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  #81  
Old 02-17-2016, 04:10 AM
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Actually this decision was made under King Baudouin's reign in 1991 when the succession law was changed. And probably it was not only the decision of the King but also the then government.
After further research, I stand corrected. Albert II is not as arrogant as I had originally assumed. At least King Philippe made a much needed adjustment in the Belgian Constitution concerning who can officially be HRH Prince/Princess of Belgium.
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Old 02-17-2016, 07:54 AM
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King Baudouin began to seriously search for a wife in the mid to late 50's. Unlike now, "equal" marriages were the rule at that time. The fact that he wanted a devout spouse from the aristocracy or a Royal is not necessarily a sign of snobbery. Belgium at that time was an uber conservative, Catholic country. Baudouin was a realist who was conscious of his duty.
Before Fabiola,there were plans for Baudouin to marry Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia(she was sister of Queen Marie-Jose's son in law),but she strongly opposed and ran away from home.
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Old 02-17-2016, 08:39 AM
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Is that story told by Princess Elizabeth? I have never heard it before. Considering Laeken and Baudouin were already under the very strong influence of the RC clergy, I doubt that an orthodox princess would be considered at the time.
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  #84  
Old 02-17-2016, 08:43 AM
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I read before that queen Victoria Eugenia of Spain wanted her granddaughter Infanta Pilar to marry Baudouin of Belgium and that is how he was introduced to Fabiola? (Hope I have that correct).
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  #85  
Old 02-17-2016, 08:44 AM
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[...]

Baudoin was a pious and devout Catholic, but also believed titled people should only marry titled people. He was an elitist, from what I have read (and therefore what I base my opinion on), and would have never consider marrying a pious, devout commoner Roman Catholic woman. [...]
Well... King Baudouin was not that elitist as you seem to portray him. To the standard of his days, King Baudouin made a mésalliance. He did not marry a lady from a royal or former royal House, he also did not marry a lady from a mediatized House, he also did not marry a lady of the highest nobility (daughters from Princes or Dukes).

He "just" married the daughter of a Spanish Conde. Not even from a Grande de España. So to portray King Baudouin as "elitist", hmmm... you do not have strong arguments to back that up, in my humble view. His brother Prince Albert (later King Albert II) also did not marry the usual royal princess or imperial archuchess one could expect. Only their sister Princess Joséphine-Charlotte of Belgium made a fully equal marriage with Prince Jean of Luxembourg, Prince de Nassau, Prince de Bourbon de Parme, the later Grand-Duke.
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  #86  
Old 02-17-2016, 08:54 AM
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Is that story told by Princess Elizabeth? I have never heard it before. Considering Laeken and Baudouin were already under the very strong influence of the RC clergy, I doubt that an orthodox princess would be considered at the time.
Yes,she told it herself several times in various interviews...

I don't think that religion would be a problem.Her brother Alexander was already married to a RC princess(his second wife is also a Catholic),who was Baudoin's first cousin,so changing religion for an exiled princess in exchange for being a Queen would not be a problem.
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  #87  
Old 02-17-2016, 09:08 AM
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I read before that queen Victoria Eugenia of Spain wanted her granddaughter Infanta Pilar to marry Baudouin of Belgium and that is how he was introduced to Fabiola? (Hope I have that correct).
According to some sources there was also a proposed match between King Baudouin of Belgium and Donna Sandra Torlonia dei principi di Civitella-Cesi,other granddaughter of Queen Victoria Eugenia.
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  #88  
Old 02-17-2016, 09:27 AM
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I read before that queen Victoria Eugenia of Spain wanted her granddaughter Infanta Pilar to marry Baudouin of Belgium and that is how he was introduced to Fabiola? (Hope I have that correct).

The memoirs of Leo Cardinal Suenens, Archbishop of Malines revealed that King Baudouin was brought in contact with Doña Fabiola via a shared interest in the Legion of Mary. At the time Leo Suenens was a priest and served as the King's tutor and confessor.

The priest heard about a charismatic Irish lady named Veronica O'Brien, a former nun, who was an activiste in the Legion of Mary. It was in Lourdes, during a Legion of Mary rally led by Veronica O'Brien, where the young King had the first encounter with Doña Fabiola de Mora y Aragón.
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  #89  
Old 02-17-2016, 09:28 PM
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JC, Jean, nor did Henri ever say MT'S assertion was a bizarre outburst - how do you defend blatant racism and snobbishness went brought out into the open? Assuredly, MT had to have some sort of proof, which is why JC could not defend herself against MT's allegations. All worked itself out only after MT'S press conference.

