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  #221  
Old 08-06-2013, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp, which Prince Philip is a member of, is a cadet branch of the older House of Oldenburg.
I think you might have mistaken the lines

The members of Gottorp line became Grand Dukes of Oldenburg and they still exist today...

However,the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg line were once Schleswig-Holstein-Beck line which again has descended from the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Plön line...and this Plön line has descended from Duke Johan of S-H-S-Plön,who was the younger son of King Christian III of Denmark

The first Duke from Holstein-Gottorp line was Duke August and he was an uncle of Duke Johann von S-H-S-Ploen...

So the family lines of Prince Philipp would look like this:

Counts von Oldenburg
I
Kings of Denamrk
I
Dukes of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Plön
I
Dukes of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck
I
Dukes of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg
I
Kings of Denamark
I
Kings of Greece
I
Prince Philipp



This is the line of Holstein-Gottorp Dukes that became Grand Dukes of Olednburg:

Counts of Oldenburg
I
Kings of Denmark
I
Dukes of Holstein-Gottorp
I
Grand Dukes of Oldenburg


By showing this you will see that the Holstein-Gottorp male line is not the same and doesn't have anything to do with the Glücksburg line,except that they are two different branches of the same House...House of Oldenburg
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  #222  
Old 08-06-2013, 01:38 PM
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You're right of course. I think I was just flipping back and forth between too many tabs and typoed.

HM is a member of the House of Windsor as the British branch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, which itself is a cadet branch of the House of Wettin.

The DoE belongs to the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, also known as the House of Glücksburg, which is a cadet branch of the House of Oldenburg.

Their children and male-line grandchildren belong to the House of Windsor as the British branch of the House of Glücksburg.
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  #223  
Old 08-06-2013, 04:23 PM
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I agree :) You couldn't have put it better
.
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  #224  
Old 08-06-2013, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
I agree :) You couldn't have put it better
Thanks!

The question becomes then, if children only belong to the house of their father, then what happens if the father doesn't belong to a House?

The children of Princess Anne don't belong to the House of Windsor, because Mark Philips wasn't a Windsor. As they're not royals themselves, it's not a big deal. But with equal primogeniture and the fact that royals don't always (or even usually) marry other royals, then with time we're going to end up with a monarch who doesn't belong to a House (or is creating a new House).

We see this in Sweden. Victoria belongs to her father's House, the House of Bernadotte, but what House does Daniel (and by extension Estelle) belong to?

And what house does Mark Phillips belong to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homme View Post
Phillips , I would guess
Houses are a royal construct. Non-royals who are not male-line descendants from a Royal do not belong to a House.

Mark Phillips is not a male-line descendant from any royal, therefore he does not belong to a House. As he does not belong to a House, his children do not belong to one either, despite the fact that their mother, Anne, belongs to the House of Windsor.

My question is what happens in the 21st Century when an individual who has a royal mother and a non-royal father comes to the throne - do they take the House of their mother, or do they create a new House? If Peter Phillips were to come to the throne, would the Royal House become the House of Phillips, with Peter as it's first member, or would he be a part of his mother's House, the Windsors?
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  #225  
Old 08-06-2013, 07:15 PM
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The naming of the [Royal] House is at the discretion of the Monarch. In Britain it can be done simply by a Royal Proclamation.
In Sweden I'd imagine that the future Queen Estelle would continue use of Bernadotte as the House and Family name.
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  #226  
Old 08-07-2013, 06:56 AM
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Yes, I believe so. Because at the time if the marriage of V&D, it was announced that Daniel had added Bernadotte to his own surname. So Estelle could use her fathers name and still be a Bernadotte.
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  #227  
Old 08-07-2013, 12:22 PM
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But, there are no actual laws about the use of the word "House" in Britain or anywhere else, are there?
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  #228  
Old 08-07-2013, 04:20 PM
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A Royal or Princely House isn't a physical construct but more a traditional designator of an important family. Anyone can say they belong to, for example "The House of Smith", but who would take any notice?

