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  #441  
Old 05-21-2017, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Elisabeth was one of the reasons I mentioned how many of the great houses was reluctant in approving marriages between their more prominent members & members of mediatized houses. Elisabeth had to beg her grandfather for permission to marry her princeling & IIRC the future Emperor Charles was denied permission to marry a Hohenlohe.
Maybe it was denied due to the fact that he would one day be the Emperor.

He didn't deny his cousin Archduchess Henriette to marry Prince Gottfried zu Hohenlohe, or other members of the Imperial family to marry equally to the mediatized houses like Stolberg-Stolberg, Waldburg-Zeil, Salm-Salm or Waldbott-Bassenheim...

And later as Emperor, Charles allowed his brother to marry a Hohenlohe Princess...
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  #442  
Old 05-21-2017, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Maybe it was denied due to the fact that he would one day be the Emperor.

He didn't deny his cousin Archduchess Henriette to marry Prince Gottfried zu Hohenlohe, or other members of the Imperial family to marry equally to the mediatized houses like Stolberg-Stolberg, Waldburg-Zeil, Salm-Salm or Waldbott-Bassenheim...

And later as Emperor, Charles allowed his brother to marry a Hohenlohe Princess...
Thats exactly the reason Ive read - a Hohenlohe wasnt deemed ebenbürtig enough for a future emperor but was good enough for less prominent members of the family.
I have a feeling well get told off soon for not staying on topic lol
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  #443  
Old 05-21-2017, 06:44 PM
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Thats exactly the reason Ive read - a Hohenlohe wasnt deemed ebenbürtig enough for a future emperor but was good enough for less prominent members of the family.
For the Prussians Hohenlohe family was "good enough". Also for the British(Princess Alexandra of Edinburgh became a Hohenlohe-Langenburg)

Was reading about it when it was Prussia/Schleswig-Holstein marriage discussed and Hohenlohes(mother of the Empress) were described as "good enough", while Schleswig-Holsteins were a problem because of their Danneskiold-Samsøe ancestry.

Btw, Danneskiold-Samsøe were Counts, illegitimate line of the House of Oldenburg that ruled in Denmark.
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  #444  
Old 05-21-2017, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
All European monarchies followed the rules of this "Almanach de Gotha".
That's not entirely accurate. For starters not all European monarchies had strict, formalized rules about equal marriages - some had very formal rules about equal marriages that essentially prevented its members from being able to enter into morganatic marriages while maintaining succession right. Others only had rules about requiring permission for a marriage to take place - that permission typically was only granted if the marriage was equal, but in these countries there were no formal rules requiring the marriage itself to be an equal one.

Furthermore, the Almanach didn't actually create any rules. It recorded information about every reigning and formerly reigning house in Europe. It recorded who was of a reigning house and who was of a mediatized house. The marriage rules happened well before the Almanach came around, as did the mediatization.

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Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
Okay.
I definitely already understood the difference between morganatic and equal marriages though.
So how did it grow, from just being Germanic to comprising ALL royal houses? I actually have a copy of the 2013 Almanach.
All houses have long had marriage rules, with preference being given towards other royal houses over "commoners". The Germans didn't make the rules, they just wrote down who was acceptable and who wasn't - and it make sense that it was the Germans who did so, because the German princely states were considerably more complicated post-Holy Roman Empire than other monarchies.

Again - it's really obvious who's "equal" and who isn't in say 18th century France or Great Britain; either you're the King or you're not. It's more complicated in Germany because there wasn't one unified state. So the Germans went and wrote a book that listed who was who.

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Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
I definitely understood the whole anti-German sentiment regarding World War 1 and royalty. I feel, though, that there was a lot of xenophobia; (this is what I'd be thinking, if I was a royal living in the time period) if I can't marry someone because I'm German, what does that make the person/people who established these unwritten rules?
WWI, the anti-German sentiments that came with it, and the mass abolishment of many continental European monarchies following WWI and WWII is actually a major part of the large abandoment of equal marriages in Europe; there were fewer reigning families existing, the Germans were the "enemy", and there was more of a rise of the middle class and a push for monarchies to reflect the people that they reigned over.

In Britain, there was never actually any formal rule requiring equal marriages, and you do see some willy-nilly marriages among the English and Scottish monarchs prior to the Hanovers (more so the Scots, but Henry VIII wouldn't have married most of his wives if he'd only married equally). The Hanovers did have to enter into equal marriages to maintain succession rights to Hanover, but not Britain itself, and George III did get the Marriage Act passed so that he could dictate the marriages of his children.

