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  #361  
Old 11-05-2013, 12:12 PM
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Thanks for the info.
Also were Queen Victoria and Christian related?
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  #362  
Old 11-05-2013, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
Thanks for the info.
Also were Queen Victoria and Christian related?
According to wikipedia they were third cousins..
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  #363  
Old 11-05-2013, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
Quick question: Was Queen Victoria related to Christian IX? And is QEII related to him as well?
Victoria and Christian were both descended from George II and Caroline of Ansbach.

Victoria:
  1. George II and Caroline of Ansbach
  2. Frederick, Prince of Wales
  3. George III
  4. Prince Edward, Duke of Kent and Strathearn
  5. Victoria
Christian
  1. George II and Caroline of Ansbach
  2. Princess Louise of Great Britain
  3. Princess Louise of Denmark
  4. Princess Louise Caroline of Hesse-Cassel
  5. Christian IX
In addition to the Queen being descended from both (Christian's daughter, Alexandra, having married Victoria's son and heir, Edward VII), the DoE is also descended from both. He descends from Victoria in a maternal line (Victoria -> Princess Alice of Great Britain -> Princess Victoria of Hesse and by Rhine -> Princess Alice of Battenberg -> the DoE) and from Christian in a paternal line (Christian -> George I of Greece -> Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark -> the DoE).
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  #364  
Old 05-25-2014, 02:51 PM
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So, because I evidently have too much free time on my hands, I decided to trace the lineage of Prince George of Cambridge.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xdcgv4oxf9...Ancestors.xlsx

In order to open the Excel spreadsheet you need Microsoft 2007 or newer. It will want you to download it (there are no viruses attached), and it's a large file so it can be a bit slow to open. Because of the size I'm not able to upload it to Google Docs or Skydrive in a way that will enable you to open it without downloading it, but I might to a condensed version of the tree later on that is more Internet friendly.

A good part of the reasoning behind my decision to do this tree was the argument that Diana and the Spencer family is in some way more "royal" or more "British" than Charles and his family. I wanted to come to some kind of conclusion as to whether or not this is really true.

In collecting this information I used Wikipedia and The Peerage thoroughly, but no additional sources. The way I went through this was to click through all of George's ancestors on Wikipedia, adding each one until I hit a dead end, then repeating the procress on the Peerage. I know that there are people missing, but I think I got most of George's ancestors (and to go through it all again to find any missing people could literally end up being months of extra work which I'm not interested in doing at this time). For the most part, I accepted the lineage as presented by Wikipedia when there were conflicts, unless either the Peerage one made more sense or lead down a more interesting path.

For the most part, I tried to present places in English, although I wasn't always successful, and I varied in my use of name spellings (I prefered the English ones for more recent people, but not always for older people). The only titles that I included were British ones, the rest are rendered simply as "of". That said, a number of individuals (primarily monarchs, but also nobles and other people who are of note in my opinion) have been highlighted, and the additional tabs note who these people are, how many children they each had, and how many of their children George descends from, as well as which way he descends from them in - be it through his paternal great-grandparents or his maternal grandparents, of which each has a colour-coded line.

I chose to highlight the monarchs who are the most recent royal ancestors of George - namely the British, Danish, and Russian monarchs. In the case of the British and Russian monarchs, I also highlighted the realms that immediately precededed them - in the case of the British, I went further by also highlighting the additional houses that came into play in English and Scottish history (the exception being the Hanovers and Saxe-Coburg and Gothas, as those titles changed too frequently before merging with the British crown for me to keep track of). I chose not to add a specific highlight to the Greek monarchs, as George is only descended from one of them, although I did count George I of Greece in the overall monarch count. Similarly, I also highlighted the two Earldoms from which George most recently descends - Strathmore and Kinghorne and Spencer - as well as their various predecessors.

The others that I highlighted include the children of Edward III and John of Gaunt who survived to adulthood, the various claimants to the Scottish throne during the Wars of the Scottish Independence, the people who bridged the gaps between British monarchs, nobles and royals who are now known most for having had a large number of children, two English consorts of extra significance in my opinion (and who had multiple husbands), and other people of historic significance. I also flagged Mary Boleyn. I chose to assume that her husband was the father of both of her children, and not Henry VIII, but I wanted to highlight her just in case Henry was in fact the father. If he fathered either of her children, then George is a descendant of Henry through his paternal grandmother, and if Henry fathered specifically Mary's daughter then George is also descended from him through his paternal grandfather.