The rules of a Royal or Princely House are treated differently in different countries. In Germany they have been held by the Courts to be an internal family matter; in Liechtenstein the rules governing the Princely House form part of the Liechtenstein Constitution; in the Netherlands there is a distinction between membership of the Royal House and membership of the Royal Family, the former being determined by Parliament; while in Britain whatever rules govern the House of Windsor (apart from Parliamentary requirements such as the Act of Settlement, the Royal Marriages Act etc) are at the discretion of the Sovereign.
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  #229  
Old 08-07-2013, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
We see this in Sweden. Victoria belongs to her father's House, the House of Bernadotte, but what House does Daniel (and by extension Estelle) belong to?
Since 2010 Daniel has I believe been Daniel Westling av Bernadotte so Estelle is a Bernadotte on both sides.
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  #230  
Old 08-09-2013, 07:55 PM
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The Queen: Is she related to....?

Is the Queen related to one of these people:

--Deborah Mitford
--Mary I
--Any other super famous celebrities besides these (I have seen a list of 30 famous people the Queen is related to. Some included Olivia de Havilland, George HW Bush, Olympia Dukakis...
--Queen Christina of Sweden

If I can think of anymore, I'll post them. I specialize specifically in QEII's ancestry.
If anyone else loves looking through the Queen's genealogy, it would be appreciated if you comment :)
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  #231  
Old 08-09-2013, 08:21 PM
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If by Mary I you mean the daughter of Henry VIII or Bloody Mary the answer is yes.

The Queen is a descendent of Henry VIII's sister so a descendent of Mary I's aunt Margaret and cousin James V and second cousin Mary, Queen of Scots:

Henry VII - Margaret - James V of Scotland - Mary, Queen of Scots - James I and VI - Elizabeth, The Winter Queen - Sophia, Electress of Hanover - George I - George II - Frederick, Prince of Wales - George III - Edward, Duke of Kent - Victoria - Edward VII - George V - George VI - Elizabeth.
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  #232  
Old 08-09-2013, 10:25 PM
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Yep, indeed I meant Elizabeth I's half-sister Mary. Thanks for the reply :)

New people I remembered, in terms of relations:

--Thomas Jefferson
--Katharine Hepburn (who is related to her similar surname-sake James, the 4th Earl Bothwell, and who is one of my favorite actresses)
--I also did work myself to trace Grace Kelly's ancestry. Grace and Elizabeth II are 43rd cousins I believe; I forget their common ancestor as I did the trace over 2 years ago.
--Lucille Ball (she is directly related to George Washington--she even said it directly, but her grandfather told her about 'our Washington blood!' as his mother was Mary Ball)
Can anyone find out the validity of my sources? As I cannot.

However--on Wikipedia it says Deborah Mitford's great-great grandfather was William Mitford, historian.

And:
Also I saw the thread on the former Princess of Wales' geneaology.
Is anyone else related to her ancestors, that (as one poster said) make her ancestry more powerful than the Windsors'?

Also--I've heard that when one is married, one takes on their spouse's ancestors as their own; like their union as a couple makes their individual ancestors become combined in one whole family tree.
Thoughts?
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  #233  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post

And:
Also I saw the thread on the former Princess of Wales' geneaology.
Is anyone else related to her ancestors, that (as one poster said) make her ancestry more powerful than the Windsors'?

Also--I've heard that when one is married, one takes on their spouse's ancestors as their own; like their union as a couple makes their individual ancestors become combined in one whole family tree.
Thoughts?
No & No to both.
Your ancestors are your own as is your DNA. Only the children inherit the ancestors and DNA.
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  #234  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
Also I saw the thread on the former Princess of Wales' geneaology.
Is anyone else related to her ancestors, that (as one poster said) make her ancestry more powerful than the Windsors'?
The basic idea there is that Diana was descended from more, or at least more recent, non-British royals than the Queen or Charles.

This isn't entirely accurate. Diana's origins are far more British than the Queen's or Charles', and in a few cases she's descended from a more recent monarch through a junior or illegitimate line than the Windsors, but by and large her ancestors are of a far more humble nature. In the cases where she is descended from a more recent monarch than the Windsors descend from (i.e. pre-Glorious Revolution Brits, the French, Elector Palatinate) it's only by one or two generations. It also doesn't take into account that in Charles' case he's descended from a lot of royals on his mother's side, he's also descended from a lot of royals on his father's side.
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  #235  
Old 08-10-2013, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
This isn't entirely accurate.
What were you referring to by 'this'? What you were saying about the thread?

