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  #401  
Old 05-08-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Diana's grandmother, Lady Cynthia Hamilton (wife of Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer), was the granddaughter of Lady Mary Anna Curzon-Howe, who herself was the daughter of Richard Curzon-Howe, 1st Earl Howe (of the 2nd creation).

She is more closely related to the 6th Earl than the 7th Earl (and present) though Mary Anna was born from the second marriage of the 1st Earl, and the Earldom descended through the sons of his first marriage. However, one of the granddaughters through the second marriage married the 5th Earl, and was mother to the 6th, making it a closer relation to the Spencers. The 7th Earl is the first cousin of the 6th, and so is not descended from the 1st Earl's second marriage.

That got complicated....
Yes it did!
Sounds like a soap opera!
Sorry for asking so many questions.
But what are some interesting Italian noble/royal characters the BRF is related to?
And is the BRF related to Louis XIV, King of France?
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  #402  
Old 05-08-2017, 03:04 PM
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I read an article that said Prince William is related to the Boleyn family through 3 separate lines.
One (or all three) being from Mary Boleyn (Anne's sister).
Can anyone tell me how true this is?
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  #403  
Old 05-08-2017, 03:22 PM
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I'm sorry for all my questions. But I have two more.

I read many years ago that either The Queen or Prince William (through his mother) is a cousin of PM David Cameron. Is there any truth to this?
And is Prince William related to Winston Churchill somehow (I know that his mother is related to the Churchills)?
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  #404  
Old 05-08-2017, 04:04 PM
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Without knowing the answer but if his mother is related, he is related too
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  #405  
Old 05-08-2017, 04:47 PM
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One thing that I think really had a huge effect on England and its peerage and bloodlines was the Black Death. Starting in 1348, its been stated that 30,000 of the estimated population of 70,000 was wiped out. The plague was to be a pandemic in England for several more centuries.

It stands to reason that those most likely to survive and live to propagate the bloodlines were the peers and the aristocrats having better access to uncontaminated food, better sanitation habits and more likely to be able to isolate themselves on their estates and quarantine the area.

The Black Death in England 1348-50

The last great plague hit London in 1665 through 1666. ""The Great Plague, lasting from 1665 to 1666, was the last major epidemic of the bubonic plague to occur in England. ... The Great Plague killed an estimated 100,000 people - almost a quarter of London's population - in 18 months."

https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Guess who was king at the time and fathered so many illegitimate children. Yeps. Charles II. Once again, the royals, the aristocrats, the peers and those close to the throne had a better chance of survival. Its not hard then to imagine how many people could trace their lineage back to Charles II in the illegitimate lines.

Perhaps one of the most interesting things I've come across as information for bloodlines is that *anyone* with even slight European ancestry can probably trace their family tree back to Charlemagne. Even the royals. Even the aristocrats and the peers and perhaps a lot of us here at TRF. This is an interesting article about it.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/...dam-rutherford
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  #406  
Old 05-08-2017, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
I'm sorry for all my questions. But I have two more.

I read many years ago that either The Queen or Prince William (through his mother) is a cousin of PM David Cameron. Is there any truth to this?
And is Prince William related to Winston Churchill somehow (I know that his mother is related to the Churchills)?
Yes, through his mother as you already stated, William is related to the Churchill family. Very distantly.

The 3rd Earl of Sunderland is common ancestor to both. The earls later became dukes of Marlborough. Winston was the grandson of the 7th Duke. Diana's family is descended from the third son of the 3rd Earl. The third son, his son was made 1st Earl Spencer. That is the family Diana comes from.

David Cameron and his wife are both said to be distant cousins of the queen. I think 11th cousin is closest, one through William IV and the other Charles II. Samantha is via marriage, a member of the Astor family. Both her stepfather, and her mothers stepfather were Astors. Makes her stepfather abd step grandfather both distantly related to Harry Lopez (camillas son in law) who is an Astor on his mothers side.


As for the boelyn

Diana is descended from Mary through her daughter Catherine Carrey. A several time great granddaughter married into the Spencer family and us Diana's ancestress.

