:

sevaral years ago, I came across mention of an article in a Chinese newspaper that maintained Queen Elizabeth II had possible Tang Dynasty of China ancestors. While I and another have pieced together one such possibility, I would like to see the original article.

Does anyone know where this was published?

What is the lineage? (note: anything online about this I already have seen or I am one of the sources for, so, referring me there won't help)

thank-you
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  #90  
Old 08-26-2010, 06:36 AM
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Hello,I copied this from another forum where I think you asked the same question and thought that it would also be good to be seen here...here is the line:


Emperor Su Tsung (Tang)
Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan)
Sharwin I
Karim
Shahriyar I
Qarin
Abul Melik
Surkhab
Abul-Hamza
Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin)
Abu Sahl Hamazasp III
Derenik
Katchik I
Hasan
Abul Gharib
daughter m. Auschin I (Lampron)
Hetum II
Alix m. Balian d'Ibelin

Guy d'Ibelin

Alix d'Ibelin m. Hugh de Lusignan
Jacques I 

James I de Lusignan m. Charlotte Bourbon

Anne de Lusignan m. Louis (Savoy)

Margaret m. Peter (Luxemburg) 1390-1433

Louis

Peter

Marie m. Francis Bourbon

Antoinette m. Claude, Duke of Guise

Mary m. James V of Scotland

James VI

Elizabeth m. Frederick V of Bavaria

Sophia m. Ernst Augustus, Elector of Hanover

George I

George II

Frederick

George III

Edward

Victoria

Edward VII

George V

George VI

Elizabeth II


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  #91  
Old 08-29-2010, 01:14 AM
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marc:

thank-you. however, I am looking for what the original article maintained and how it compares to the lineage I and a friend worked out. the latter is what you posted. I am also interested in any other possibilities
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  #92  
Old 08-29-2010, 08:05 PM
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The United States presidents up until a certain point were also former British subjects. Is it possible that some of them could've been British nobility as well?
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  #93  
Old 08-30-2010, 01:03 AM
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nobility? no. but their ancestors were
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  #94  
Old 08-31-2010, 12:24 AM
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Lightbulb Bridging the Gap: Ethnic Strains in the British Royal Family

The Monarchist League of Canada: Our Multicultural Monarchy - OUR MULTI-CULTURAL MONARCHY

www.monarchist.ca/redbox/ourmulticulturalmonarchy.doc

As well as being the great family tree of Canadian history, the Royal Family also connects us directly with the wider panorama of recorded human history, embracing the four corners of the world and many of its races.

ARAB
Queen Elizabeth II descends from the Muslims who created the Arab Andalusian civilization of Spain. Since some of those people sprang from the family of the Prophet, the Queen herself is a descendant of Mohammed. When Her Majesty visited Morocco in 1980, the Moroccan media pointed out this Islamuc ancestry of Canada’s Queen.

ARMENIAN
The Prince of Wales (Charles) descends from both the medieval Armenian Kings and from the earlier rulers of ancient Armenia.

AUSTRIAN
(and SWISS) All the immediate Royal Family have Habsburg ancestors who came originally from Switzerland, and who created the state of Austria.

BOSNIAN
Stephen Tvrtko, who his made his Kingdom of Bosnia the greatest Balkan power in the Middle Ages, is an ancestor of The Queen through her grandmother Queen Mary.

BELGIAN
Although the modern Belgian state dates from only 1830, the Belgian cultural heritage is that of old Burgundy. The famous Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy, is a direct ancestor of Charles, Princes of Wales. Pictures show them looking remarkably alike !

BYZANTINE GREEK
The Duke of Edinburgh (Prince Philip) has the blood of the Angeloi and Sommenoi Emperors of the East as well as of the famous Palaeologus Sovereigns of Byzantium in his veins.

CHINESE
During the visit of Elizabeth II to China in 1986, articles published in the Chinese media traced Her Majesty’s lineage to the Tang Dynasty, whose Emperors provided the Chinese Empire with a period of great peace, prosperity and artistic achievement.

CROATIAN
The Croatian ancestry of The Queen includes the House of Subic. Her Majesty is also descended from several Bans of Croatia.

CUMAN
The Cumans originally lived in southern Russia before being driven west into Hungary by the Mongols. Kutyen, their Khan, is an ancestor of Charles, Prince of Wales.

CZECH
All the Bohemian Kings who left children are ancestors of Charles, Prince of Wales.

