Divorce rumours for Princess Masako ?

[Charlotte1]

Originally Posted by bbb

since families don't want their children marrying a royal do they aspire to marriages to the powers in the IHA?

The IHA is a large corporation, in the past many of the employees were generational, that is the same family worked in the same capacity, but that is no longer the case. ( The British royal family has similar royal retainers) IHA employees are now recruited from various fields. For example, the head of the CP household was recruited from the Diplomatic corps, he had worked with Masako's father in Russia many years ago. Masako's assistant ( chief lady in waiting I think is her title, you can see her in some photos with Masako going into the Imperial Palace) is US educated like Masako and was recruited from the business sector. The person responsible for Aiko's childcare and education has a degree in Early Childhood, and was recruited from outside because of her speciality. Unlike in the past when the royal children were brought up by the palace family retainers ( the old aunties they were called) The new doctor ( he's an IHA employee) came from one of Tokyo's hospitals. ( Can't remember though whose doctor he is, the Emperors?)
The IHA employees are employees in a major corporation and that corportation happens to be the one whose main job is the maintenance of the lifestyle and tradition that is the Imperial Family. With its employees now coming from various areas I think it would be very difficult for anyone to plan to marry someone thinking they would end up being IHA employees. Plus where's the power? It's not the government, social status, well they're really nothing more than servants, so there's not that much social status. To influence? The royals are totally independent from business, government, finance.
An ambitious parent would more likely look to marry their child into one of the wealthy business family, than an IHA employee.

[Vanesa]

I repeat: I'm not a feminist. I know perfectly what feminism is. I'm an history teacher and I must know. If not, I should be fired from the High School where I am teaching and I hould not have the prize I got for my book about French Revolution.

A movement is not only the deffinition of a word in a dictionnary, but its own story. What it shows about itself. Having studied suffragist movement, and feminism since times of French Revolution (and ever before), I could state that I'm not a feminist. And I'm sure of what I'm saying. This is not a semantic discussion, but a social, cultural and historical one. If you read what the word "Communism" really mean, you'll accept is even romantic...But this is what ruled in Russia since 1917 until 1989? I don't think so...And search the word "Liberalism". And then search "Human Rights". All these are merely words, not showing what they really has behind them. Deffinitions sounds always very nice. But life is another thing.


Other issue: you said that Princess Masako could have a physical illness who could cause her character problems. Right! Then she must be treated for it and things will be well again, not only for her, but for everybody. If she doesn't treat her illness, she will suffer as she is suffering now. If her illness is a psychologic one, she must be treated too. I'm not trying to replace medical intervention. But every doctor will said you (and you are free to go and speak with them about it) that every sick person will recover faster if she has a possitive attitude. I'm not inventing anything here . There are even medical records about this very issue. I will quote one, from real life: A man from privince of Buenos Aires, named Diego Figueroa had a minimal tubercular affection and was very depressed. In the same hospital than him, a young recently married girl, Alina Quattrocci was dying from the same illness, since her lungs were almost destroyed by TB. While she was in the hospital, Alina discovered she was pregnant and become so happy that she answered quickly to the TB treatment..The "dying" girl was cured after two months of treatment. She is still alive and now has four children. She is a very happy person. Diego Figueroa, who wasn't severely ill was depressed as we said, for he had lost his job and his mother recently...in the same two months that Alina was cured, his own lungs were all distroyed by TB and he died...It's a proved thing that possitive attitude help persons in their psychological and physical illness. Even in cancer and AIDS. There is people who was even cured of them by this attitude. Again, this is not my invention, this is not my fantasy. I'm not medically trained. Go to any hospital you know, speak with doctors and nurses and they will tell you the same I am telling to you here.

However, I don't think that Princess Masako has a so severe illness as TB, cancer, AIDS , aplastic animea or any other who could kill a person. If she has the will, she will be happy again. "If there is a will, there is a way". Do you remember? I don't think that will is all, I'm not candid. But I'm sure it's a lot, or that at least it's the first step to change a situation.

For me a Prince or a Princess must serve his/her people. I hope she will be able to do it as soon as possible. I don't hate her. I WANT to like her. I make all my efforts to like her. Be sure of it.

Vanesa.

[PadThaiPrincess]

What would be the chances of Princess Masako retaining even shared custody of the Princess Aiko if they were to divorce? There is no precedent for the Japanese Royals to look at what might happen if there was an official seperation. Would she lose contact with her child forever as some have said?