Charles is as well through the queen mum.
https://www.theanneboleynfiles.com/m...-elizabeth-ii/
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  #407  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
Yes it did!
Sounds like a soap opera!
Sorry for asking so many questions.
But what are some interesting Italian noble/royal characters the BRF is related to?
And is the BRF related to Louis XIV, King of France?
I haven't really studied the geneology of Italian nobility or Royalty. so I couldn't say how they're related. That said, for most houses it's not so much an issue of "if" they're related but "how" they're related.

The Spencers are descended from the Medici family.

The Queen and Duke of Edinburgh are descended from 26 French monarchs. So, again, it's not so much a matter of if they're related, but how. I don't have the how though... I could say that the Queen and DoE are both descended from Charles VII of France, and both Charles VII and Louis XIV are descended from Louis IX of France.
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  #408  
Old 05-08-2017, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
I read an article that said Prince William is related to the Boleyn family through 3 separate lines.
One (or all three) being from Mary Boleyn (Anne's sister).
Can anyone tell me how true this is?
The Queen is descended from Mary Boleyn's daughter Catherine:
  • Elizabeth II
  • Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon
  • Cecilia Cavendish-Bentinck
  • Reverend Charles Cavendish-Bentinck
  • Lt.-Col. Charles Cavendish-Bentinck
  • Dorothy Cavendish
  • Charlotte Boyle, 6th Baroness Clifford
  • Richard Boyle, 4th Earl of Cork
  • Charles Boyle, 3rd Earl of Cork
  • Jane Seymour
  • Frances Devereux
  • Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex
  • Lettice Knollys
  • Catherine Carey
  • Mary Boleyn


Diana is also descended is from Mary Boleyn's daughter Catherine:

  • Diana Spencer
  • John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer
  • Cynthia Hamilton
  • Rosaline Bingham
  • Charles Bingham, 4th Earl of Lucan
  • Anne Brudenell
  • Robert Brudenell, 6th Earl of Cardigan
  • Robert Brudenell
  • Elizabeth Bruce
  • Elizabeth Seymour
  • Henry Seymour, Lord Beauchamp
  • Frances Devereux
  • Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex
  • Lettice Knollys
  • Catherine Carey
  • Mary Boleyn


And Diana is descended from Mary's son, Henry:

  • Diana Spencer
  • John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer
  • Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer
  • Charles Spencer, 6th Earl Spencer
  • Vice-Admiral Frederick Spencer, 4th Earl Spencer
  • George Spencer, 2nd Earl Spencer
  • Margaret Georgiana Poyntz
  • Anne Maria Mordaunt
  • Brig.-Gen. Hon. Lewis Mordaunt
  • John Mordaunt, 1st Viscount Mordaunt of Avalon
  • Elizabeth Howard
  • William Howard, 3rd Baron Howard of Effingham
  • Katherine Carey
  • Henry Carey, 1st Baron Hundson of Hundson
  • Mary Boleyn
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  #409  
Old 05-16-2017, 12:43 PM
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Which of the Medicis are the Spencers descended from?
And are the Spencers related to any non-reigning royal houses?

I don't know if my questions are off-topic or not, but I'll post them here--just in case someone may know the answers.

Also, are the Royal Family TRULY descended from the Tang Dynasty emperors, or is that still unproven?

Also, is The Queen descended from Georgiana Cavendish, Duchess of Devonshire? I know that she is the Princess of Wales' 4x great-aunt though, but I want to know about if The Queen is descended from her.

I'm currently learning about the Earls Bessborough. Are any members of the BRF descended from them? Specifically Diana, Princess Michael or The Queen.
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  #410  
Old 05-16-2017, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
Also, is The Queen descended from Georgiana Cavendish, Duchess of Devonshire? I know that she is the Princess of Wales' 4x great-aunt though, but I want to know about if The Queen is descended from her.
If i'm not mistaken she's an ancestor of Sarah Ferguson, but i don't think HM is a direct descendent...

Im sure someone can explain better, but Georgiana Cavendish was married to the 5th duke of Devonshire whose father was the 4th duke of Devonshire. The 4th duke also had a daughter Dorothy (a.o.) and through her he is the great-great-great-great grandfather of Queen Elizabeth II (via Q.Elizabeth, the queen mother's side of the family)
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  #411  
Old 05-16-2017, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
Which of the Medicis are the Spencers descended from?
And are the Spencers related to any non-reigning royal houses?

