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  #21  
Old 12-14-2012, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
How is William's blood any bluer than, say, that of Princess Elizabeth of Belgium? Or Prince Joseph of Liechtenstein? Or practically every single other royal grandchild?
As
blue-blooded as them perhaps, but more so? The Queen Mother and Diana were both commoners so the blue blood in the British Royal Family is seriously watered down.

I understand that, as a citizen of one of the Realms, you are understandably attached and proud of your royal family; however, there is no need to try to bring down every single other one to prove whatever point you are trying to make. The British Royals aren't necessarily the grandest, fairest, nicest, wealthiest or just the best of them all, you know. Certainly not from the point of view of those who happen to live in other Monarchies.
I state my opinion and you don't have to like it' I'm not 'bringing down' other royal families by affirming my opinion that the British royals are a class above all the rest.
The OP asked a question and thats my answer.

PM for the discussion on the bloodlines of 'practically every other royal grandchild'
I'll take that one on any day
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  #22  
Old 12-14-2012, 08:55 PM
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This is just my opinion. Say for some odd (impossible) reason, I get engaged to a European royal. I am being very cheeky -and I hope I make at least a couple of you smile at some of this. These would be my thoughts on my British Royal Family attendee.

Am I at all upset that the Queen will not come to the wedding? Heck no - she's in her 80s and does not need the travel, nor does Philip. Almost everyone at the wedding will be a generation younger than her! She will send a great gift/donation in any case.

Am I thrilled that Sophie and Edward are coming to the wedding? Yes I am. They are great guests, have many friends among the European attendees, are sparkling conversationalists, don't complain about the menu and wine list or the hotel and will bring a good gift/donation. They always look great, but don't upstage the wedding families.

Am I despondent that Charles and Camilla are not coming in person? No I am not. He loathes weddings and I know that. Were he there, I'd feel like I had to duck his conversation because he would lecture me about not serving organic partridge - sorry, Charles, I could not find certified organic partridge, but I did find free range partridge! Then he would fuss because the hotel we arranged had too large a carbon footprint. Camilla would be great conversationally, but make everyone look at snaps of the grandchild! Plus, mums-in-law would get in a snit because the Boucheron Honeycomb put the rest of the headgear into the dust in photographs.

As for Wills not coming, we think Kate is a bit nouveau and she does have that tummy thing. Enough said.

And as Harry, well, he does tend to chase the female herd a bit. Plus, with the open bar, I'd just as soon not.

Hope you enjoyed this look from the other side of the question.
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  #23  
Old 12-14-2012, 08:56 PM
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I think it's true that the British royals are more recognized and highly regarded but at the sametime the other European royals probably are happy with that. They don't have the spotlight on them as much so they are allowed to relax alittle. They are too dedicated to their people and country but they are more able to enjoy life in public as well as in private.

I see nothing wrong with the young British royals establishing a relationship with their other royal counterparts. I never thought The Duke & Duchess of Cambridge would meet up with The Crown Prince & Princess of Denmark but they did and did something beautiful and helpful for UNICEF. Even Queen Margreth was happy to see the Cambridges working with Frederick & Mary. I think they should get together more often with them and Victoria & Daniel, Guillaume & Stephanie and do some more amazing things.
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  #24  
Old 12-15-2012, 05:13 AM
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Duke-of-Earl - I think I very much like your answers :-)

Everybody here have long since recognized that with regard to the members of the British royal family, you are way beyond what is normally considered mere obsession.
For me your views of the British versus other royal families have crossed the boundaries of general discussions and have reached the realm of entertainment.
Here's to hoping you'll keep it up :-)
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  #25  
Old 12-15-2012, 08:26 AM
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For me, a large part of this is that we British generally see ourselves as, in Sir Winston Churchill's phrase, 'in Europe, but not of Europe'. One need only look at recent opinion polls on the hostility of the majority of British citizens to the European Union and closer European integration (which, given what an unmitigated disaster the whole EU project has turned out, is entirely justified). Only 12% of Britons self-identify as 'European'. We are much more instinctively close to the other English-speaking nations.