Most of Queen Victoria's children married German royals, but her eldest son (Edward VII) married a Danish princess, and one of her daughters (Louise) married a British aristocrat. Of the children of Edward VII, only one of them entered into an "equal" marriage by the old rules - Maud married a Danish prince who became the King of Norway (Haakon VII). His eldest daughter (also Louise) married a British aristocrat, his middle daughter (Victoria) never married, and his son... well, George V married Mary of Teck; Mary's father was of the German nobility and was born as the result of a morganatic marriage. That would not have been in line with the rules that other houses were looking at.
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  #445  
Old 05-22-2017, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post

Most of Queen Victoria's children married German royals, but her eldest son (Edward VII) married a Danish princess...
Danish Princess who was born Her Highness Princess von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg.

She became Princess of Denmark only when she was 9 years old.
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  #446  
Old 05-23-2017, 04:06 PM
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Schleswig-Holstein was a Danish-German duchy held for most of its history by the Danish monarch. The family became more German when it passed into the junior branch, but Christian IX was born in the Danish part of the Duchy and Alexandra was born in Copenhagen. The family was also vehemently anti-German long before it was trendy to be anti-German, largely because of the issue of Schleswig-Holstein (which Denmark thought should be entirely in Denmark post-German Confederation, and Germany thought should be in Germany).

Saying that they were German royals is a gross over simplification of the issue, and goes in contrast to how they would have identified themselves or been identified as by their contemporaries.
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  #447  
Old 05-23-2017, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Schleswig-Holstein was a Danish-German duchy held for most of its history by the Danish monarch. The family became more German when it passed into the junior branch, but Christian IX was born in the Danish part of the Duchy and Alexandra was born in Copenhagen. The family was also vehemently anti-German long before it was trendy to be anti-German, largely because of the issue of Schleswig-Holstein (which Denmark thought should be entirely in Denmark post-German Confederation, and Germany thought should be in Germany).

Saying that they were German royals is a gross over simplification of the issue, and goes in contrast to how they would have identified themselves or been identified as by their contemporaries.
The whole issue of nationality was much more complex back then than it is today (and even today its no walk in the park) so its very tricky to impose our modern view of it on people living only 60-70 years ago. For example the language of the Danish court was German up until the late 18th century when it was replaced by French, Polish speaking noblemen praised their homecountry Lithuania while claming descent from the Sarmatians, in the Balkans few of the Greeks were actually Greek speaking since according to the customs of the time all members of the orthodox faith was seen as Greek etc...
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  #448  
Old 05-23-2017, 11:33 PM
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Well put. I'd add too that you have to remember that the borders have changed over the centuries. And not just in the more obvious places like Africa, Eastern Europe, the Middle East, which have had political turmoil in the last century. A great example of this is the border between France and Germany, which changed fairly regularly up until the end of WWII.
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  #449  
Old 05-24-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Schleswig-Holstein was a Danish-German duchy held for most of its history by the Danish monarch. The family became more German when it passed into the junior branch, but Christian IX was born in the Danish part of the Duchy and Alexandra was born in Copenhagen. The family was also vehemently anti-German long before it was trendy to be anti-German, largely because of the issue of Schleswig-Holstein (which Denmark thought should be entirely in Denmark post-German Confederation, and Germany thought should be in Germany).
I was discussing here only genealogy , as the thread is about that. And that is something you were born with and can't change it.

I was not discussing their intimate and private views of themselves, because it leads to another thing which is not called genealogy.

The fact is that they were members of the German dynasty(Oldenburg) which later ruled in Denmark, no matter where they were residing, born or "played cards"...

They had almost exclusively German ancestry, also married Germans for centuries, so based on their genealogy one can not deny that.

So, saying that they are not German is not so true, no matter what they thought of themselves and how much they hated "them", just because of the politics.

The other thing is how they felt personally about it and did they have issues with this based on the politics of the day, wars etc. which resulted their personal opinions, feelings and how THEY considered themselves.

For example, the irony is that German Empress Augusta Viktoria, who was from the other branch of the same dynasty, had more Danish blood than Queen Alexandra and still considered herself German from top to toe.

Quote:
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Saying that they were German royals is a gross over simplification of the issue, and goes in contrast to how they would have identified themselves or been identified as by their contemporaries.
I never said that they were "German royals". And as they ruled in Denmark, they must be Danish royals. But, they were Danish royals who were Germans. Danish ruling family of German ancestry and ethnicity, just like the British one.

The fact that they changed their family name to Windsor in 1917 can't hide facts that for centuries they were Germans, who ruled in jointly Great Britain and Hanover.

Nothing more or less. I am not going into how they privately felt about it or not, just genealogy facts.
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  #450  
Old 05-26-2017, 10:11 PM
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And as we speak about genealogy, for example, out of Queen Alexandra's 128 nearest ancestors, only 2 were not from German dynasties, that being Eléonore Desmier d'Olbreuse and Eleonore Elizabeth de La Cave.
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  #451  
Old 05-26-2017, 11:29 PM
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What is wrong with saying "German Royals"?