Baudoin was a pious and devout Catholic, but also believed titled people should only marry titled people. He was an elitist, from what I have read (and therefore what I base my opinion on), and would have never consider marrying a pious, devout commoner Roman Catholic woman.

I never stated that King B arranged for Astrid and Lorenz to meet. I would not say it was love at 1st site, as they casually had known each other for a few years prior to her 18th birthday party. Lorenz is about 7 years older than Astrid, so she was 18 and he was around 25 yo when she "noticed" him and vice versa.
Again I ask...what "blatant" proof are you referring to? MT's theatrics at a luncheon where she invited a room full of strangers-journalists no less-to listen to her teary rendition of "Belle Mere hates me because I am not Royal and I am an Hispanic?"

Is/was there corresponding eyewitness OUTSIDE testimony to J-C's alleged racism and bigotry other than her daughter-in-law's completely unprofessional display? Other family members? Journalists? Staff?

Grand Duke Jean's and her husband's silence on the matter don't mean they agreed with her at all. These were men who had been raised to believe-as many Royal and non Royal people-that private family disputes are not aired in public in front of complete strangers.

There is no way to know how they reacted in private to her behavior.

Baudouin and Albert both married aristocrats. Yet ironically, it is the alleged snobby bigot J-C who fell desperately in love with a commoner-a tennis player no less!!-and was denied the right to marry him by her parents.(Paul Belien "A Throne for Brussels)

MT's accusations against her mother-in-law might have merit...but then again they may not. There is reasonable doubt, is all I am saying here and there certainly is no certifiable proof. Maybe there was bad blood between the women and MT CHOSE to believe it was because her commoner status and her race as an Hispanic woman?

Interestingly, one of MT's disgruntled former employees is writing a book about HER alleging some rather unflattering things about her(something no one on JC's staff ever did btw). Maybe more light will be shed on her relationship with her late mother-in-law in this book...if it ever sees print which I doubt.


[[Before Fabiola,there were plans for Baudouin to marry Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia(she was sister of Queen Marie-Jose's son in law),but she strongly opposed and ran away from home.[//quote]]


Marc23,


Like Marengo I have never heard that one at all and I don't believe it. I doubt that Baudouin, more Catholic than the Pope, would have ever consented to marry Princess Elizabeth. Not only is she Orthodox, she was and is extremely worldly and sophisticated(JFK and Richard Burton are only two of her many documented lovers). In other words the exact opposite of Baudouin.


Other than her great beauty, I can see nothing about her that would have attracted him. They both dodged a bullet!
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  #90  
Old 02-18-2016, 01:35 AM
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Again I ask...what "blatant" proof are you referring to? MT's theatrics at a luncheon where she invited a room full of strangers-journalists no less-to listen to her teary rendition of "Belle Mere hates me because I am not Royal and I am an Hispanic?"

Is/was there corresponding eyewitness OUTSIDE testimony to J-C's alleged racism and bigotry other than her daughter-in-law's completely unprofessional display? Other family members? Journalists? Staff?

Grand Duke Jean's and her husband's silence on the matter don't mean they agreed with her at all. These were men who had been raised to believe-as many Royal and non Royal people-that private family disputes are not aired in public in front of complete strangers.

There is no way to know how they reacted in private to her behavior.

Baudouin and Albert both married aristocrats. Yet ironically, it is the alleged snobby bigot J-C who fell desperately in love with a commoner-a tennis player no less!!-and was denied the right to marry him by her parents.(Paul Belien "A Throne for Brussels)

MT's accusations against her mother-in-law might have merit...but then again it may not. There is reasonable doubt, is all I am saying here and there certainly is no certifiable proof. Maybe there was bad blood between the women and MT CHOSE to believe it was because her commoner status and her race as an Hispanic woman?

Interestingly, one of MT's disgruntled former employees is writing a book about HER alleging some rather unflattering things about her(something no one on JC's staff ever did btw). Maybe more light will be shed on her relationship with her late mother-in-law in this book...if it ever sees print which I doubt.


[[Before Fabiola,there were plans for Baudouin to marry Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia(she was sister of Queen Marie-Jose's son in law),but she strongly opposed and ran away from home.[//quote]]


Marc23,


Like Marengo I have never heard that one at all and I don't believe it. I doubt that Baudouin, more Catholic than the Pope, would have ever consented to marry Princess Elizabeth. Not only is she Orthodox, she was and is extremely worldly and sophisticated(JFK and Richard Burton are only two of her many documented lovers). In other words the exact opposite of Baudouin.