Quote:
Diana's origins are far more British than the Queen's or Charles', and in a few cases she's descended from a more recent monarch through a junior or illegitimate line than the Windsors, but by and large her ancestors are of a far more humble nature. In the cases where she is descended from a more recent monarch than the Windsors descend from (i.e. pre-Glorious Revolution Brits, the French, Elector Palatinate) it's only by one or two generations. It also doesn't take into account that in Charles' case he's descended from a lot of royals on his mother's side, he's also descended from a lot of royals on his father's side.
Very true indeed. So William & Harry take the cake--I'm happy for them genealogically because they have both Spencer & Windsor ancestry.
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  #236  
Old 08-10-2013, 01:08 AM
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Queen Christina and Queen Elizabeth II are related in several ways. Christina's grandmothers were Christina of Holstein-Gottorp and Anna, Duchess of Prussia. So her ancestors belonged to the same group of ducal and princely houses of northern Germany where Windsors have most of their ancestors.
One connection:
Christine of Hesse - Christina of Holstein-Gottorp - Gustav II Adolph - Queen Christina
Christine of Hesse - Sophia of Holstein-Gottorp - Adolf Frederick I of Mecklenburg-Shwerin - Adolf Frederick II of Mecklenburg-Shwerin - Adolf Frederick II of Mecklenburg-Strelitz - Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz (spouse of George III of Great Britain) - Prince Edward, Duke of Kent and Strathearn - Queen Victoria - Edward VII - George V - George VI - Queen Elizabeth II

Another connection is that Adolf Frederick II of Mecklenburg-Strelitz is also ancestor of Queen Alexandra, Queen Elizabeth's great-grandmother.

One connection through Charles IX of Sweden:
Charles IX - Gustav II Adolph - Queen Christina
Charles IX - Catherine of Sweden - Christina Magdalena of Palatine of Kleeburg - Johanna Elisabet of Palatinate-Zweibrucken - Margrave Johann Fredrich of Brandenburg-Ansbach - Caroline of Brandenburg-Ansbach (spouse of George II) - Frederick, Prince of Wales - George III - Prince Edward, Duke of Kent and Strathearn - Queen Victoria - Edward VII - George V - George VI - Queen Elizabeth II

And of course all connections through George III are also connections through Elizabeth II's grandmother Queen Mary
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  #237  
Old 08-10-2013, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post

What were you referring to by 'this'? What you were saying about the thread?
Yes, that's what I'd meant. Sorry for not better expressing myself there.

Quote:
Very true indeed. So William & Harry take the cake--I'm happy for them genealogically because they have both Spencer & Windsor ancestry.
Charles has Spencer ancestry as well. The Queen Mother had Churchill, Spencer, and Despencer ancestors, just no where near as recent as Diana.
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  #238  
Old 08-13-2013, 01:06 AM
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Questions on my new finds on the Duke's genealogy

So, I was doing a Google search on Elizabeth II's genealogy.
I came across the site The Ancestry Of H.R.H. Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge and clicked on it.
It said that William is the ancestor of the 3rd Earl of Northumberland--but I don't know through which parent that relation is connected.
I looked up the 3rd Earl on Wikipedia, and found out that his wife's mother was the widow of the 13th Earl of Arundel...

So I started doing some genealogical tracing, and taking my own notes.

These were the notes I took:
(Source--Wikipedia)

The 3rd Earl of Northumberland is an ancestor of either Prince William, Duke of Cambridge or Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge (Prince William).
He was also the son of the 2nd Earl of Northumberland.
The 3rd Earl is an ancestor of Prince George of Cambridge, William & Catherine's son and heir.
Also, the 3rd Earl's wife's mother was the widow of John FitzAlan, the 13th Earl of Arundel.•
The 13th Earl's great-grandfather is a Despencer; the Despencer's--who later took the surname Spencer; the Spencers are the ancestral family of Diana, Princess of Wales.

•The first Earls...

--Earls #1-5; the 2nd Earl was the son of the 1st; the 3rd the son of the 2nd; 4th the son of #3; #5 son of the 4th.
--The 6th Earl was the nephew of the 5th. The 7th the son of the 6th. The 8th the son of the 7th, 9th the son of the 8th, 10th the son of the 9th, and the 11th his second son, but his first from his marriage to his second wife, Eleanor of Lancaster. The 12th was the son of the 11th.
--The 13th Earl of Arundel was the cousin of the 12th Earl; the 13th became the next Earl since the 12th Earl of Arundel left no male heirs. The 14th was the son of the 13th.
--The 15th Earl was the son of the 14th, but he died young. The 16th was the brother of the 14th Earl.
The 17th the son of the 16th; the 18th, son of the 17th; the 19th, son of the 18th, however, the 19th left no male heirs.
--The 20th Earl of Arundel was the grandson of the 19th. The 21st was the son of the 20th. The 22nd, the son of the 21st; however, the 22nd decided that his son and heir, the 5th Duke of Norfolk, would hold the title the 5th Duke of Norfolk, along with 23rd Earl of Arundel--thus, the new title was 5th Duke of Norfolk.••