In drawing up my conclusions I looked at the monarchs of 25 different realms (for a total of 945 monarchs), who were kings or emperors. I tried to look specifically at realms that appeared frequently in any of the Mountbatten, Windsor, and Spencer lines. With the exception of the Russians and Greeks, I didn't count any realms where only a few monarchs appear in the tree, but not many. The reason why I chose to include the Greek and Russian monarchs is because of their recent relationship to Prince Philip. As such, this does give a bit of extra weight to the Mountbatten line - this inclusion gives him 10 extra monarchs.

With this in mind, of the 945 total monarchs possible, Prince Philip descends from 394 of them (384 without the extra 10), HM from 387, Earl Spencer from 372, Frances Roche from 253, Michael Middleton from 174, and Carole Goldsmith from 191. As such, I would conclude that Diana's father was from an ancestry that was about as royal as either of Charles' parents, although not as recent and not from as senior of a line. I would not conclude that Diana herself was as royal in ancestry as Charles, though, as her mother's line is considerably less royal in origin.

Narrowing that, I looked specifically at the monarchs from Great Britain - the British, English, Scottish, Welsh, and Wessex monarchs. There, out of 156 possible monarchs, the Mountbatten line descends from 64, the Windsors 70 (including HM), the Spencers 65, the Roches 56, the Middletons 45, and the Goldsmiths 46. In this, Earl Spencer narrowly beats out Prince Philip - the Earl was descended from 1 more English and 1 more Scottish monarchs than the Prince, while the Prince is descended from 1 more British monarch than the Earl. Of the 12 British monarchs that George descends from, 8 of them are through his paternal grandfather, 3 through his paternal grandmother, and 1 (James I) through both.

Interestingly, though, while the Queen may be descended from more British monarchs, Earl Spencer is descended from more of the children of these monarchs. Out of a possible 603 (acknowledged/recorded) children, George descends from 158 of them; 111 through the Mountbatten line, 139 through the Windsors, 142 the Spencers, 96 the Roches, 62 the Middletons, and 67 the Goldsmiths. This does not necessarily mean that Earl Spencer had more lines of descent from British monarchs than the Queen, just that he descended from more individual children than the Queen. The difference appears in how many grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc, each would descend from. A quick example of this would be that George descends from Christian IX of Denmark through two different children - George I of Greece and Alexandra of Denmark. As Christian IX is a descendant of George II of Great Britain, this gives George of Cambridge two lines of descent to George II, through 1 child.

I'm not sure if I agree with the statement that Diana was more British in ancestry than Charles. Both have a lot of ancestors who were lived in Britain, both have a lot of ancestors who didn't. Both also have a lot of ancestors who weren't born in Britain but later immigrated there and died there. Is someone like Queen Victoria, who had many close ancestors from Germany but herself was born in, raised in, and died in England, to be considered German or English? How about Mary of Teck, who like her grandmother-in-law was born in and would die in Britain, but was "of" a Germanic state and had German ancestors (as well as a fair share of British ones)? I think there's a lot more that is British about the House of Windsor than (some) people like to admit, and the whole idea that they are some how not British but German is really just xenophobia and Germanophobia.

An interesting thing that I noticed in this project was that the Queen is descended from 2 pre-Hanoverian monarchs that her father weren't descended from from, Henry IV of England and Alexander II of Scotland. In turn, William is descended from 3 pre-Hanoverian monarchs that his paternal family aren't descended from, Charles I, Charles II, and James II. This means that the only English or British monarch who has confirmed descendants alive today that William and George aren't descended from would be William IV. There are a few Welsh monarchs who do not appear in this as ancestors of George, had children, and may have known living descendants today, including Rhodri ab Owain Gwynedd who does have living descendants. There are 4 Scottish monarchs who do not appear as ancestors of George, had children, and may have known living descendants today.
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  #365  
Old 05-25-2014, 03:23 PM
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I don't have time to look at it now. But I will, later. Wonderful work, Ish!