[bbb]

as someone fighting cancer i can no more "cure" myself with positive thinking than masako can "cure" herself and i must say i resent your condesending message that it implies, ie: if i die it's my fault i didn't have a good enough attitude. i agree my positive attitude is a big part of the fight and survival but it is chemo saving my life, the attitude just helps me get through it, but there have been dark days when depression hits and it's the most awful place to imagine, you are so low and sad, conjuring up a positive attitude is impossible and i don't have heavy expectations or the IHA controlling my every move like masako. the latest photos imo shows a happy and healthy woman i have every hope she's got control of her depression, but it's one step at a time and you never know when darkness can will hit again.
i don't think divorce is in the cards, they seem very close and happy little family, but from what i remember she would lose custody but that doesn't mean contact forever, surely even the IHA couldn't be that cold.

[Charlotte1]

Originally Posted by PadThaiPrincess

What would be the chances of Princess Masako retaining even shared custody of the Princess Aiko if they were to divorce? There is no precedent for the Japanese Royals to look at what might happen if there was an official seperation. Would she lose contact with her child forever as some have said?

Japan doesn't have no fault divorce, all Japanese women not just royals, if they are considered at fault in the marriage breakdown loose custody of their children. There is also no requirement, if the woman was seen to be at fault, for the former husband to pay any kind of maintenance. Basically they are left without their child and without any kind of income from the years they were married. Shared custody is very unusual in Japan, if the woman wasn't at fault and she does retain custody of the children their father doesn't tend to have much to do with them. But then again considering the long hours Japanese men work, Japanese fathers don't spend very much time with their children at all and generally only see them on weekends. During the week the fathers leave in the morning before the children are awake, and come home after they are asleep.

A good example of what happens with divorce in Japan is the situation of former Prime Minister Koizumi. Being an ambitious politician he needed a wife to fill out his profile, he agreed to an 'omiai' (an arranged marriage, still quite common in Japan) His advisors found him a suitable political wife, he met her the following day proposed, she agreed and they married. For a while all was good, then they had children and she couldn't spend as much time on the political hustings as before, she wasn't considered pulling her weight. Koizumi divorced her, she was considered at fault and he took custody of their 2 sons. She never saw them again, at the time she was pregnant with her 3rd son, she kept him but he never had contact with his father ( he tried recently and it made the papers) and the oldest 2 sons never had contact with their youngest brother. The oldest 2 are in their late 20's but have no desire to meet their mother, there is no contact.

If there were to be a divorce ( unlikely as the cp couple seem to be quite devoted to one another) Masako would loose custody of Aiko, she more than likely will be seen to be at fault and that's the way the divorce law is currently in Japan.


Before we have any more 'evil IHA' posts I'd point out that the custody of royal children belongs to the monarch, not just in Japan. Queen Elizabeth II had custody of William and Harry after their parents' divorce not Charles and Diana, both had access and the boys divided their time equally between them, but neither had custody. This was also the case for Beatrice and Eugenie, QEII had custody ( and still has on Eugenie until she turns 18) Andrew and Sarah had access and the girls actually at first lived fulltime with Sarah. Tha Danish royals as part of the prenuptial agreement agree that any children will remain in Denmark, foreign wives cannot decided to leave the country and take their children. If they want to stay with their children they need to live in Denmark, otherwise they don't have custody of their children.

[bbb]

thanks for a very interesting post charlotte. that is a sad story, i know it's a culture thing but it seems so tragic and wrong (not knowing your mother or brother).
i didn't know QEII had custody, thanks for enlightening me, it's facinating and i suppose in a royal world it makes perfect sense. i admire the royal families that have dealt with this issue in a classy way (norway, denmark especially) "staying friendly" and not using the poor children as pawns and weapons.

[HRH Abigail]

Originally Posted by Warren

The Empress Nagako (Kojun) didn't help matters. Apparently she never forgave Michiko for not being a princess from one of the old princely families, as she herself was. No doubt many within the IHA shared the same view. When she married into the Imperial Family it was hoped that Akihito and Michiko's experience of the Old Guard would somehow protect Masako from the same stresses, but it was not to be.

We can blame the IHA all we like, but the IHA is not the only power within the Imperial Palace compound.

I have heard tell of the fact that Empress Nagako was royally horrific to poor CP Michiko, when she first married Akihito, to the extent that later caused Michiko to have a fully-blown nervious breakdown. Nagako never really, or so it appears to me anyway, gave poor Michiko a CHANCE to become learned in Royal Ways, but rather judged her as being totally unfit from the outset, which, (if I may say so) is awfully un-called for and most unfair, don't you think?