Other than her great beauty, I can see nothing about her that would have attracted him. They both dodged a bullet!
I did not say anything about blatant proof, said blatant "racism." I think MT' s theatrics we're out of sheer frustration. That doesn't mean I think MT is a saint...we all can tolerate situations/other people to a certain point. That includes both JC and MT and their tolerance of the other. Neither of us knows the reality of their relationship, and we both have formed opinions about it from a differing view. MT's press conference (a product of frustration), coupled with complete silence from her husband and from GD Jean, especially from Jean never uttering a word in defense of JC, leads me to opinion about the late GD. This may have been one aspect of JC's personality that her son and husband did not like. We can debate but will probably never agree, so let's not keep repeating our in opinions in different words.

Baudouin was devout and pious, but contrary to popular opinion, he was NOT perfect and did believe titled people were a step above everybody else. Again, just my opinion based on things I have read. Again, we can debate this subject but probably never agree. Again, let's not keep repeating the same sentiments in different words. :)
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  #91  
Old 02-18-2016, 02:24 AM
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The silence from Grand Duke Jean and other relatives about the matter does not need to mean anything at all. Most people don't like to show the public their dirty laundry.

JC supposedly sided with Henri and MT and persuaded her husband to accept the marriage. She was perhaps reminded of her own marriage, which was one of the last royal marriages that was forced upon the couple by their parents. Both were in love with somebody else at the time.

It was her own mother-in-law, Grand Duchess Charlotte, who was against it. Somehow people seem to mix this story with that of JC. The old Grand Duchess was so upset about the matter that the press was asked not to make pictures of her during the wedding. She turned around after the birth of Guillaume.

JC was in terrible pains from surgeries, chemo therapies etc. since the early nineties. On top of that, her stroke made her personality more difficult too, as happens sometimes. She was difficult towards all her children (in-law). It was Marie-Astrid -with a very Imperial husband- who received most of the blows as she took care of her mother most.

We will most likely never know the complete story, we only know 1 version, of an unstable (mentioned in an article at the time) Maria Teresa who had her curious meeting with the press. Instead of racism or snobbism, it may just have been a clash of personalities, which isn't uncommon between mothers and daughters-in-law.
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  #92  
Old 02-18-2016, 04:15 AM
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Thanks for the insightful post. Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte is indeed often confused with her mother-in-law, Grand-Duchess Charlotte.

Grand-Duchess Charlotte was the very last Nassau on the Luxembourgian throne, like her contemporary Queen Wilhelmina was the very last Orange-Nassau on the Dutch throne. Both were known as formidable and most difficult ladies, to be handled with caution and care... I can imagine the upset by Grand-Duchess Charlotte, as María Teresa was completely out of any standard she was brought up, all her long, eventful and often difficult life long. It is easy to condemn Charlotte de Nassau but when you feel responsible for the grand House and its future, I can imagine her resistance against a marriage which goes against anything she ever stood for.

At the same time we have to say: Grand-Duchess Charlotte counts as one of the most doting grandmothers ever and was rumoured to be extremely close to her grandchildren, no matter their "commoner" mother.
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  #93  
Old 02-18-2016, 04:26 AM
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T

At the same time we have to say: Grand-Duchess Charlotte counts as one of the most doting grandmothers ever and was rumoured to be extremely close to her grandchildren, no matter their "commoner" mother.
Grand Duchess Charlotte or Grand Duchess Josépohine-Charlotte?
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  #94  
Old 02-18-2016, 04:29 AM
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[QUOTE=Duc_et_Pair;1864470]Thanks for the insightful post. Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte is indeed often confused with her mother-in-law, Grand-Duchess Charlotte.

Grand-Duchess Charlotte was the very last Nassau on the Luxembourgian throne, like her contemporary Queen Wilhelmina was the very last Orange-Nassau on the Dutch throne. Both were known as formidable and most difficult ladies, to be handled with caution and care... I can imagine the upset by Grand-Duchess Charlotte, as María Teresa was completely out of any standard she was brought up, all her long, eventful and often difficult life long. It is easy to condemn Charlotte de Nassau but when you feel responsible for the grand House and its future, I can imagine her resistance against a marriage which goes against anything she ever stood for.