Sent from my GT-I9300 using The Royals Community mobile app
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  #366  
Old 05-25-2014, 03:35 PM
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Thanks! I look forward to your comments.
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  #367  
Old 05-25-2014, 03:49 PM
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It sounds like a phenomenal piece of research, so thank you Ish.

Im settling down tomorrow for a detail look.

quick question, does this include all ancestors or just those in the legitimate line?

Thanks again
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  #368  
Old 05-25-2014, 04:06 PM
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It includes all ancestors, both legitimate and illegitimate lines.

There are a few points when a married woman had a child who may not have been fathered by her husband. In this case, if the child was acknowledged by another man then I listed him as the father, but if the child wasn't (and we just assume that someone else may have been the father) then I listed the husband.

So, for example, I put Ernest Augustus of Hanover as the father of Sophia Von Kielmansegg, as she was acknowledged as his daughter in court. However, I put William Carey as the father of Mary Boleyn's children, as he acknowledged them as such, while Henry VIII did not.
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  #369  
Old 05-27-2014, 05:51 PM
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Cepe, you might be interested to know that it also includes a couple legendary lines; through his descent from the kings of Wessex George's 52x-great-grandfather is Woden, and through his descent from the Princes of Wales George's 51x-great-grandfather is King Arthur.
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  #370  
Old 05-27-2014, 06:09 PM
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So, because I evidently have too much free time on my hands, I decided to trace the lineage of Prince George of Cambridge.
Very impressive, Ish; what a lot of work! Thank you for sharing with us.
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  #371  
Old 05-28-2014, 10:58 AM
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Ish

Ive looked at it and I understand the royal family side of it (I hope) but I dont get the Middleton numbers at all. I might be misunderstanding it, ie how/who do the Middleton and Goldsmith lines have a link to Alfred the Great?

Im doing something wrong?????
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  #372  
Old 05-28-2014, 03:05 PM
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Kate's become somewhat of a genealogical focal point in recent years, with people determined to find her royal ancestors. It's pretty much a fact that if you're of British descent you're going to end up with a royal ancestor at some point, it's just a matter of being able to make all the connections. Actually, I'm going to amend that statement; it's pretty much a fact that if you're of European descent then you're going to end up with royal European ancestors at some point, you just have to make the connections.

I've noted two lines for Catherine's family, one for the Middletons and one for the Goldsmiths, although both are debated in their validity. There are other alleged lines, but they seem to be more discredited so I didn't include them.

The Middleton line was first published by William Addams Reitwiesner in 2011 and goes as follows:
  1. Michael Middleton
  2. Peter Middleton
  3. Olive Lupton
  4. Francis Lupton
  5. Frances Greenhow
  6. Elizabeth Martineau
  7. Thomas Martineau
  8. Sarah Meadows
  9. Philip Meadows
  10. Sarah Fairfax
  11. Benjamin Fairfax
  12. Benjamin Fairfax
  13. John Fairfax
  14. William Fairfax
  15. Anne Gascoigne
  16. Sir William Gascoigne
  17. Joan Neville
  18. John Neville
  19. Mary Ferrers
  20. Joan Beaufort
  21. John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster
  22. Edward III
The Goldsmith line was first put forward by Christopher Challender Child, then later by Patrick Cracroft-Brennan and Anthony Adolph, and it goes as follows:
  1. Carole Goldsmith
  2. Dorothy Harrison
  3. Thomas Harrison
  4. John Harrison
  5. Jane Liddell
  6. Anthony Liddell
  7. Jane Hardy
  8. Jane Conyers
  9. Sir Thomas Conyers, 9th Baronet
  10. Sir Ralph Conyers, 5th Baronet
  11. John Conyers
  12. John Conyers
  13. John Conyers, 1st Baronet
  14. Christopher Conyers of Horden
  15. Isabel Lumley
  16. Roger Lumley
  17. Elizabeth FitzRoy
  18. Edward IV
John Conyers, 1st Baronet's mother is also descended from Elizabeth FitzRoy:
  1. John Conyers, 1st Baronet
  2. Anne Hedworth
  3. John Hedworth
  4. Anne Hilton
  5. Sybil Lumley
  6. Elizabeth FitzRoy
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  #373  
Old 05-28-2014, 05:30 PM
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Thanks Ish.

IS this level of detail actually on the spreadsheet cos I couldn't see it - but I've missed a complete nights sleep so apologies if I'm wrong.