••Dukes of Norfolk:

--The 5th Duke of Norfolk died without any children. The 6th Duke was the brother of the 5th. The 7th Duke was the son of the 6th, but he left no issue.
--The 8th Duke of Norfolk was the nephew of the 7th. The 9th was the brother of the 8th, but had no male heirs.
--The 10th Duke of Norfolk was the cousin of the 9th Duke. The 11th was the son of the 10th.
--The 12th Duke was the cousin of the 11th; the 13th was the son of the 12th; the 14th, son of the 13th; the 15th, son of the 14th; the 16th, the son of the 15th Duke from the 15th's second marriage.
--The 17th Duke was the cousin of the 16th; the 18th, the son of the 17th. The 18th Duke of Norfolk's heir is his son Henry Miles Fitzalan-Howard. Henry is unmarried, 25 years old, and has no children.


Anyway, back to the Dukes of Northumberland:
•••The 1st Duke of Northumberland's wife's grandfather was Joceline Percy, 11th Earl of Northumberland. He was the final Earl of Northumberland; however, his granddaughter's husband was created 2nd Earl of Northumberland in the 5th creation of that same title.



Here are my questions....

1) Should I post my information under the Ancestry tab on the Prince's Wikipedia article?
And...
2) Through what parent is the Prince related to the 3rd Earl of Northumberland?
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  #239  
Old 08-13-2013, 02:10 AM
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1) No. Both William and George are descended from a lot of different people, and if their Wikipedia pages were to try to cover all of them then the Ancestry page would become too overwhelming. Both pages both touch on the major ancesters that the Princes descend from.

2. There are a few lines.

The first one:

- Prince George of Cambridge
- Prince William, Duke of Cambridge
- Charles, Prince of Wales
- Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom
- Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon
- Claude Bowes-Lyon, 14th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne
- Claude Bowes-Lyon, 13th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne
- Thomas George Lyon-Bowes, Lord Glamis
- Thomas Lyon-Bowes, 11th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne
- John Bowes, 9th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne
- Thomas Lyon, 8th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne
- Elizabeth Stanhope
- Philip Stanhope, 2nd Earl of Chesterfield
- Henry Stanhope, Lord Stanhope
- Catherine Hastings
- Francis Hastings, Lord Hastings
- George Hastings, 2rd Earl of Huntingdon
- Francis Hastings, 2nd Earl of Huntigndon
- George Hastings, 1st Earl of Huntingdon
- Mary Hungerford
- Anne Percy
- Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland
- Sir Henry Percy
- Henry Percy, 1st Earl of Northumberland

The second one:

- Prince George of Cambridge
- Prince William, Duke of Cambridge
- Charles, Prince of Wales
- Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom
- Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon
- Cecilia Cavendish-Bentinck
- Reverend Charles Cavendish-Bentinck
- Lord Charles Cavendish-Bentinck
- William Cavendish-Bentinck, 3rd Duke of Portland
- Margaret Cavendish-Harley
- Henrietta Cavendish-Holles
- John Holles, 1st Duke of Newcastle
- Grace Pierrepont
- William Pierrepont
- Gertrude Talbot
- Henry Talbot
- George Talbot, 6th Earl of Shrewsbury
- Mary Dacre
- Elizabeth Greystoke, 6th Baroness Greystoke
- Elizabeth Grey
- Katherine Percy
- Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland
- Sir Henry Percy
- Henry Percy, 1st Earl of Northumberland

The third one:

- Prince George of Cambridge
- Prince William, Duke of Cambridge
- Charles, Prince of Wales
- Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom
- Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon
- Cecilia Cavendish-Bentinck
- Reverend Charles Cavendish-Bentinck
- Lord Charles Cavendish-Bentinck
- Dorothy Cavendish
- William Cavendish, 4th Duke of Devonshire
- William Cavendish, 3rd Duke of Devonshire
- William Cavendish, 2nd Duke of Devonshire
- William Cavendish, 1st Duke of Devonshire
- Elizabeth Cecil
- Catherine Howard
- Thomas Howard, 1st Earl of Suffolk
- Thomas Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk
- Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey
- Elizabeth Stafford
- Eleanor Percy
- Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland
- Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland
- Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland
- Sir Henry Percy
- Henry Percy, 1st Earl of Northumberland