I don't know if my questions are off-topic or not, but I'll post them here--just in case someone may know the answers.
The Spencers are descended from Charles II of England and Scotland, whose mother was Henrietta Maria of France, giving the Spencers a good number of very distant non-reigning royal relatives.

It's through Henrietta Maria that the Spencers descend from the Medicis; her mother was one Maria de' Medici, whose father was Francesco I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany who was the son of Cosimo I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany. There's a couple lines from Cosimo I...

  1. Cosimo I
  2. Giovanni dalle Bande Nere
  3. Giovanni il Popolano
  4. Pierfrancesco the Elder
  5. Lorenzo the Elder
  6. Giovanni di Bicci de' Medici
  7. Averardo de' Medici
  8. Salvestro de' Medici Chiarissimo
Averardo was the founder of the Medici bank, and I believe the first Medici we typically care about from a historical point of view.


Cosimo I also descended from Medici's through his mother:
  1. Cosimo I
  2. Maria Salviati
  3. Lucrezia de' Medici
  4. Lorenzo de' Medici
  5. Piero di Cosmo de' Medici
  6. Cosimo de' Medici
  7. Giovanni di Bicci de' Medici (#6 on the paternal line)
I believe Diana's most recent royal ancestor is Charles II (and his brother James, who Diana is also descended from) that most of Diana's Continental European royal/noble ancestry comes from - and even then, it's not entirely "recent". Charles was I believe Diana's father's 7x great grandfather. So her family really isn't closely related to any foreign royals, reigning or non, other than through marriage. Charles is actually more likely to be more closely related to them, as most European royals descend from Johan William Friso, Prince of Orange, who was born 2 years after Charles II died.
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  #412  
Old 05-17-2017, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
Also, are the Royal Family TRULY descended from the Tang Dynasty emperors, or is that still unproven?
The lineage that's been posted on this thread that connects the Tang Dynasty to the House of Windsor is problematic... there are a few connections that it seems cannot be verified. I doubt it'll ever be proven.
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  #413  
Old 05-17-2017, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
Also, is The Queen descended from Georgiana Cavendish, Duchess of Devonshire? I know that she is the Princess of Wales' 4x great-aunt though, but I want to know about if The Queen is descended from her.

I'm currently learning about the Earls Bessborough. Are any members of the BRF descended from them? Specifically Diana, Princess Michael or The Queen.
The Queen is not descended from Georgiana Cavendish. She is related to her, albeit distantly; Diana is also related, a bit more closely.

Georgiana Cavendish was the daughter of John Spencer, 1st Earl Spencer. Diana's father, John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer, was the 1st Earl's 3x great-grandson. The 1st Earl's 2x great-grandfather, Henry Spencer, 1st Earl of Sunderland, was a common ancestor of the Queen, through her mother's family.

Georgiana's father-in-law, William Cavendish, 4th Duke of Devonshire, was also an ancestor of the Queen's through her mother.

Interestingly, Diana is descended from Georgiana's lover, Charles Grey, 2nd Earl Spencer. He and his wife were the 3x great-grandparents of Diana's father. He is not an ancestor of the Queen.

The Spencers are descended from the 1st Earl of Bessborough through a younger son. The Queen and DoE are not descended from any of the Ponsonbys as far as I know. I've never been interested in Princess Michael enough to research her ancestry, although from what I understand her family was from the Continent and therefore I wouldn't expect her to be descended from many British noble houses, at least not recently.
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  #414  
Old 05-17-2017, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
The Queen is not descended from Georgiana Cavendish. She is related to her, albeit distantly; Diana is also related, a bit more closely.

Georgiana Cavendish was the daughter of John Spencer, 1st Earl Spencer. Diana's father, John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer, was the 1st Earl's 3x great-grandson. The 1st Earl's 2x great-grandfather, Henry Spencer, 1st Earl of Sunderland, was a common ancestor of the Queen, through her mother's family.

Georgiana's father-in-law, William Cavendish, 4th Duke of Devonshire, was also an ancestor of the Queen's through her mother.

Interestingly, Diana is descended from Georgiana's lover, Charles Grey, 2nd Earl Spencer. He and his wife were the 3x great-grandparents of Diana's father. He is not an ancestor of the Queen.