Its an amazing piece of work. I knew about the "woden" heritage but my knowledeof other European links, ie Danish/Russian is v limited.

Cheers
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  #374  
Old 05-28-2014, 05:50 PM
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That level of detail is in the actual spreadsheet, but it can get a bit tedious to go through so I couldn't fault you for missing it.

You'll notice that every person has 2 numbers beside their name, one 5 digit number (William's is 00001) and one that has 3 digits after a decimal (William's is 1.001).

The 5 digit number is a number unique to each person, and if it's highlighted then that person appears multiple times in the sheet. If you search for it then you'll find all occurrences of that person within the sheet.

The second number I called the generational number. The number before the decimal is the number of generations removed from George (he's generation 0, his parents are 1) and the number after it is a unique number for each person within that generation. If this number is highlighted then it means that the person repeats throughout that generation.

In order to see how some people within the chart descend from others you have to do a bit of searching, as I tried not to duplicate lines - for instance, I traced HM's line back to Queen Victoria and Prince Albert, but I didn't trace their ancestry in that instance since I'd earlier done it when I traced the DoE's line back to them. In order to follow that line you have to search for Victoria.

The easy way to do that is to press ctrl+f, expand options and change it to "look in" values instead of formulas, then enter the 5 digit number and press "find all." The first instance of the person will have their line.
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  #375  
Old 05-28-2014, 05:56 PM
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I'll tackle this tomorrow. Im going to try and sleep tonight. Fingers crossed


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  #376  
Old 05-28-2014, 05:57 PM
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Good luck with that.
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  #377  
Old 05-29-2014, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
So, because I evidently have too much free time on my hands, I decided to trace the lineage of Prince George of Cambridge.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xdcgv4oxf9...Ancestors.xlsx
Wow!
That is a lot more extensive than the tree I made.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...=sharing#gid=6
I combined the trees of Queen Elizabeth (Queen Mother), Diana and Catherine.
Well done.
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  #378  
Old 05-29-2014, 02:16 PM
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SLV, I always love your work. Have you thought about combining your HMQM/Diana/Catherine chart and the Diana/Camilla/Sarah chart?

At some point, I'd like to go on and do a similar charts for the Yorks, Wessex, and Phillips families. I figure know that I have the basis for the chart done with the Mountbatten-Windsor lines, it won't be too much work to alter it to allow for the Ferguson-Wright, Rhys-Jones-O'Sullivan, Phillips-Tiarks (and of course the Kelly-McCarthy and Tindall-Shepherd) lines. Of course, "it won't be too much work" are fatal last words.

Currently I'm going through and making edits to my Johan Willem Friso lines of descent; once I've got him tidied up a bit, I plan on uploading a few lines, similar to what I did with Queen Victoria last year. Hopefully that'll be done in the next couple days.
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  #379  
Old 05-30-2014, 06:07 AM
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SLV, I always love your work. Have you thought about combining your HMQM/Diana/Catherine chart and the Diana/Camilla/Sarah chart?
I think, with the way I set up the charts, that this would not be possible due to too many crossing lines.
I'll look into it.

Quote:
Currently I'm going through and making edits to my Johan Willem Friso lines of descent; once I've got him tidied up a bit, I plan on uploading a few lines, similar to what I did with Queen Victoria last year. Hopefully that'll be done in the next couple days.
A while ago I was working on the J-W-F line. I wanted to find all the Royal families descending from him. But I haven't had much time yet. I got some nice examples of inter-family-marriages amongst the children of William the Silent, though.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ive_web#gid=10
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Old 05-30-2014, 09:34 AM
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Combining the two charts is not going to work. In order to stick them together I have to get the Diana line in the DCS-chart as the top row.
All three ladies are descendants of Charles II by his mistresses.
Camilla - Louise Renée de Penancoet de Kérouaille
Diana - Louise Renée de Penancoet de Kérouaille and Barbara Villiers
Sarah - Louise Renée de Penancoet de Kérouaille, Barbara Villiers and Lucy Walter

If you copy the chart into an Excell-sheet and zoom out, you can see why it doesn't work. Diana is stuck in the middle between Camilla and Sarah.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...rive_web#gid=4

Adding onto the J-W-Friso line. So many nice connections and cross-connections. That's what I love about doing this.
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