Divorce rumours for Princess Masako ?

[Elspeth]

I'd be more inclined to believe the idea that Masako was just being a selfish wimp if she was the only newcomer to the imperial family to have suffered in this way, but with the precedent of Empress Michiko's problems, which seem to have continued until recently if not still occurring, it seems as though the system puts a lot of stress on the wife of the heir to the throne.

As for the notion that Masako shouldn't have accepted Naruhito's proposal, we don't know how much pressure she was under. As Charlotte says, reports of her during her studies in the West say that she was a fairly stereotypical Japanese girl, and there's a lot of cultural pressure in Japan for young people (particularly women) to be respectful of their parents and to do things for reasons other than their own personal wishes. All the reports are that she was reluctant to accept Naruhito's proposal, but he was very insistent and (not sure how true this is) he'd said he wouldn't marry at all if he couldn't marry her. Sounds as though she was under pressure from her own family too, or at least would have been aware that her acceptance of the proposal might do good things for her father's career, and there's also a possiblity that her own career might have been affected - and I can see how the different pressures might have added up to the point where she felt that she couldn't refuse. It seemed fairly clear at the time that she had serious misgivings, and her problems in producing the requisite son would have added to the stresses since her marriage.

I still can't understand how the Pooh Bahs thought she'd be more likely to become pregnant if she was made to stay home while her husband was travelling out of the country, but maybe biology works differently over there. After all, they do claim that there's a Y-chromosome-based descent from a goddess, so who knows...

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Vanesa

Did I say she must divorce? Maybe she was mistaken marrying the Crownprince, but facts are facts and here they are. She already married him. So she MUST try to get along with her task too. And I never liked divorce, so, I can't understand how my English could be so bad you understood I was proposing the Princess to divorce.

And if we must speak about her illness, don't forget that nervous illness are EMOTIONAL, so we can do something about them with a little of our own will. Psychologic experts can help you a little, but if you don't try to overcome youe emotional problems they will never be solved.

A physical disease is different. cancer could kill you and no psychologic expert could even help you. They could do the better to help you to accept the illness and help yo to acceot it and try to fight it. It's the same for a miscarriage. Your body is the only responsible for physical illness, even if they have a psychologic origine. Stress is psychosomatic and all emotional illness depends somewhat in your attitude facing life.

I DO thing, yes, that if Princess Masako tried to be "a nice girl" things will be better. I tried it myself in life, and believe me, I'm happier now than when I believed that everybody (except me) where responsible of my sadness and problems. I began to be nicer than I was to people and surprisingly to me IT WORKED! All that psychologic expert couldn't do for me, my own attitude toward life DID. I'm very happy and even feel better physically. I repeat: it works. All of us have a lot of psychological pressions from our friends, family, work-mates, etc. All of us could choice between trying to be nice and help others or have a nervous breakdown. I choice the first option. Being cheerful to others, brings happiness to your own life.

Vanesa.

I have to agree with you. Our happiness beggin inside ourselves. If we try to stop blaming others as the cause of our bad thoughts, bad humor or bad behaviour, we would be so much happier! When we decide to be nice and smile no matter the circumnstances, you will feel good. This is my opinion about us, anonymous people. In what concerns to a royal, I don't believe things are so easy like that. They are under pressure 24 hours a day.
Masako can do all her best but if others are always bullying her and avoiding her from special events, what can she do against it? I would feel sad, frustrated and depressed if someone was always refusing me to work as I should and could.
If a child is bullied at school or if someone hates his co-workers for some reason, they can always complain to the Principal or the Boss. And if things don't get better, well they can search for another school/job where they can feel better. This doesn't happen with Masako. To whom will she complain? Even if she gets divorced, she wouldn't have a normal life like we all have, she would always be the one who didnt fit in. Worst, she would lost her husband who seems to love her.
I think she is a strong woman (other in her place would have reacted to all this with a divorce and polemic interviews to magazines or tv shows). I would like to see Masako happy and working, but I don't know if it will be possible. Pity is a sad feeling, but I can't avoid to feel it for Masako. I wouldnt like to be in her situation.

[Vanesa]

Your insights were wonderfully said, Regina, and I value them highly, since they are written without ressentful feelings. They are genuine and written by a warm person. I can feel it. But I can understand easily why...Your avatar tell much more about you than the words you wrote down.