DANISH Through the Duke of Edinburgh (Prince Philip) the Royal Family is Danish in the male line.

DUTCH William the Silent, Prince of Orange and founder of the Dutch state, is a forebear of Charles, Prince of Wales.

ENGLISH Charles, Prince of Wales, descends from every English King who left descendants except Charles I, Charles II and James II. The Prince’s sons, Prince William and Prince Harry of Wales, are descendants several times over of Charles I, Charles II and James II through their mother, the late Diana, Princess of Wales.

FRENCH Queen Elizabeth II is descended from Saint Louis, who was King Louis IX, the most famous medieval King of France, and from many other Carolingin, Capetian and Valois Sovereigns. Through their mother, the late Diana, Princess of Wales, Princes William and Harry of Wales are descended five times over from Henri IV, King of France, who sent Champlain to Canada, and who by insisting that commercial activities in the new land be accompanied by settlement, laid the original foundations for the French-speaking community of Canada.

GEORGIAN Now once again an independent country, Georgia was a Kingdom has long ago as the days of the Greco-Roman world. The Prince of Wales (Charles) descends from many of its ancient and modern monarchs.

GERMAN German ancestry makes up a good part of the Royal Family’s background. Included in it are the great medieval Emperors and the dynasties of Bavaria, Saxony, Hesse, Baden, Mecklenburg, Brunswick and Anhalt, as well as such famous families as Hohenlohe, Moltke and Trauttmansdorf. Frederick the Great was an ancestral uncle of the Duke of Edinburgh (Prince Philip).

IRISH Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother brought into the Royal Family the blood of the Dal Cais and Eoganacht dynasties of Munster and that of the Ui Neill High Kings. Charles, Prince of Wales, also descends from Brian Boru, Nial of the Nine Hostages and the Iron Age sacral Kings of Tara.

ITALIAN The Dukes of Savoy, the medieval Kings of Sicily, the Orsini of Rome, the Visconti of Milan, the della Scala of Verona and the Doria of Genoa are among the many Italian families whose blood has come to Charles, Prince of Wales.

JEWISH Charles, Prince of Wales, descends from the Colonna family who were Jewish in origin. He also has descent from the Khazars (see below) who adopted Judaism as their religion. The Queen and her family enjoy another Jewish descent from an historical figure named Makhir. He was a Jewish Prince of the Davidic Royal House sent by Caliph Harun-al-Rashid as ambassador to the Emperor Charlemagne at the end of the 9th Century. Makhir remained in Europe where he founded a family, one of whose descendants married into the medieval English Royal Family.

KHAZAR The Khazars formed a powerful state between the Byzantine Empire and the Islamic world. The Queen is descended from Menu Morat, Elteber of the Bihar Khazars.

LITHUANIAN The Queen is a descendant of Gedimin, the last pagan King of the Lithuanians who died in 1341.

MONGOL The Prince of Wales (Charles) is a direct descendant of Genghis Khan. This relationship provides The Royal Family with another link to China, for Genghis Khan’s grandson Kublai Khan became Emperor of China and founder of its Yuan Dynasty.

NORWEGIAN Harold Haardrade, King of Norway, and the old Norse jarls of Orkney are ancestors of Charles, Prince of Wales.

PERSIAN Through their mother, Princes William and Harry of Wales descend from Arsakes Vologaeses V Dikaios Epiphanes Philhellen, sacral King of Parthia, and of the Parthian Royal House of Arsaces who ruled Persia (Iran), Mesopotamia and Babylon (Iraq). The Parthian kings claimed descent from the earlier Achaemenid Dynasty. If true, this relationship makes the young Princes descendants of Cyrus the Great, and establishes a blood link with Classical Greece.

POLISH The original Piast Dynasty and Jagielonian Kings up to Sygmunt I (d. 1548) are all ancestors of The Prince of Wales (Charles). During her visit to Poland in 1996, The Queen made public reference to her Polish royal ancestors.

PORTUGESE Alfonzo, Duke of Braganza, is an ancestor of The Royal Family. The Holy Constable who secured Portugal’s independence is also an ancestor several times over of Princes William and Harry of Wales.

ROMANIAN Queen Mary, grandmother of Elizabeth II, brought Romanian blood into The Royal Family as well as Hungarian. Thus the Queen is descended from Vlad Dracul, Prince of Wallachia and father of the original Dracula !