There is little knowledge of or interest in the continental royal families in the UK. Their weddings, funerals, christenings etc. receive next to no press coverage. There's a reason that many of them come to London to do their shopping - because no-one recognises them. I have yet to come across anyone in this country, apart from on sites such as this, who is dissatisfied that our royals don't go to enough continental royal events. Actually, I think if there were pictures in the press of half a dozen of the BRF heading off to some European royal wedding, where the MO seems to be trying to outdo one another in the jewellery and order stakes, it would be a bit of a PR misstep for the BRF. Why should the British taxpayer pay to transport, accommodate and protect a load of our royals in some foreign city just so they can go to the wedding of some distant cousin of theirs whom 99% of us have never heard of?

People generally overstate the family connections between the BRF and other royals. There's no doubt that they exist, but I personally don't know any of my 5th cousins twice removed or whatever. Charles paid lip-service to the family connection on his Scandinavian tour, but that's fairly standard practice on official and state visits. People seem to want them to act as if they're close family members and spend lots of time together, but that simply is not the case. There's nothing wrong with that. The BRF have close friends and family of their own, without having to fashion some super close bond with other royals.

I'm happy for the Queen to send a representative to such events. The BRF's policy seems to satisfy the other royal families, given that they're happy to attend royal events on this side of the Channel. If it doesn't bother any of the royals, why should it bother anyone else?
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  #26  
Old 12-15-2012, 10:03 AM
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It's a question of signals.

Each and every single time there is a major event in another monarchy and the European, Arabic, Thai and Japanese families send high ranking representatives the lower ranking BRF representatives are noted and commented on and the result as that the BRF is seen as snobbish, as living in the age of the empire etcetera, etcetera.

The argument about the European monarchs happily going to say W&K's wedding: Yes, they probably were, - because most CP couples were not invited anyway. For that reason there were few lower ranking representatives, even though Sweden had to send their CP couple.

There's the argument about the world wars and the BRF distancing themselves, yes, but that was 60 years ago, isn't it time to move on?

Then there is the argument about the Commonwealth and the BRF's obligations. Fair enough, but for how long? Australia may go republic within a generation, especially as the demografic landscape slowly changes. - Even Scotland may be heading for genuine autonomy.

The taxpayer argument don't hold water either. It's bad PR work from the BRF, if the British public believe the BRF members are going to weddings just to amuse themselves. It's also about promoting Britain in a positive way.

Then there is the EU argument. Good heavens, EU is hardly popular anywhere in Europe these days! And even worse the nationalism is on the rise, now really is the time to cement the connections between the countries.

Then there is the argument that the average Briton doesn't know about other royals and don't care either. Isn't it pretty embarrassing to realise that say the average German is more well informed about who's who in Europe than the average Briton?

For me all of the above doesn't mean much, why should I care? If the high ranking BRF members for whatever reason don't want to attend such events, by all means stay away.
But, and I've said that before, I believe it's the BRF who lose. The other royal families do fine without the BRF, they mingle and form personal friendships and it's no secret that they also discuss topics of common interest in their after all exclusive club and exchange experiences and advise each other. The members of the BRF get no such healthy inputs. Inputs which Kate in particular, being a commoner who has married into a royal family, might benefit from. But certainly William as well, because they are the ones who will define the role of the BRF in the future, once QEII is gone. Not Prince Charles, whom I have absolutely nothing against, - but I see him as an interrim figure. W&K is the future and they need all the help and advise they can get.
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  #27  
Old 12-15-2012, 10:17 AM
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I don't see how going to a foreign wedding is promoting Britain in a positive way. That what foreign tours are for imo.

I don't see how Edward and Sophie are low ranking members of the royal family, they are more senior than Will and Kate right now.