This isn't 1917.

HM has a fraction of German blood, OK, a hefty serving of that orderly pie, but maybe it is the German blood that has made her so perfect as an imperturbable monarch.

It's not from her mother. Prince Charles jokes about his "Scottish cheapness", implying that the Bowes Lyon heritage instilled some sort of admirable penny-pinching gene of thrift. Tell that to the former soldiers who now are charged with hauling his organic Highgrove produce and dairy to Birkhall, over hill and over dale, worrying if they will be late.

Being thought of German ... that's nothing.
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  #452  
Old 05-27-2017, 12:12 AM
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I think Prince Charles's joke referred more to stereotypes of the Scots held by English people for centuries, moths flying out of sporrans, that sort of thing. Whether or not the Bowes Lyons were particularly 'cheap' I don't know. However, I don't think the Queen Mother's lifestyle, especially in her widowhood, screamed thrift and penny pinching!

I agree that until the Duke of York married Lady Elizabeth Bowes Lyon British sovereigns and their consorts were of mainly German blood, however they regarded themselves. Before the Hanovarians there was more of a mixture, Spanish, French etc, but the Georges kept to their homeland for their wives. If posters on a Royal forum of this sort discuss the BRF in fifty years time, however, they certainly won't be able to say that.
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  #453  
Old 05-27-2017, 12:24 AM
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Curryong, thank you for not being a big Monty Python foot on my posts.
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  #454  
Old 05-27-2017, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Leopoldine View Post
What is wrong with saying "German Royals"?

This isn't 1917.

HM has a fraction of German blood, OK, a hefty serving of that orderly pie, but maybe it is the German blood that has made her so perfect as an imperturbable monarch.

Being thought of German ... that's nothing.
This is thread about genealogy, not about politics or their thoughts, views etc.

In genealogy terms, for someone whose 126 out of 128 nearest ancestors were from German families, saying that isn't German just because she didn't like Germans and she didn't feel German because of the politics of the day is absurd.

How she felt, how she dealt with various things is for the thread about her personally, but in genealogy there isn't such thing, as we explore something you were born with, not something you can change through your life depending on circumstances.
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  #455  
Old 05-27-2017, 02:49 AM
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I agree that until the Duke of York married Lady Elizabeth Bowes Lyon British sovereigns and their consorts were of mainly German blood, however they regarded themselves.
More interesting fact is that Elizabeth Bowes has also descended from various German families through her Bentinck ancestors.

Those ancestors were Counts von Oldenburg-Delmenhorst(same dynasty as Prince Philipp), Counts von Bentheim, Counts von Sayn, von Götterswick, von Münster, von Bodelschwingh, von Lüdinghausen and so on...
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  #456  
Old 05-27-2017, 03:49 AM
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Yes, that's so. However, Hans Bentinck came over to England with William of Orange (III), which was some time ago now, and since then the Dukes of Portland and Cavendish-Bentincks have mostly married fellow Britons and certainly the Queen Mother's paternal line married Scots and English brides and grooms. I don't think you could honestly say that the Queen Mother's ancestry was primarily German.
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  #457  
Old 05-27-2017, 04:25 AM
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I don't think you could honestly say that the Queen Mother's ancestry was primarily German.
Certainly not

But we were discussing ancestry of Queen Alexandra, for whom everybody likes to say that she wasn't German.

She was Princess of Denmark when she married Edward, Prince of Wales, but she was born as German Princess von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, which was her official title until the age of 9.

If Frederick VII had a legitimate son, she would stay Princess von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg.
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  #458  
Old 05-27-2017, 10:47 AM
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I'm staying out of this argument.
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  #459  
Old 05-27-2017, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
I'm staying out of this argument.
This is not an argument, just genealogy facts.

I just don't know what is wrong with stating them?

This is thread about British royal family genealogy and the purpose of this thread is stating genealogy facts.

I am not saying anything that isn't written in genealogy charts.

In case you don't trust me:

http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree....&generations=8

And you will se what I was talking about!
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  #460  
Old 05-27-2017, 11:54 AM
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Certainly not

But we were discussing ancestry of Queen Alexandra, for whom everybody likes to say that she wasn't German.

She was Princess of Denmark when she married Edward, Prince of Wales, but she was born as German Princess von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, which was her official title until the age of 9.

If Frederick VII had a legitimate son, she would stay Princess von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg.
The thing is its not as easy as saying Alexandra was German period. The House of Schleswig-Holstein had for centuries ruled over Schleswig, a part of the Danish dominion since the early Middle-ages and with a Danish speaking majority up until the early 19th century. Both her parents were raised in Copenhagen & the generations before them had married as much among themselves, into the BRF as with German families. Most of them were German by descent yes but nationality is as much about self-perception as about fact.
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