RUSSIAN The Prince of Wales (Charles) descends from Peter the Great and Catherine the Great as well as the princes of the Rurik period. The later Russian Emperors through the murdered Nicholas II were close relatives of The Royal Family.

SCOTTISH King George VI (his grandfather) and the Duke of Edinburgh (his father) together provide the Prince of Wales (Charles) with twenty-two descents from Mary Queen of Scots and over two hundred from Robert the Bruce.

SERBIAN Serbia’s greatest ruler, Emperor Stephen Dusan, and the first King of Serbia, Stephen I, are both ancestors of The Queen.

SPANISH Ferdinand and Isabella, sponsors of Columbus’ expedition to America, and the epic Spanish hero El Cid are among the notable Spanish ancestors of Elizabeth II.

SWEDISH Through Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, his son The Prince of Wales (Charles) is descended from the Peace Kings of Uppsala and the rulers of Sweded in the age of the sagas, as well as many other of the historic figures of that land.

UKRANIAN Elizabeth II is 31st in direct descent from Volodymyr Monomachus, ruler of the Ukraine.

WELSH As is appropriate for a Prince of Wales, Charles is descended from Llywelen the Great and most of the Welsh Kings and Princes back to the time the Romans left Britain.
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  #95  
Old 08-31-2010, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by battle View Post
CHINESE During the visit of Elizabeth II to China in 1986, articles published in the Chinese media traced Her Majesty’s lineage to the Tang Dynasty, whose Emperors provided the Chinese Empire with a period of great peace, prosperity and artistic achievement.

This line has not be substantiated. It beseemeth me that the genealogies of Central Asia hold the key to this conundrum.

If the line stands they are, more importantly, descendants, not just relations, of this Chinese Emperor. I only wish the Chinese people who made this claim had provided us with a line on which they base their claim.

RootsWeb


A guess and an observation. The guess -- it's through the Turks. AFAIK its the Eastern Turks who have Chinese affiliations and the western Turks who can be traced further west (though not to Europe to my knowledge) -- but an East-West connection doesn't sound unlikely. The observation -- the T'ang were descended from an ephemeral Liang dynasty. Maybe this is the starting point of the ancestry rather than the main T'ang line. It would certainly be interesting to know the details of this claim.

http://news.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2004-01/1073628486

> During the visit of HM Queen Elizabeth II to China in 1986, articles> published in the Chinese media traced Her Majesty's lineage to the Tang
> Dynasty of China.
>
> Can anyone here build a bridge to the 10th century on this? Turks maybe?
> Or Mongols? Probably one or t'other. I reälize that nothing here is
> certain, (or, in the parlance, 'for sure')l but hoping that some suggestions
> might eventually lead to a more expository product.
> Also, could anyone here produce, or does anyone here have a table for the
> Khazars? How about Cumans, Petchenegs, Bihars, Polovtsy, etc.?

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap


Hello:


following is what I came up with as a possibility:

Emperor Su Tsung (Tang)
Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan)
Sharwin I
Karim
Shahriyar I
Qarin
Abul Melik
Surkhab
Abul-Hamza
Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin)
Abu sahl Hamazasp III
Derenik
Katchik I
Hasan
Abul Gharib (Governor of Tarsus)
daughter m. Auschin I (Lampron) (also Oshin I, Lord of Lampron born circa
1040/1050, died 1110)
Hetum II (Lord of Lampron 1110-1143, died 1143, married NN)
Auschin II (Lord of Lampron 1143-1170, born circa 1125, died 1170, married
after 1143
Schahantukhd Savén Pahlavouni)
Hetum III (Lord of Lampron 1170-1200, born 1151, died 1218, became a monk,
married NN daughter of Thoros II, and secondly NN)
Constantine I (Lord of Lampron 1220-1249, born circa 1180, executed29 June
1250,
married Stephanie, daughter of Constantine of Barba'ron)
Hetum IV (Lord of Lampron, corn circa 1220, executed 29 June 1250)
Alix (died after 1312) m.(1279) Balian d'Ibelin (Senechal of Cyprus, died
February 1302)