Of course, Princess Masako is in a situation very different than mine or yours. She has an official possition. She could not do everything she wants to, and as all person in her possition she must have a party against her. Is NOT easy to deal with these. I know. I was not saying that she has not to face any opposition. But the fact is all persons that are in power or near to the power must face these kind of difficulties. And if you are a Crownprincess, or a president, or even a deputy, you must be aware of it. Or you are destroyed in no time. It's sounds sad and cruel. Well, it IS sad and cruel. But no way. It's reality. And fighting against reality is not good nor for your health, nor for your nerves.

I didn't said that Masako could distroy the REAL problems she REALLY has by a positive attitude. I was only saying that this could help a lot. And she could even have people that before didn't like her, suddenly taking her party.Positive vibe could do mracles in a certain way. Warm, happy and serene people have the sympathy of everyone...and then ,yes, having a great quantity of persons behind yourself, loving you, and supporting you, you can fight toward your ennemies .

It could again, sound cruel and sad, but peoples doesn't like the persons who are all time with their nerves broken, and showing sad, forced smiles. CRownprincess Masako could have a great supporting and defeat whoever tryes to attack her if her attitude changes. If not, people could think the IHA is right about her.

And no, Mandy. I'm not a psychiatrist. You could try to be nice toward me, since I'm nice toward you and the others. Even if I do not share your vision of life, I 'm not rude to you, for I have no reason to be. I'm not a psychiatrist, but in some time of my life I went to one , since I was ina very similar condition of the Cronprincess. I was broken and believed all people (BUT ME, of course! ) were to blame for my personal state. And it was her, this psychiatrit that said me the same than I write above: that all the problems I had could be true, that all the people who attacked me could be bad, but than the last word was mine, and that even if I was chocked to hear it, the one to blame was ME and not all the other persons. I culd made them change with my attitude. I follow her advice, and it worked, Not at first. But after a while, people was very surprised to see me always happy and cheerful, and they began to be nice toward me. Not all of them, of course and NOT all my problems went away. But now, I don't really care.

And please, don't be rude to me, for I'm simply trying to discover how could the Crownprincess be happy. I'm sad myself when other persons are sad, for I know how it is to be sad and thinking that some people is against you.

Vanesa.

[Mandy]

I'm sorry Vanessa for the ordeal you went through in life, and even without knowing the circumstances, I guarantee that you can't compare your situation to that of Masako's. Your were able to deal privately with your issues, and we would have been none the wiser if you had not informed us about them. However, Masako is being bullied on a very public stage and by an entity, the IHA, of which she has absolutely no control. They decide whether or not Masako is "well enough" to perform her royal duties which she does willingly and with a smile.

Even with my medical experience, I would never dare to pass judgement on someone who is ill except to say that no two persons ever react exactly alike when they are in the same situation especially when they are world's apart.

[Lamyah]

perhaps things will be different ones Naruhito is crowned?

[ChiaraC]

Originally Posted by Vanesa

Did I say she must divorce? Maybe she was mistaken marrying the Crownprince, but facts are facts and here they are. She already married him. So she MUST try to get along with her task too. And I never liked divorce, so, I can't understand how my English could be so bad you understood I was proposing the Princess to divorce.

And if we must speak about her illness, don't forget that nervous illness are EMOTIONAL, so we can do something about them with a little of our own will. Psychologic experts can help you a little, but if you don't try to overcome youe emotional problems they will never be solved.

A physical disease is different. cancer could kill you and no psychologic expert could even help you. They could do the better to help you to accept the illness and help yo to acceot it and try to fight it. It's the same for a miscarriage. Your body is the only responsible for physical illness, even if they have a psychologic origine. Stress is psychosomatic and all emotional illness depends somewhat in your attitude facing life.

I DO thing, yes, that if Princess Masako tried to be "a nice girl" things will be better. I tried it myself in life, and believe me, I'm happier now than when I believed that everybody (except me) where responsible of my sadness and problems. I began to be nicer than I was to people and surprisingly to me IT WORKED! All that psychologic expert couldn't do for me, my own attitude toward life DID. I'm very happy and even feel better physically. I repeat: it works. All of us have a lot of psychological pressions from our friends, family, work-mates, etc. All of us could choice between trying to be nice and help others or have a nervous breakdown. I choice the first option. Being cheerful to others, brings happiness to your own life.