The fourth one:

- Prince George of Cambridge
- Prince William, Duke of Cambridge
- Charles, Prince of Wales
- Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom
- Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon
- Cecilia Cavendish-Bentinck
- Reverend Charles Cavendish-Bentinck
- Lord Charles Cavendish-Bentinck
- Dorothy Cavendish
- Charlotte Elizabeth Boyle, 6th Baroness Clifford
- Richard Boyle, 3rd Earl of Burlington
- Charles Boyle, 2nd Earl of Burlington
- Charles Boyle, 3rd Viscount Dungarvan
- Elizabeth Clifford
- Henry Clifford, 5th Earl of Cumberland
- Francis Clifford, 4th Earl of Cumberland
- Henry Clifford, 2nd Earl of Cumberland
- Margaret Percy
- Henry Percy, 5th Earl of Northumberland
- Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland
- Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland
- Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland
- Sir Henry Percy
- Henry Percy, 1st Earl of Northumberland

The fifth one:

- Prince George of Cambridge
- Prince William, Duke of Cambridge
- Charles, Prince of Wales
- Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom
- Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon
- Cecilia Cavendish-Bentinck
- Reverend Charles Cavendish-Bentinck
- Lord Charles Cavendish-Bentinck
- Dorothy Cavendish
- Charlotte Elizabeth Boyle, 6th Baroness Clifford
- Dorothy Savile
- William Savile, 2nd Marquess of Halifax
- Dorothy Spencer
- Dorothy Sidney
- Dorothy Percy
- Henry Percy, 9th Earl of Northumberland
- Henry Percy, 8th Earl of Northumberland
- Sir Thomas Percy
- Henry Percy, 5th Earl of Northumberland
- Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland
- Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland
- Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland
- Sir Henry Percy
- Henry Percy, 1st Earl of Northumberland

The sixth one:

- Prince George of Cambridge
- Prince William, Duke of Cambridge
- Diana Spencer
- John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer
- Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer
- Charles Spencer, 6th Earl Spencer
- Frederick Spencer, 4th Earl Spencer
- George Spencer, 2nd Earl Spencer
- John Spencer, 1st Earl Spencer
- John Spencer
- Charles Spencer, 3rd Earl of Sunderland
- Robert Spencer, 2nd Earl of Sunderland
- Dorothy Spencer
- Dorothy Sidney
- Dorothy Percy
- Henry Percy, 9th Earl of Northumberland
- Henry Percy, 8th Earl of Northumberland
- Sir Thomas Percy
- Henry Percy, 5th Earl of Northumberland
- Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland
- Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland
- Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland
- Sir Henry Percy
- Henry Percy, 1st Earl of Northumberland

So, William is descended from the 1st Earl of Northumberland in at least six different lines. Five of those lines are through the Queen Mother (once through her father and four times through her mother), while the sixth line is through Diana.

He's also descended from the 1st Duke of Northumberland:
- Prince George of Cambridge
- Prince William, Duke of Cambridge
- Charles, Prince of Wales
- Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom
- Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon
- Cecilia Cavendish-Bentinck
- Reverend Charles Cavendish-Bentinck
- Lord Charles Cavendish-Bentinck
- Dorothy Cavendish
- Charlotte Elizabeth Boyle, 6th Baroness Clifford
- Dorothy Savile
- William Savile, 2nd Marquess of Halifax
- Dorothy Spencer
- Dorothy Sidney
- Robert Sidney, 2nd Earl of Liecester
- Robert Sidney, 1st Earl of Leicester
- Mary Dudley
- John Dudley, 1st Duke of Northumberland
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  #240  
Old 08-13-2013, 08:38 AM
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Hi Ish,

I didn't know he had five lines through Charles and one through Diana. But this also means (from my notes) that he's related to the Earls of Arundel as well? From the 13th all the way to the Dukes of Norfolk, correct?
Since I did find that the 3rd Earl's mother in-law was the 13th Earl of Arundel's widow.

But, technically, since Wills is related to the Dukes of Norfolk... What number relation are they to him?
(i.e. Twelfth cousin ten times removed)
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