From here on details are in ES

Guy d'Ibelin
Alix d'Ibelin m. Hugh de Lusignan
James I de Lusignan m. Charlotte Bourbon
Anne de Lusignan m. Louis (Savoy)
Margaret m. Peter (Luxemburg) 1390-1433
Louis
Peter
Marie m. Francis Bourbon
Antoinette m. Claude, Duke of Guise
Mary m. James V of Scotland
James VI
Elizabeth m. Frederick V of Bavaria
Sophia m. Ernst Augustus, Elector of Hanover
George I
George II
Frederick
George III
Edward
Victoria
Edward VII
George V
George VI
Elizabeth II

there might be other lines as well

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap


RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap


RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap


RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Emperor Su-tsung 756-762 Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap


Li Min Hui

Li
Li On Ching
Li Liang
> > Li Hu
> > Li Bing, Duke of T'ang, ob. 572, m. Lady Tuku Yüan Chên (of interesting
ancestry)
> > Emperor T'ang Kao Tsu, (High Progenitor) 618-626, (Li Yuan, v. 566-635),
m. Tu T'ai Mu
> > Emperor T'ang T'ai Tsung, (Supreme Ancestor) 626-649, (Li Shih-min, n.
599), m. Wen-te, ob. 636
> > Emperor T'ang Kao Tsung, (High Ancestor) 649-683, (Li Zhi, n. 628), m.
Empress Wu 690-705, (n. ca. 625), dt. Wu Shihou by
> > Lady Yang, (related to Sui dyn.)
> > Emperor T'ang Jui Tsung, (Far-sighted Ancestor) 684-690, 710-712, (Li
Dan, v. 662-716), m. 2ndary Consort Tu
> > Emperor T'ang Hsuan Tsung, (Profound Ancestor) 712-756, (Li Lomg-ji, n.
685), m. Yang Guifei, (related to the Sui dynasty)
> > Emperor T'ang Su Tsung, (Respectful Ancestor) 756-762, (Li Yu, n. 711)
> > Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
> > Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan) 755-772
> > Sharwin I 772-797
> > Karim <-- (omitted in some sources) -->
> > Shahriyar I 797-825
> > Qarin I 837-867
> > Abul Melik
> > Surkhab
> > Abul-Hamza

At this point Toumanoff diverges from the descent given in this chart. He states that Mlke, wife of Gagik II, was the
daughter of a certain Abu Hamza or Gregory Artsrouni, son of a certain Vasak Artsrouni who he supposes to be a brother of
Abu Beldj Artsrouni (d. ca. 850) (Toumanoff, pp. 90-91). He provides very little information on any of these people and
it is conceivable that he may have made a mistake but it would require a further examination of the primary evidence to
confirm or deny this.

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  #96  
Old 08-31-2010, 12:54 AM
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I would consider the genealogy above Abu Hamza to be unproven until further evidence comes to light.

>
> Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin) 908-943/4

Khatchik (note that this is the same name as his probable descendant below) or Gagik II Artsrouni, King of Vaspurakan (908
- 943/44). He was born in 879 and d. 943/44. His wife was Mlke, see commentary above (Toumanoff, p. 91).

The _Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium_ (III: 2154) transliterates his name as Xac'ic and says that he was crowned king of
Vaspurakan by the Muslims in opposition to the Bagratid king Smbat I.

>
> Abu as-Sahl Hamazasp III 958-972

Abu Sahl or Hamazasp III, Prince Artsrouni (958/59 - 969). He married Gaday, of uncertain parentage (Toumanoff, p. 91).

>
> Derenik

Nothing is known of this Derenik but Toumanoff considers him to definitely be a son of Hamazasp (Toumanoff, p. 91).

>
> Katchik I, Pr. T'ornavan 1042

Khatchik I "le Sourd", Prince of Tornavan from an unknown date until his death in battle, 1042 (Toumanoff, p. 92).
Toumanoff gives only a dotted line from him back to Derenik which usually means he is guessing or going on very vague
evidence. Since Khatchik is known to be an Artsrouni I imagine he grafted him on to the place that fit best in the main
Artsrouni family tree.

>
> Hasan
> Abul Gharib, Gov. Tarsus

Byzantine Governor of Tarsus, ca. 1075 to aft. 1080. (Toumanoff, p. 92). There seems to be no evidence for the forename
Hasan.

>
> daughter m. Auschin I (Lampron), ob. ca. 1110

Given as "N. Ardzouni, d. of Abul'gharib, Governor of Tarsus" by Rudt-Collenberg (_R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]). Toumanoff
gives the same filiation (Toumanoff, _Manuel de Genealogie_, pp. 92-93).