Vanesa.

I am a bit puzzled. You are Vanesa. The words I quoted were from HRH Abigail?

I would certainly not be the right person to criticize anybody`s English anyway as I am not a native speaker myself. But as far as I can see, yours is excellent. I don´t think that is the point.

Abigail said Masako has two possibilities in her opinion: „Either, she is getting truly better and will be contributory, or ... she must get out altogether.“
The first is clear: be a good girl, not be ill any longer and do her duty. But if she finds herself to be too „sensitive“ as you said in your post and accordingly unable to choose this option what would be the second one? How can she „get out altogether“ if not by a divorce?

I don´t share your opinion concerning emotional/psychological illnesses. (Nor does the mainstream medical world as far as I am informed.) And undoubtedly there is not such a clear line between illness on the psychical and on the bodily level. Emotional illness can be partly caused by the body (genetical predispositions, for example). And on the other hand psychical aspects influence the state of the body and can even co-cause severe illnesses of the body (stress, continually suppressed anger, extreme grief...). (There seems to be even evidence that among people with cancer there is a significant number who have problems of dealing with emotions of anger, more than the average population.)

And certainly pregnancy and birthgiving are extremely vulnerable to strong emotional impressions and stress. Why was it such a „biggie“ for Kiko to have her son? O.k., she was 39, not 25. But nowadays it is not unusual for a 39-year-old-woman to have her third child. (Geena Davis had her first at 46, and the next two two years later...) Kiko has given birth to two daughters without any problems I ever heard of. And from a physical point of view it is no more difficult or dangerous to give birth to a boy than to a girl. But from a psychological point of view? Oh well...

Of course, she knew the whole country was watching her. In the beginning it probably was fun and pride – for her, it was rather optional to give birth to a male heir, not a duty like for her sister-in-law. But when the months passed fear began to grow: now all hopes of the country and the imperial family were on her and what if anything happened to this baby? They had blamed her sister-in-law for „not trying hard enough“ to get pregnant. (Which is obviously absurd. You can try harder to win a football game but not to get pregnant.) If anything went wrong wouldn´t they blame her in the same absurd way of not having been „cautious enough“ or of not having „fully realized her duty in this important situation“?

I am absolutely convinced that Kiko`s problems in her third pregnancy were co-caused by the stress and strong emotional pressure she was under. In the end she made it, in spite of that. But this same pressure under which Kiko tumbled after a few months had been on Masako for over ten years... (I am not saying that this was the reason why she didn´t get pregnant. But I can well imagine that as, in fact, she did not get pregnant she in the end fell prey to this immensely stressful situation.)

I don´t think that anybody in this forum (myself included, of course) has an experience that comes even remotely close to this situation. We are all human beings, and so we can sometimes say „been there, done that, I know how you feel“, and in a way this also gives us a right to judge because we have an idea how much we are asking of a person.

But there are situations that are too special, like this one. We can only guess what it means to be in Masako´s position and what we are asking if we say she should try more. And we really can´t be sure if we ourselves in her situation would be able to do it. I am convinced that even Kiko - who was close enough to be well informed - thought it would be much easier before she had to do it herself.

And I am not sure if we do anything good by blaming Masako. As Elsbeth said her burden has been (is) on Michiko, it is/was as I explained in a way on Kiko, it will be on Hisahito. AND do you have any idea how much it will be on Hisahito´s wife? No mother still in her right mind will let her daughter marry this poor guy...

You say you want to forward Masako´s happiness. And I am sure that is what we all would want. But I think it is not effective to keep saying that Masako is "THE PROBLEM". If they would just stop blaming Masako she could do a big favour to her country and to the imperial family: to help them recognize that it is necessary to change this f...ing law of male succession that threatens to make one generation after the other miserable. (I don´t care for the theoretical background. I only see that they are sacrificing living human beings to this theory and I don´t think that any theory can be worth that.)

Masako´s illness could be a gift for the whole country if they would only accept it. Perhaps it is they who should try harder...

[HRH Abigail]

Originally Posted by ChiaraC

I am a bit puzzled. You are Vanesa. The words I quoted were from HRH Abigail?