The Spencers are descended from the 1st Earl of Bessborough through a younger son. The Queen and DoE are not descended from any of the Ponsonbys as far as I know. I've never been interested in Princess Michael enough to research her ancestry, although from what I understand her family was from the Continent and therefore I wouldn't expect her to be descended from many British noble houses, at least not recently.
The 1st Earl of S. was a common ancestor of The Queen & Diana?
And, someone said, on a different post here, that Princess Michael is of the Austrian nobility (she's a Baroness by birth; her mother was a Countess (I believe), and her grandmother, a Princess), and they say Prncss. Michael "has more royal blood" than the Windsors.
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  #415  
Old 05-17-2017, 11:07 AM
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The Queen Mother's family descends from the 1st Earl of Sunderland. I don't remember the line off the top of my head, but I can get it for you later.

Anyone who says that Princess Michael (or Diana for that matter) has "more royal blood" than the Queen or DoE is wrong.

The Queen is the daughter and granddaughter of Kings. She can trace her lineage back to almost every single British/Scottish/English monarch that had surviving children. She can trace her ancestry back to most European royal families, and she doesn't have to go back lots of generations to do so.

The Queen's father was a King. Her paternal grandfather was a King. Her paternal grandmother was born a German princess. Her paternal grandfather's parents were a King and (at birth) a Danish princess.

Prince Philip has even more royal ancestry. While the Queen's ancestry mostly comes from her paternal side and Prince Philip's direct descent is a generation removed (he is the grandson of a King, but not the son of one), he has close royal ancestry on both his paternal and maternal sides.

The DoE's father was born a Greek and Danish prince; his parents were a King and (at birth) a Grand Duchess of Russia. The DoE's mother was born a German princess, whose parents were both German royals, and who was a great-granddaughter of Queen Victoria.

Princess Michael... her family was Austrian nobility, but not in a comparable way. Her maternal grandmother was a Princess of Windisch-Grätz... but it's hard to say that a woman descended from a lesser Austrian princely house is somehow more royal than a woman whose father was a king.
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  #416  
Old 05-17-2017, 11:17 AM
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Without going into all the details, but i don't think i'm far wrong in saying that Princess Michael isn't even the one with the "most royal blood" in her household...Prince Michael her husband has more royal ancestors afaik
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  #417  
Old 05-17-2017, 12:11 PM
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Very true!

Prince Michael's ancestry is actually a mix of the a Queen and DoE's - his paternal ancestry is the same as the Queen's (their fathers were brothers), and his mother was a cousin of the DoE.
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  #418  
Old 05-17-2017, 05:42 PM
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Princess Michael... her family was Austrian nobility, but not in a comparable way. Her maternal grandmother was a Princess of Windisch-Grätz... but it's hard to say that a woman descended from a lesser Austrian princely house is somehow more royal than a woman whose father was a king.
She never said that in the first place!

Her great-grandfather Prince Alfred III zu Windisch-Grätz was Prime-Minister of Austria-Hungary at the end of 19th century.
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  #419  
Old 05-17-2017, 05:49 PM
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And, someone said, on a different post here, that Princess Michael is of the Austrian nobility (she's a Baroness by birth; her mother was a Countess (I believe), and her grandmother, a Princess), and they say Prncss. Michael "has more royal blood" than the Windsors.
Plaese, be more precise when you try to interpret someone's words.

She never said that she has "more royal blood than the Windsors", but that she "has most royal blood of all members that married into the family since Prince Philipp."

And those two statements are not the same.

And to put it more simply, she is right about it. She indeed has. She never said that she is more royal than members of the Windsor dynasty by birth.
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  #420  
Old 05-17-2017, 09:05 PM
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Plaese, be more precise when you try to interpret someone's words.



She never said that she has "more royal blood than the Windsors", but that she "has most royal blood of all members that married into the family since Prince Philipp."



And those two statements are not the same.



And to put it more simply, she is right about it. She indeed has. She never said that she is more royal than members of the Windsor dynasty by birth.


Marc, please be more precise when you try to interpret someone's words.

Neither I nor QueenElizabeth2Fan have said that Princess Michael herself has made any such claims - my comment was in response to QueenElizabeth2Fan's comment, and QueenElizabeth2Fan's comment referenced something others have said, not Princess Michael herself. And it has been erroneously reported that she is more royal than the Queen - which is something that has been reported so much that Princess Michael herself has addressed it in interviews.
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