People complain about the BRF not sending their Crown Prince and Princess or even the Queen herself like the other family do than ask for Will and Kate to go, which base on the complaint above are still lowly rank
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  #28  
Old 12-15-2012, 10:28 AM
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The impression I get from this thread and many like it , is the continental royals are like a little 'club' and have their monthly member's only meetings and the BRF doesn't attend and it gets their noses out of joint. EIIR is much much more articulate than I and she has said it best.
The dynamic is different in Britain and with the British.

Until I joined the TRF 3 months ago, I had no idea who Mary Donaldson is. None at at all.
She receives zero press attention in the UK or North America.

EIIR said "There is little knowledge of or interest in the continental royal families in the UK. Their weddings, funerals, christenings etc. receive next to no press coverage. There's a reason that many of them come to London to do their shopping - because no-one recognises them" and its the truth, A truth that seemingly irks a lot of the followers of foreign royal families
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  #29  
Old 12-15-2012, 10:36 AM
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People tend to be more royalist than the Queen...
The BRF is a practical, down to earth family. The Queen seems to see the Wessexes as the ideal representatives because of the relatively young age of the couple and their close links with their european counterparts. She did the same in the 50's and 60's with princess Marina, relatively a "minor" royal but the exclusive representative of the BRF for some major european events.
As pointed out the continental monarchies don't seem to bother at all. We know that some monarchs are entertained privately by senior british royals like the Prince of Wales and judjing by the last visits to Norway, Sweden, Spain and Danemark, the relations seem to be quite cordial.
There is a world behind the official screen. If we don't see some public interactions btw senior British and european royals, it doesn't mean that they don't exist in private, quite the contrary i should say...
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  #30  
Old 12-15-2012, 10:37 AM
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To Miche:

Because no matter how their correct position is, W&K are percieved as belonging to the next generation.
Charles & Camilla are percieved as belonging to the old generation.

It's also a question of curtesy between families.
If we are to illustrate this on a lower level:
A family down the street is having a wedding and they send out an invitation to me personally. I show up to the reception to show my respect and good will and to reaffirm our good relations.
The next month my son is getting married and I naturally repay by sending out a general invitation to the family to come to the reception. All the other families on the street show up in force - but this family sends a postcard. Fair enough, they may have other obligations.
The month after there is a baptism at that family, they send out an invitation to me, not my son, only me. Fair enough there can be all sorts of reasons for that, so I show up.
The month after my daughter is getting married. I send out general invitations, all the other families show up in force - but this family again only send a postcard.
Okay, I'm beginning to feel snubbed and also a bit disrespected and I'm not particular keen on having a close relationship with that family. - I think you get my meaning by now. That's how it's seen by the common people in other monarchies.
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  #31  
Old 12-15-2012, 10:42 AM
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I think people might not realize that when all these marriages were taking place years ago, Sophie was the second lady of the land after The Queen, so that's not for nothing. True, Charles is now married, but I still think Edward and Sophie are the most logical choice. They've been the representatives of HM for years and (we can only guess) are friendly with the members of the other royal houses. Why change things up now?
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  #32  
Old 12-15-2012, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
It's a question of signals.

Each and every single time there is a major event in another monarchy and the European, Arabic, Thai and Japanese families send high ranking representatives the lower ranking BRF representatives are noted and commented on and the result as that the BRF is seen as snobbish, as living in the age of the empire etcetera, etcetera.
What on earth does empire have to do with anything? We in the UK have a different set of relationships to most continental European countries. The links with the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, Ireland etc. etc. are so much deeper and more highly valued than those with other nations. The Spanish RF have a similar type of relationship with many South American nations. It's simply a result of our history.

Quote:
There's the argument about the world wars and the BRF distancing themselves, yes, but that was 60 years ago, isn't it time to move on?
Equally, one could say the so-called 'family' connections between the BRF and the other royal families are now so distant as to be of little relevance. Those close relationships with the Kaiser and the Tsar didn't exactly bring much in the way of benefits to the British people. Those who wish to denigrate the BRF in the UK refer to them as German, even to this day, and the Windsors have been working to prove their Britishness for decades.