I would certainly not be the right person to criticize anybody`s English anyway as I am not a native speaker myself. But as far as I can see, yours is excellent. I don´t think that is the point.

Abigail said Masako has two possibilities in her opinion: „Either, she is getting truly better and will be contributory, or ... she must get out altogether.“
The first is clear: be a good girl, not be ill any longer and do her duty. But if she finds herself to be too „sensitive“ as you said in your post and accordingly unable to choose this option what would be the second one? How can she „get out altogether“ if not by a divorce?

I don´t share your opinion concerning emotional/psychological illnesses. (Nor does the mainstream medical world as far as I am informed.) And undoubtedly there is not such a clear line between illness on the psychical and on the bodily level. Emotional illness can be partly caused by the body (genetical predispositions, for example). And on the other hand psychical aspects influence the state of the body and can even co-cause severe illnesses of the body (stress, continually suppressed anger, extreme grief...). (There seems to be even evidence that among people with cancer there is a significant number who have problems of dealing with emotions of anger, more than the average population.)

And certainly pregnancy and birthgiving are extremely vulnerable to strong emotional impressions and stress. Why was it such a „biggie“ for Kiko to have her son? O.k., she was 39, not 25. But nowadays it is not unusual for a 39-year-old-woman to have her third child. (Geena Davis had her first at 46, and the next two two years later...) Kiko has given birth to two daughters without any problems I ever heard of. And from a physical point of view it is no more difficult or dangerous to give birth to a boy than to a girl. But from a psychological point of view? Oh well...

Of course, she knew the whole country was watching her. In the beginning it probably was fun and pride – for her, it was rather optional to give birth to a male heir, not a duty like for her sister-in-law. But when the months passed fear began to grow: now all hopes of the country and the imperial family were on her and what if anything happened to this baby? They had blamed her sister-in-law for „not trying hard enough“ to get pregnant. (Which is obviously absurd. You can try harder to win a football game but not to get pregnant.) If anything went wrong wouldn´t they blame her in the same absurd way of not having been „cautious enough“ or of not having „fully realized her duty in this important situation“?

I am absolutely convinced that Kiko`s problems in her third pregnancy were co-caused by the stress and strong emotional pressure she was under. In the end she made it, in spite of that. But this same pressure under which Kiko tumbled after a few months had been on Masako for over ten years... (I am not saying that this was the reason why she didn´t get pregnant. But I can well imagine that as, in fact, she did not get pregnant she in the end fell prey to this immensely stressful situation.)

I don´t think that anybody in this forum (myself included, of course) has an experience that comes even remotely close to this situation. We are all human beings, and so we can sometimes say „been there, done that, I know how you feel“, and in a way this also gives us a right to judge because we have an idea how much we are asking of a person.

But there are situations that are too special, like this one. We can only guess what it means to be in Masako´s position and what we are asking if we say she should try more. And we really can´t be sure if we ourselves in her situation would be able to do it. I am convinced that even Kiko - who was close enough to be well informed - thought it would be much easier before she had to do it herself.

And I am not sure if we do anything good by blaming Masako. As Elsbeth said her burden has been (is) on Michiko, it is/was as I explained in a way on Kiko, it will be on Hisahito. AND do you have any idea how much it will be on Hisahito´s wife? No mother still in her right mind will let her daughter marry this poor guy...

You say you want to forward Masako´s happiness. And I am sure that is what we all would want. But I think it is not effective to keep saying that Masako is "THE PROBLEM". If they would just stop blaming Masako she could do a big favour to her country and to the imperial family: to help them recognize that it is necessary to change this f...ing law of male succession that threatens to make one generation after the other miserable. (I don´t care for the theoretical background. I only see that they are sacrificing living human beings to this theory and I don´t think that any theory can be worth that.)

Masako´s illness could be a gift for the whole country if they would only accept it. Perhaps it is they who should try harder...

Hello, there ...

It's "HRH Abigail" here ... but, you can call me Abbie, if you care to, please.

I appreciate your disagreement with my stance and opinions.

You have the right to think what you will.

You have every right to express your opinion.

However, I think that Masako retreating from what she KNEW she was getting into, has gone on quite long enough, to be most honest with you.

My point was: Either this young Lady should get the treatment she so desperately appears to need, buck up and get on with it, or ... get out altogether.