From Oshin I, Lord of Lampron, to Elizabeth II of Great Britain is rather well-trodden ground so I have not bothered to
give any specific details on the people in this chart other than in places where there are errors. For the generations
before Oshin I have included more details as the line seems more uncertain.

>
> Hetum II, ob. ca. 1143
> Auschin II, 1125-70
> Hetum III, 1151-1218
> Constantine I, 1220-49
> Hetum IV, ob. 1250
> Alix m. Balian d'Ibelin

The 1279 marriage date given below actually applies to this marriage (Rudt-Collenberg, _R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]).

The generations from Alix of Lampron back to Oshin (or Auschin as in this chart) I, Lord of Lampron, are sound
(Rudt-Collenberg, _R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]).

>
> Guy d'Ibelin
> Alix d'Ibelin m. (1279) Hugh de Lusignan

Hugh & Alix are nos. 1592-1593 of "A Medieval Heritage" and ought to be listed in the next issue of _The Genealogist_ (the
last issue ended on 1591). They did not marry in 1279 but instead on 18 Jun 1318 (see Rudt-Collenberg, _The Rupenides,
Hethumides & Lusignans_, Chart XI [I]).

>
> Jacques I m. Helvis of Brunswick
> James I de Lusignan m. Charlotte Bourbon

His name was Janus, not James, see Sturdza, _Dictionnaire_, pp. 616-617 & "A Medieval Heritage", No. 398.

>
> Anne de Lusignan m. Louis (Savoy)

Pierre I de Luxembourg, Comte de St. Pol (1390-1433) married Margherita del Balzo (1394-1469), daughter of Francesco del
Balzo, Duca di Andria, & Sueva Orsini (Thompson & Hansen, "A Medieval Heritage", Nos. 392, 393, 786 & 787).

The incorrect connection between Pierre I and Marguerite is due to a confusion of Pierre I with his grandson & namesake
Pierre II (c.1439-1482) who DID marry Marguerite di Savoia (1439-1483), daughter of Ludovico and Anne above. Note that
this daughter is not given in my old series edition of ES Band II although a daughter Maria who married Pierre II's father
Louis as his second wife is given. Some explanation and confirmation from primary sources would be nice to unravel this
tangle.

See: ES (old series) II: 112; Sturdza, _Dictionnaire_, pp. 616-617; "A Medieval Heritage", Nos. 196-197.

>
> Margaret m. Peter (Luxemburg) 1390-1433
> Louis

These two generations should be eliminated. See above.

>
> Peter
> Marie m. Francis Bourbon
> Antoinette m. Claude, Duke of Guise
> Mary m. James V of Scotland
> James VI

The generations from Comte Pierre II to James VI & I can be traced in Thompson & Hansen's "A Medieval Heritage: The
Ancestry of Charles II, King of England" and present no problems.

>
> Elizabeth m. Frederick V of Bavaria
> Sophia m. Ernst Augustus, Elector of Hanover
> George I
> George II
> Frederick
> George III
> Edward
> Victoria
> Edward VII
> George V
> George VI
> Elizabeth II

The generations from James VI & I to Queen Elizabeth are obviously correct.

>
>
> there might be other lines as well
>
> _

There might be, certainly there are other descents from the Artsrouni and the Lords of Lampron.

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: Emperor Su-tsung 756-762 Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: Emperor Su-tsung 756-762 Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap


RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Fw: Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
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  #97  
Old 08-31-2010, 05:12 PM
Aristocracy
 
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This is pretty cool and fantastic if it is true. I wonder if the BRF has any connections to Ethiopian, Egyptian or Moroccan royal families.
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  #98  
Old 09-01-2010, 04:48 PM
Commoner
 
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Lightbulb Royal Descents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisteria View Post
Mods if this should go to a new thread please do. But as we were talking about Charlemagne here is a list of the Presidents of the United State of America who are/were actually descended from Charlemagne to related to the British Royal family and most of the other royal families of Europe.
Many Americans descend from these 17th-century British colonists who had royal descent.

Royal Descents of famous people

Roberts estimates that 100 million Americans can be got onto one family tree, with relationships to over 500 famous people: "a large quantity of my research concerns the 'New England family' - probably 100 million contemporary Americans descended from 5000 - 8000 Great Migration immigrants of 1620-50. If you have 50 or more sets (husbands and wives) of Great Migration immigrant forebears, you are probably related to almost all of the 100 million, within the range of 8th-12th cousins. The probability of kinship to notables is fully 100 percent, and the number of such 'household name' distant kin probably surpasses 500, possibly 1000."