Quote:
Then there is the argument about the Commonwealth and the BRF's obligations. Fair enough, but for how long? Australia may go republic within a generation, especially as the demografic landscape slowly changes. - Even Scotland may be heading for genuine autonomy.
There are lots of ifs, buts and maybes here. The Queen is monarch of 16 sovereign states and her children support her duties in that capacity. There would be something seriously wrong if the BRF didn't value those relationships more than any others. What might possibly happen at some vague date in the future is irrelevant.

Quote:
The taxpayer argument don't hold water either. It's bad PR work from the BRF, if the British public believe the BRF members are going to weddings just to amuse themselves. It's also about promoting Britain in a positive way.
Why does it not hold water? Why on earth should I have to pay for a whole crew of police protection officers, ladies-in-waiting, equerries, valets, and whatever else to go to Copenhagen or Stockholm for the wedding of some royals I'd never heard of until I joined this forum? What possible benefit or advantage would the British people enjoy by sending the most senior royals to every royal event in the other European monarchies? We already have friendly relations with these countries.

Do you really not see how jetting off to the continent to hobnob with other royals as part of a super-exclusive club could be negative PR for the royals?

Quote:
Then there is the argument that the average Briton doesn't know about other royals and don't care either. Isn't it pretty embarrassing to realise that say the average German is more well informed about who's who in Europe than the average Briton?
We can argue about whether it's embarrassing or not, but that doesn't mean that it's not fact. I can't see how knowing that Sweden has a constitutional monarchy would be of any particular benefit to the average man on the street.

Quote:
Then there is the EU argument. Good heavens, EU is hardly popular anywhere in Europe these days! And even worse the nationalism is on the rise, now really is the time to cement the connections between the countries.
But the British people have shown in poll after poll over many years (not only during the current crisis) that they want looser ties with Europe, they certainly don't want to 'cement' further connections. Rightly or wrongly, the British are and have always been a Eurosceptic people.

Quote:
For me all of the above doesn't mean much, why should I care? If the high ranking BRF members for whatever reason don't want to attend such events, by all means stay away.
But, and I've said that before, I believe it's the BRF who lose. The other royal families do fine without the BRF, they mingle and form personal friendships and it's no secret that they also discuss topics of common interest in their after all exclusive club and exchange experiences and advise each other. The members of the BRF get no such healthy inputs. Inputs which Kate in particular, being a commoner who has married into a royal family, might benefit from. But certainly William as well, because they are the ones who will define the role of the BRF in the future, once QEII is gone. Not Prince Charles, whom I have absolutely nothing against, - but I see him as an interrim figure. W&K is the future and they need all the help and advise they can get.
All this may have been true in the days when royals had actual executive power and relationships between royal houses were all important as regards war and peace. The reality is that these people have no ability to shape or control foreign policy and so the relationships are of limited importance to anyone.

As much as Kate is like other commoner women marrying into royal families, there are also enormous differences. Unfortunately for the BRF, the press scrutiny in the UK is way beyond anything any other royal family is subjected to. As we've seen with the pregnancy announcement, William and Kate face a lifetime of media coverage (deserved or otherwise) on a scale that's pretty much unique among RFs in the world. They are going to have to learn to live with the fact that they'll be recognised just about anywhere on the planet, which is not a problem for most other royals. Kate has the best adviser and support in taking on her royal role - her husband, who had a front row seat during his parents' difficulties. I seriously doubt that there's much Mary, Maxima or Mathilde can offer Kate that's better than that.
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  #33  
Old 12-15-2012, 01:54 PM
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I don't see the big problem in this, Edward and Sophie are much closer in age to most of the couples whose weddings they've attended, it seems much more logical to me for Her Majesty to send them rather than Charles. I suspect, like other previous posters, that William, Catherine and Harry are going to take over once Charles is King.
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  #34  
Old 12-15-2012, 02:15 PM
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I'm in the process of having EIIR's last comment lamenated so I can carry it around in my wallet hahahha
Seriously folks, does it get any better than this ?
Excellent comment and I agree completely!
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  #35  
Old 12-15-2012, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by miche View Post
I don't see how going to a foreign wedding is promoting Britain in a positive way. That what foreign tours are for imo.