At the same time we have to say: Grand-Duchess Charlotte counts as one of the most doting grandmothers ever and was rumoured to be extremely close to her grandchildren, no matter their "commoner" mother.[/QUOTE]

Little confused. Charlotte was close to her grandchildren with despite their commoner mother? Do you mean her great-grandchildren? Or were you referring to Prince Charles' children. Jean's wife was certainly not a commoner. Her great-grandchildren were indeed born to a commoner mother. But then again only Gui and Felix were even alive when she died in 1985, they were 4 and 1, Louis was born a year later. Neither of Henri's brothers who married commoners had children when she died.

Or were you referring to Josephine-Charlotte being a doting grandmother? And forgot the Josephine part?
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Old 02-18-2016, 07:40 AM
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I was referring to the children of María Teresa and indeed Grand-Duchess Charlotte as great-grandmother, my mistake.

The "ice-cold" former Grand Duchess melted when Guillaume was laid in her arms, so to say. Sort of Dowager Countess of Grantham vibe here...
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Old 02-18-2016, 08:18 AM
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Like Marengo I have never heard that one at all and I don't believe it. I doubt that Baudouin, more Catholic than the Pope, would have ever consented to marry Princess Elizabeth. Not only is she Orthodox, she was and is extremely worldly and sophisticated(JFK and Richard Burton are only two of her many documented lovers). In other words the exact opposite of Baudouin.


Other than her great beauty, I can see nothing about her that would have attracted him. They both dodged a bullet!
I pulled this from her official site:

Biografija | Nj.K.V. Princeza Jelisaveta Karađorđević

As it is in Serbian I will try to translate:

"Before the marriage of King Baudoin of Belgium and Fabiola de Mora y Aragon in 1960, Princess Elizabeth was considered a strong candidate to become his wife."

Other link is an article of Aaron Gell:

Aaron Gell

"When Elizabeth’s father tried marrying her off to King Baudouin of Belgium, she ran away with Howard Oxenberg, an American businessman she’d met on the ski slopes of Austria."

What is the truth and what is not,I don't know,but just forwarded what she herself stated in her own web page and what she said in her various video interviews.
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Old 02-18-2016, 10:06 AM
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Thanks again Marc, it is much appreciated and an interesting story.

Still, I am not sure if the princess is telling the truth. Perhaps she embelishes it a little? She married Oxenberg in january 1961. Baudouin got engaged to Fabiola in september 1960 and married her in december.

But I am sure her parents would have loved the match with Baudouin, as would Leopold III, the Princess de Réthy and Queen Élisabeth. I wouldn't be surprised if they would be encouraged to meet each other etc. But a forced wedding seems a bit too melodramatic, esp. for 1960. If the Belgian court wanted to force Baudouin there would be more appropriate princesses around.
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  #98  
Old 02-18-2016, 10:27 AM
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Thanks again Marc, it is much appreciated and an interesting story.

Still, I am not sure if the princess is telling the truth. Perhaps she embelishes it a little? She married Oxenberg in january 1961. Baudouin got engaged to Fabiola in september 1960 and married her in december.
No problem and thank you for the kind words

Actually, at the time of Baudoin's engagement Princess Elizabeth was already married.

She married Howard Oxenberg on the 21st of May 1960 in US, while their daughter was born in 1961.
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Old 02-18-2016, 01:13 PM
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Ah, in that case wikipedia may be wrong, as they mention january 21st 1961 (for a civil wedding).

I suppose the link between Elizabeth and Baudouin would be the Italians, since Elizabeth's brother Alexander married Baudouin's 1st cousin Maria Pia of Italy.

Edit: Paul Theroff's online Gotha also mentions January 21st 1961. He does say that there is another date mentioned in online sources (21 May 1960). It seems that the 1961 is more credible, and he lists Marlene Koenig as his main source.
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Old 02-18-2016, 02:15 PM
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Ah, in that case wikipedia may be wrong, as they mention january 21st 1961 (for a civil wedding).

I suppose the link between Elizabeth and Baudouin would be the Italians, since Elizabeth's brother Alexander married Baudouin's 1st cousin Maria Pia of Italy.

Edit: Paul Theroff's online Gotha also mentions January 21st 1961. He does say that there is another date mentioned in online sources (21 May 1960). It seems that the 1961 is more credible, and he lists Marlene Koenig as his main source.
Thank you for this.There are really various dates online,so I guess this one could be the one. :)

The thing I know,is what she said in an interview is that she left Paris after she turned 18 for US,didn't tell the exact month or date of her departure.

Yes,that is the connection.The families were very close due to this marriage between Alexander and Maria Pia.
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