Here in America we have an old saying: "If you can't stand the heat / Get out of the kitchen."

Meaning, if you cannot stand the job, and cannot perform it up to the expectations that are ... well, expected, then one should simply BOW OUT, and get another job. Yes, it's just that simple.

The Japanese People and Royal Household have given this lovely young Woman YEARS to adjust and recover!
I feel as though they have been most accomodating to her and her "condition". But, NOW the oneness is upon Masako to ENTER the Royal Mainstream and CONTRIBUTE. She's been ill since 2002, for Heaven's sakes. She's been allowed the luxury of being in seclusion and away from all her public duties for this long length of time.

Sooo, let's now see her get on with it --
Either get treatment, and MAKE it work, or ... get out.
The Royals don't have to put up with Ditherers, in my opinion.

Masako is not some uneducated Dolt.
She's BRILLIANT!
She KNEW darn well what was ahead of her, and expected of her, when she married into the worlds most conservative Royal Family and System. She knew.

Yes, at first I was most sympathetic towards her plight. I wanted her to retreat and concentrate on getting better.
But now, I want to see her making more of an effort about getting back in to The Swing of Things, and doing her JOB!

In America we have another saying: "Fish or cut bait!"
Meaning, either fish or just give it up!
Do it, or, give up!

I agree with The Empress Michiko, about Masako's plight and her obligation.
Michiko, herself was NEVER allowed the luxury of many years of retreat.

She put on a "brave face" and soldiered on, as one must do when one marries into this sort of situation, sorry.

Every "foreign" person who has married into Royal Situations has done this.

I just finished reading the EXCELLENT Biography, written by (the now ex) Queen Noor al Hussein of Jordan called "Leap of Faith" and it IT, The Queen goes into great detail about HER adjustment travails, and how she just went forth and COPED! She didn't cower from duty. She didn't retreat. She didn't sulk, mope, complain.
She sallied forth and GOT ON WITH IT!

Masako is also most well-educated.
She knows what's expected of her.
Either do the job, or bow out, if you truly don't feel you can perform.

GIVE someone else a chance to do the job in an exemplary fashion, if you feel as though you cannot.

This is really all I am saying, sorry.

[ChiaraC]

Dear Abbie, generally, I share your opinion: Love it, change it or leave it.

But I also know from my own experience that it can take a lot of time sometimes to "love things into change". I think Masako nonwithstanding her difficult position and her obvious difficulties in dealing with it has at least two excellent reasons for investing that time: her husband and daughter.

Naruhito is lucky that he is a male. If he were not he certainly would be criticized at least as much as his wife. He does not "fit in" any more than she. Is not that "big" for the heir of a throne to say: "If I can´t have this woman I won´t marry at all."? Or to unconditionally and publicly support his wife who has failed in fulfilling her first duty (to get a boy)? Maybe he even prevented Masako from leaving by saying: "Even if you leave I won´t marry again and then you will have sacrificed yourself for nothing." Considering what we know about him I think that absolutely possible.

From the "imperial" point of view he is neglecting the duties of his position in an irresponsible way.

But on the other hand: is not this way of unconditionally loving and supporting this one person he has chosen, no matter what happens and no matter how little she "fits in", is that not exactly what we are all dreaming of - not only in marriage but in all human relationships? To be appreciated for who we are, not for our "showing off" qualities?

I think such an relationship is very well worth fighting for. And as far as we can see it is this what Masako is doing.

And I think she has every right to it, no matter how long it takes and how much the japanese people or the imperial family are afraid of "losing their face" because of her.

I have already explained why I think that Masako is not "the problem", she is only a symptom of "the problem". If she gets out, maybe (maybe) HER life will be better but the main problem will remain unsolved.

Masako is so disturbing to people because her condition makes it so obvious that it is nearly as difficult to survive in her position as in the "dead zone" on the Mount Everest. Michiko suffered silently. That was, of course, more comfortable (for everybody except herself).

If Masako did leave and Naruhito then did remarry (which I doubt) the next one would have the same problems. Probably, she would not express them in the same way as Masako, maybe she indeed would get breast cancer. So people could pity her and go on with being in denial. But I don´t see that there is any use in that.