I don't see how Edward and Sophie are low ranking members of the royal family, they are more senior than Will and Kate right now.

People complain about the BRF not sending their Crown Prince and Princess or even the Queen herself like the other family do than ask for Will and Kate to go, which base on the complaint above are still lowly rank
I agree with your points here. Edward and Sophie aren't glamorous or high profile, but they're not junior members of the royal family and they seem to be genuinely well liked and appreciated by members of other royal families.

Also, while I'm sure William and Kate would be made feel very welcome if they did start going to these weddings, christenings, etc, I can't help but feel that members of the other European royal families understand quite well that there would be drawbacks to hosting this couple while the attention surrounding them is so intense.
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  #36  
Old 12-15-2012, 05:42 PM
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Can anyone explain to me why at foreign Royal Wedding's the British Royal family tend to send less senior Royal's to represent the family, but also the nation. To me it shows a bit of lack of respect to other coutries when those countries send their senior members to UK Royal weddings.

All other Royal houses are always represented by the head of the houses, or at least the Crown Prince/Princess.

I have no issue with the Wessex's, however as much as i respect the Queen & Duke Of Edinburgh, i've never understood why unlike Queen Beatrix or Queen Margrethe they have never attended these events. I respect that they are older now, and therefore may not be able to. But why on earth Charles and Camilla, or William and Catherine cannot go still puzzles me. Especially William and Catherine; they are young and vibrant, and i believe need to become better acquainted with their Royal counterparts.

Does anyone else agree?
Now I could be wrong, but I can't recall ever or rarely seeing King Juan Carlos at any weddings.
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  #37  
Old 12-15-2012, 05:48 PM
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What on earth does empire have to do with anything? We in the UK have a different set of relationships to most continental European countries. The links with the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, Ireland etc. etc. are so much deeper and more highly valued than those with other nations. The Spanish RF have a similar type of relationship with many South American nations. It's simply a result of our history.
I was merely quoting what is said at the coffee tables in other monarchies.
This isn't about logic this is about feelings.
I have the priviledge to know about the reasons you have presented as to why the BRF do as they do, because I read about them here on TRF and I can, admittedly with a little difficulty, understand them. The gossip magazines and the TV commentators don't say a word about this.
So when an event takes place in monarchy X, people hear the commentators say: "There is the King of Spain, followed by the Queen of the Netherlands and there is Prince Edward of the UK the third son of QEII, followed by the king of Sweden...".
And because people are proud of their monarchy, their country and their royal family, they feel snubbed on behalf of their royal family. Even though their royal family may not have any problems at all with Edward coming.
That's why this comes up again and again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EIIR View Post
Equally, one could say the so-called 'family' connections between the BRF and the other royal families are now so distant as to be of little relevance. Those close relationships with the Kaiser and the Tsar didn't exactly bring much in the way of benefits to the British people. Those who wish to denigrate the BRF in the UK refer to them as German, even to this day, and the Windsors have been working to prove their Britishness for decades.
If anyone to this day is in doubt that the Windsors are British, they are hopeless cases and shouldn't be allowed outside without a guidedog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EIIR View Post
There are lots of ifs, buts and maybes here. The Queen is monarch of 16 sovereign states and her children support her duties in that capacity. There would be something seriously wrong if the BRF didn't value those relationships more than any others. What might possibly happen at some vague date in the future is irrelevant.
Fair enough, but it was worth a try...

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Originally Posted by EIIR View Post
Why does it not hold water? Why on earth should I have to pay for a whole crew of police protection officers, ladies-in-waiting, equerries, valets, and whatever else to go to Copenhagen or Stockholm for the wedding of some royals I'd never heard of until I joined this forum? What possible benefit or advantage would the British people enjoy by sending the most senior royals to every royal event in the other European monarchies? We already have friendly relations with these countries.