NEHGS - Articles

Edward III is "often described as the ancestor of the British upper-middle class" [Burkes Presidential].

Edward III
Sources

Roderick W. Stuart claims millions of descendants of Edward III in America alone: "Edward III is the latest king from whom a large number of Americans and Europeans can claim descent. His American posterity numbers in the millions." [Stuart, 1998].

Sources

Royal descent really is not all that bizarre. I would say that most Americans who had English or Scotch ancestors in the US prior to 1800 would probably have multiple royal descents. The fact is, kings had children, like any other person. Those children had children and so on. By the third generation or so, those second and third and fourth sons were marrying into local families. They formed the upper and middle classes. True, because of that, their heritage was usually much better recorded than those of the masses who may not have had access to scribes and clergy on a level that the middle and upper classes did.

Because of the male primogeniture inheritance laws in England and Scotland, this class who were descendants of kings but no longer royal or even noble made up a large part of the first wave of immigrants to the US. They had the money and/or means to do so and there was nothing to keep them in the old countries. They came here like everyone else--to start a new life. "Peasants" did not start arriving in the US en masse until later, although that does not mean that the "royal" descendants who arrived early did not have "peasant" descents as well, because they did have those too. This group was already a very mixed lot and formed part of the original base of the human melting pot that is the United States.

Yale Statistician claims everyone with European Ancestor related to English Royalty. (genealogy, record) - Ancestry research, historical records, genetic analysis, sharing data, locating family - City-Data Forum
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  #99  
Old 09-02-2010, 01:34 AM
norenxaq's Avatar
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Ethiopia and Morocco link by way of Hailie Sellassie's wife, who has a descent from Mohammed. this would make them distant cousins as the Sultans of Morocco also descend from the Prophet. Egypt? what time period? Whether Elizabeth II shares a descent from Mohammed is an open question. She is probably related collaterally
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  #100  
Old 09-12-2010, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hereditary Thane View Post
This is always a fascinating topic, though a minfield. The legitimatists always amuse me; they come from families that acknowledge salic law and morganatic marriage, yet are happy to be "claimants" through female lines to the Stuart inheritance. Isn't it a fact that there are legitimate dynasts (should they wish to claim it) descended from Charles I Stuart ancestors who have long been British subjects. This is all academic as the Act of Settlement is to all intents and purpose part of the constitution of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Yes, there are many descendants of the last English king, Harold Godwinson in Britain and the Commonwealth.
Actually, the reason the Jacobites can make their claim through the female line is precisely because there is no salic law in Britain.. and because a Queen Regnant had been established in England long before the Stuart kings arrived on the scene.. beginning with Mary Tudor. The fact that the "heirs" lived in a country where salic law was recognized is irrelevant, as the claim would have been under the jurisdiction of the laws of Britain.

The Jacobites had no choice but to follow the "legitimate" line of succession, which it would have been if the Stuarts had not been ousted from power.

That claim would have fallen to Henrietta Anne, Duchess of Orleans, and her heirs. She was the youngest daughter of Charles I, and the only person who could make a claim to the throne after the male line of Stuarts failed.

There was no one else. James I was the only child of Mary, Queen of Scots. Charles I was his only surviving son. Charles II had no legitimate heirs.. and James II's line ended with Cardinal Henry Benedict Stuart.

Henrietta Anne had two daughters. On the death without issue of Marie Louise, Queen of Spain, the claim then fell to her sister, Anne Marie, Queen of Sardinia.

What the British did was to name Sophia of Hanover as the heir because she was Protestant and was the niece of Charles I.

In her case, she had lots of siblings.. but four of them never married, one drowned at 15, one married but had no issued, one was excluded because he was Catholic, and her brother Charles Louis, Elector Palatine, had divorced his wife and entered into a bigamous marriage with another woman. His only legitimate son died without issue as well.

Charles Louis did have a daughter, but her only son married the illegitimate daughter of Louis XIV, which I suppose also put him out of the picture.

I don't really view the claims of the Jacobites as any different from the claims of Henri, Count of Paris, to the French crown.. except of course, that there is no longer a French crown.

If Prince William ditches Kate Middleton in favor of Princess Marie-Caroline of Liechtenstein, then the whole thing can be put to rest . He'd have to wait a few years, however, since the Princess is only 14!

(that last part is a joke )
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