And I am absolutely sure that everybody in this position would have the same problems in one form or other. I practice Aikido, and so I look at people intuitively from a "fighting point" of view. And Masako (as well as Michiko, bye the bye, although now there is only a faint shadow left of her former self) is champion´s level concerning will and inner strength, in my perception. Concerning that, she is one in a million. If she cannot do it, nobody can.

Well, I suppose, so we agree to disagree...

One thing just to make things clear: when you say Masako should "get out" (if she chooses that option) you do mean by a divorce? Or is there another possibility I have overlooked?

[HRH Abigail]

Originally Posted by ChiaraC

Dear Abbie, generally, I share your opinion: Love it, change it or leave it.

But I also know from my own experience that it can take a lot of time sometimes to "love things into change". I think Masako nonwithstanding her difficult position and her obvious difficulties in dealing with it has at least two excellent reasons for investing that time: her husband and daughter.

Naruhito is lucky that he is a male. If he were not he certainly would be criticized at least as much as his wife. He does not "fit in" any more than she. Is not that "big" for the heir of a throne to say: "If I can´t have this woman I won´t marry at all."? Or to unconditionally and publicly support his wife who has failed in fulfilling her first duty (to get a boy)? Maybe he even prevented Masako from leaving by saying: "Even if you leave I won´t marry again and then you will have sacrificed yourself for nothing." Considering what we know about him I think that absolutely possible.

From the "imperial" point of view he is neglecting the duties of his position in an irresponsible way.

But on the other hand: is not this way of unconditionally loving and supporting this one person he has chosen, no matter what happens and no matter how little she "fits in", is that not exactly what we are all dreaming of - not only in marriage but in all human relationships? To be appreciated for who we are, not for our "showing off" qualities?

I think such an relationship is very well worth fighting for. And as far as we can see it is this what Masako is doing.

And I think she has every right to it, no matter how long it takes and how much the japanese people or the imperial family are afraid of "losing their face" because of her.

I have already explained why I think that Masako is not "the problem", she is only a symptom of "the problem". If she gets out, maybe (maybe) HER life will be better but the main problem will remain unsolved.

Masako is so disturbing to people because her condition makes it so obvious that it is nearly as difficult to survive in her position as in the "dead zone" on the Mount Everest. Michiko suffered silently. That was, of course, more comfortable (for everybody except herself).

If Masako did leave and Naruhito then did remarry (which I doubt) the next one would have the same problems. Probably, she would not express them in the same way as Masako, maybe she indeed would get breast cancer. So people could pity her and go on with being in denial. But I don´t see that there is any use in that.

And I am absolutely sure that everybody in this position would have the same problems in one form or other. I practice Aikido, and so I look at people intuitively from a "fighting point" of view. And Masako (as well as Michiko, bye the bye, although now there is only a faint shadow left of her former self) is champion´s level concerning will and inner strength, in my perception. Concerning that, she is one in a million. If she cannot do it, nobody can.

Well, I suppose, so we agree to disagree...

One thing just to make things clear: when you say Masako should "get out" (if she chooses that option) you do mean by a divorce? Or is there another possibility I have overlooked?

ChiaraC, may I commend you on your EXCELLENT command of English? It is superlative and there are Americans who don't speak it nearly as well as you write it. I am floored, impressed beyond measure --
Oh, because your location is listed as being Berlin, I am assuming that you are German and not a native American. Correct?

Also, I rather LIKE the polite tone of your message and how you can disagree with someone yet do so civilly.
It's OK to disagree with anyone, here.
Just do so with some semblance of courtesy, that's all.

OK, about the lovely and troubled Masako ...

Well, you KNOW we don't entirely disagree.

See, my problem with her dithering is that she has had YEARS to get treatment and the help out there that is available to her, IF she really wanted to partake of it. For example, I am sure the IHA would consent to sending her away for treatment somewhere else, were she (as The Crown Princess) to request that they do so, you know? After all, it is in their best interest to get her well and doing the duty to which she consented when she elected (finally!) to marry Naruhito.