Do you really not see how jetting off to the continent to hobnob with other royals as part of a super-exclusive club could be negative PR for the royals?
Honestly? No, I don't. Perhaps because I'm used to see the other royal families having gettogethers at regular intervals.
Those who complain about the cost will, no matter what.

As for security and housing, that's up to the host country. The BRF needs protection and service no matter what anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EIIR View Post
We can argue about whether it's embarrassing or not, but that doesn't mean that it's not fact. I can't see how knowing that Sweden has a constitutional monarchy would be of any particular benefit to the average man on the street.
Well, it would be embarrassing for you. If you go on a holiday to say Portugal and you chat with some French, german and Swedish tourists and you show that you don't know the most basic things about other European countries you will not be considered the sharpest knife in the drawer.
And if you have the audacity to add you don't care, well, enjoy your drink - alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EIIR View Post
But the British people have shown in poll after poll over many years (not only during the current crisis) that they want looser ties with Europe, they certainly don't want to 'cement' further connections. Rightly or wrongly, the British are and have always been a Eurosceptic people.
To that I can retort: No man is an island and that goes for countries too in this globalized world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EIIR View Post
All this may have been true in the days when royals had actual executive power and relationships between royal houses were all important as regards war and peace. The reality is that these people have no ability to shape or control foreign policy and so the relationships are of limited importance to anyone.

As much as Kate is like other commoner women marrying into royal families, there are also enormous differences. Unfortunately for the BRF, the press scrutiny in the UK is way beyond anything any other royal family is subjected to. As we've seen with the pregnancy announcement, William and Kate face a lifetime of media coverage (deserved or otherwise) on a scale that's pretty much unique among RFs in the world. They are going to have to learn to live with the fact that they'll be recognised just about anywhere on the planet, which is not a problem for most other royals. Kate has the best adviser and support in taking on her royal role - her husband, who had a front row seat during his parents' difficulties. I seriously doubt that there's much Mary, Maxima or Mathilde can offer Kate that's better than that.
I disagree with you. Royals may not have much political influence, but as living role models they certainly have a lot of influence. Why else follow the royals and discuss and imitate what they say and do?

You are basically saying that other royals cannot teach W&K anything. I believe you are very much wrong. You can always learn something new.
Before I began to do what I do now, I instructed new people for a number of years. And even though I was damned good at my job, I learned something in return from every single one I trained. Even the most thick headed.
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  #38  
Old 12-15-2012, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
So when an event takes place in monarchy X, people hear the commentators say: "There is the King of Spain, followed by the Queen of the Netherlands and there is Prince Edward of the UK the third son of QEII, followed by the king of Sweden...".
.
Presumably they were all sitting around discussing a funeral because Juan Carlos does not do weddings but seems to prefer funerals.
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:53 PM
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Presumably they were all sitting around discussing a funeral because Juan Carlos does not do weddings but seems to prefer funerals.
Yes, that is what I thought also!!!! I never see him at weddings
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:55 PM
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I think all the royals are as royal as each other.

I think that there are 2 reasons about the BRF attending royal events abroad. 1stly the Queen doesn't (generally) go to weddings, funerals, christenings other than those of her direct family. Good example was the wedding of Richard of Gloucester - didn't go. Go to one, go to them all and I just dont think on the scale of the family, that is possible - and her official duties, rather than family events, always takes priority.

Other reasons
The Queen limits her travelling abroad and I think that has been the case for about 20 years. And I think Charles for quite a while was on his own officially - the BRF only take spouses on royal events. And once he did get married - there is an age gap with the other CP couples. But Edward and Sophie are a tad younger and hve more in common (ie young children) and he is the Queen's son - so suitable I think. I don't think any slight was ever intended and I'm pretty sure that none was taken.
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