You CAN'T (as Diana learnt to her peril) CHANGE Royalty, especially if you are Commoner who's married into it. Diana was NO Commoner but she was too "modern" for the antiquated Royal status quo.
One has NO CHOICE but to adapt to IT and its archaic rules, peccadillos, and practices. The Royal System will NOT adapt to you, and your demands.
This is especially true of the Imperial Family of Japan, the worlds most conservative Royal System.
Masako KNEW EXACTLY what she was getting into when she married, ChiaraC. That's why she took her sweet time in accepting Naruhito's proposal. He told her the truth: That he'd all that was within his power to do, to help and guide her thru' the Labyrinth of Royal Practices and Protocol.
Trouble is, HE could NOT defy the System into which he was born. He had to give into it, when he realised that he had only a certain amount of "power" to change it.
Remember, shortly after he and Masako were married that Naruhito came out and CRITICISED his own family for not giving enough responsibilities to his wife and for not allowing her to use HER skills to enhance the Imperial System?
Well, what fall-out came from that? Naruhito's brother, Akishino attacked him and gave him public hell, whilst his own parents did likewise. So, he wasn't at liberty to attack The System any further.

The ball is now firmly in Masako's Court, rightly or wrongly, fairly or not, ChiaraC. She must take the steps needed to sort herself out, and get better, in order to be a fully functioning member to the family into which she consented (AFTER YEARS of deliberation and thought -- soul-searching, if you will) to enter.

Frankly? I think The Imperial Family has BEEN most tolerant of Masako. It has given her almost 6 years of breathing room! She has been in almost total seclusion for a long while, now, only occasionally making public appearances for photo-ops and other MANDATOURY appearances.

I think Masako must decide: Can she cut it? She knows if she can, ChiaraC. If she isn't comfortable with her Status and the Status Quo, then she should suggest a Divorce ... for the good of her own health, and .. for the good of The Imperial Family.

Oh, and by the way: "Face-saving" is SERIOUS business to Asians. It frequently is NOT wholly-understood by Westerners, but ... it is highly INadvisable to put people in the position where they even MIGHT be embarrassed lest they "Lose Face" because ... to Asians, this is a very serious offence.
WE just toss of being embarrassed but to anyone Asian, this is the most humiliating thing one can do to them, and in Japan it is completely frowned upon, especially the higher up the Social Pecking order that you go.

People go to GREAT lengths to be verry polite and AGREEABLE to their fellow-men and women, over in Asia, lest their Compatriouts Face be lost and they suffer unduly.

It's a huge deal.
I think that to avoid losing face herself, that Masako must think about how what she does, or doesn't do, reflects upon her adopted family, who have RISKED taking her on! You know, they weren't too terribly keen on Naruhito even marrying Masako, UNTIL his parents met HERS and got many assurances that she knew exactly how to best SERVE her country ... And, that's just what Royals do.
They SERVE!

I love reading your posts. I am AMAZED and shocked at how very well you write English, when many Americans don't even bother to learn another's language all that well.

Thanks and take care,

-- Abbie

[Al_bina]

Originally Posted by HRH Abigail

You CAN'T (as Diana learnt to her peril) CHANGE Royalty, especially if you are Commoner who's married into it. Diana was NO Commoner but she was too "modern" for the antiquated Royal status quo.
One has NO CHOICE but to adapt to IT and its archaic rules, peccadillos, and practices. The Royal System will NOT adapt to you, and your demands.
This is especially true of the Imperial Family of Japan, the worlds most conservative Royal System.

Naruhito's brother, Akishino attacked him and gave him public hell, whilst his own parents did likewise. So, he wasn't at liberty to attack The System any further.

I have truly enjoyed reading the exchange of opinions. I would like to commend you on such thorough understanding of Asian culture.
Fully sharing your views, I would like to note the following. Crown Princess Masako can not just get a divorce and go on with her life like Princess Alexandra of Denmark or Princess Diana did. She has to weigh pros and cons super carefully. Divorce involving members of the Imperial family is viewed as unacceptable. If Crown Princess Masako opts for divorce, she may become an outcast. Her only child may be taken away from her (this will not surprise me much). Furthermore, divorce may adversely affect reputation of her family. Given the utter secrecy surrounding the Japanese Imperial family, it is hard to determine whether Crown Princess Masako recovers or not. At the same time, it will be fair to say that the IHA will announce her full recovery, if she gets pregnant again.
Right you are noting that Crown Prince Naruhito have exhausted his reasons to attack the system. Now it is up to Crown Princely couple to make a decision.

[HRH Abigail]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

I have truly enjoyed reading the exchange of opinions. I would like to commend you on such thorough understanding of Asian culture.
Fully sharing your views, I would like to note the following. Crown Princess Masako can not just get a divorce and go on with her life like Princess Alexandra of Denmark or Princess Diana did. She has to weigh pros and cons super carefully. Divorce involving members of the Imperial family is viewed as unacceptable. If Crown Princess Masako opts for divorce, she may become an outcast. Her only child may be taken away from her (this will not surprise me much). Furthermore, divorce may adversely affect reputation of her family. Given the utter secrecy surrounding the Japanese Imperial family, it is hard to determine whether Crown Princess Masako recovers or not. At the same time, it will be fair to say that the IHA will announce her full recovery, if she gets pregnant again.
Right you are noting that Crown Prince Naruhito have exhausted his reasons to attack the system. Now it is up to Crown Princely couple to make a decision.

And, I APPRECIATE your understanding as well. I TRY to understand other cultures.
I don't always succeed.
I may disagree with how others choose to live, but I TRY to feel for what they go through.
I thank you, for acknowledging me in this manner.

I think you are correct, in stating that it is hard to determine whether Crown Princess Masako recovers or not. Well said. Her state of mind is still very much up in the air, isn't it?

I also agree with you that it is up to The Crown Princely Couple to make their own decision about how best they wish to proceed, regarding the future of their own marriage.

I also agree with you, that divorcing Naruhito will be most hard on Masako, and that their divorce will not go as easily as Charles' and Diana's did. She will be seen to be an outcast, and will lose likely all contact with Aiko, which may be most sad indeed.

I would LOVE nothing better than to see Crown Princess Masako get fully better and commit to getting fully well, too!
It really is in her best interest to serve her Country right now.
She loves Naruhito, I have a strong hunch, and he ADORES her.
It's just that there is only so much that he can do to "fight the powers" and he just cannot go any further than to do what he can do, BY LAW.
Naruhito is STUCK, in a way.
And, right now, as Japanese Law stands, Masako has NO CHOICE but to make more of an effort to conform to the rigid laws and practices of The Imperial Household Agency.

I have utmost confidence in Masako.

I KNOW she has it in her to do well against great odds, and she can come out a Winner!

Now, let's see her strive to WIN.

I KNOW she can do this.

[ChiaraC]

Dear Abbie, as you probably can imagine I feel exceedingly flattered. (I am indeed German, no native speaker.) Thank you very much!

For me, it is a wonderful experience, too, that people can clearly express differing opinions without taking it personally and without quarrel. It takes two for that… Thank you. In this way, dissent is not an annoyance but to the contrary, a pleasure and something that helps me to learn and to see new aspects. I still don´t agree with you in some points but while contemplating about what you said I came to think about some things I probably otherwise would never have thought of.

I think we do agree in that there should be some change in Masako´s situation because it is obviously disagreeable to everybody concerned. We differ concerning WHO should change. But when we come to the REASONS for our views perhaps we are already getting closer to each other… Basically, you say (if I understand you right) that whatever one might think about the necessity of change in the system, the system certainly won´t change, so it has to be Masako, for practical reasons if not for any else. And I say, it´s the system that has to change because any other change would be purely "cosmetical".

I still think I am right but I am afraid you are right, too. I am well aware that when a powerful group of people is resolved against facing reality and against opening themselves for necessary change, centuries may pass before they are forced into it... ("The earth is flat." How much time and suffering, how many burnt "heretics" did it take us to get that one right? - Just one example.) (And, to make that absolutely clear, I am NOT talking about any individual in the imperial family. They are all paying their price for belonging to the system, and some of them a fairly high one, especially the women.)

Considering this, I have come to reflect about what I think Masako COULD do. And, honestly, I don´t think she should – or even could – "try harder". Look, she is an eldest child, an eldest daughter even, in a culture that prefers sons, and she has a very strong will. Taking into account these facts, I´d bet ten freshly made cream cakes against your old green hat that she is highly over-responsible, is very hard upon herself and expects herself to be absolutely perfect. The pressure from the people surrounding her is undoubtedly immense but maybe the pressure she is putting UPON HERSELF is even stronger. If she could remove at least that she might have much better chances to recover.

Accordingly, in my opinion, she should just relax, let go, forgive herself for being &