-- Abbie

[Al_bina]

Originally Posted by Charlotte1

A good example of what happens with divorce in Japan is the situation of former Prime Minister Koizumi. Being an ambitious politician he needed a wife to fill out his profile, he agreed to an 'omiai' (an arranged marriage, still quite common in Japan) His advisors found him a suitable political wife, he met her the following day proposed, she agreed and they married. For a while all was good, then they had children and she couldn't spend as much time on the political hustings as before, she wasn't considered pulling her weight. Koizumi divorced her, she was considered at fault and he took custody of their 2 sons. She never saw them again, at the time she was pregnant with her 3rd son, she kept him but he never had contact with his father ( he tried recently and it made the papers) and the oldest 2 sons never had contact with their youngest brother. The oldest 2 are in their late 20's but have no desire to meet their mother, there is no contact.

I have learnt these amazing facts about PM Koizumi's personal life from one of the Russian new papers. He was dubbed "Real Samurai" for being so rigid and traditional.

[Vanesa]

I was wondering if nowadays, the word "rigid" is becoming a synonimous of "having principles and keeping attached to them", and if being "traditionalist" is a sin. There is no freedom in a world on which we are forced to be "free" (which it is a way of being slave), and "liberal", and it's a great tiranny to have to accept values (or I should said contre-values) that we are not agreeing with.

We MUST be modern; we MUST fight against tradition (even when we are Monarchist); we MUST want the new conception of family, we MUST affect to accept all the new cultural world in which we are being forced to live. And if not, we are blamed as antisocial people.

Vanesa.

[Vanesa]

Originally Posted by bbb

as someone fighting cancer i can no more "cure" myself with positive thinking than masako can "cure" herself and i must say i resent your condesending message that it implies, ie: if i die it's my fault i didn't have a good enough attitude. i agree my positive attitude is a big part of the fight and survival but it is chemo saving my life, the attitude just helps me get through it, but there have been dark days when depression hits and it's the most awful place to imagine, you are so low and sad, conjuring up a positive attitude is impossible and i don't have heavy expectations or the IHA controlling my every move like masako. the latest photos imo shows a happy and healthy woman i have every hope she's got control of her depression, but it's one step at a time and you never know when darkness can will hit again.
i don't think divorce is in the cards, they seem very close and happy little family, but from what i remember she would lose custody but that doesn't mean contact forever, surely even the IHA couldn't be that cold.

You are being rude to me without any reason. I'm only quoting cientific evidence. Consult to any doctor you know and he/she will said the same than I was saying above. No invention of my part.

And of course, I was NOT saying that if you dies from cancer is your fault. If you read this in my post, I'm explaining myself really badly. Cancer is an extreme case in which possitive attitude could help a lot or not, but it mostly helps. Do research in this issue and tell me. I'm not speaking without knowing anytihing about it: sadly, this illness killed my beloved granny (who was very depressed by this time, since her mother has dead some time ago from a very complicated illness) when she was still young, and also my aunt, a very agressive person, a feminist and a person with sexual troubles (you see I'm being VERY sincere to you here). The doctors who treated my aunt said that if she was not so angry with the world, she could have been cured. She literally would fabriquate tumor after tumor. On the other hand a cousin of mine had cancer and was cured quite fastly, for she has a great faith in the treatment and was a very happy person without troubles with anyone. But I'm seeing that you are a person that only believes in what you touchs. Science alone could cure. Faith, love, happyness, good attitude tyoward the others, this doesn't counts for you.

But the Crownprincess HAS NOT CANCER. Her problem is much less complicate. You are saying and re-saying again and again that she must not try to be happy and possitive. Independently of "the evil IHA" troubles and such, a possitive attitude could help her to live easily..but no; for you, she is the "poor little one" attacked by everyone and must not change. Is the others who must. In the worst of the cases, BOTH, IHA and Crownprincess must change, at least, a little.

I'm not attacking Princess Masako; I'm not interested in such a thing, as I'm not interested in discussing malicious rumours about my neighbors. I'm not this kind of person. Here, it seems that f you don't approves the way of acting of a princess or a prince, is for you are against him or her for some osbcure reason. This is not a match of football, in which a team is against another. This is social; this is politics, and, as a person interested in Monarchy's future, I don't discuss the Crownprincess for a malicious feeling or wanting of causing her any harm. I'm very concerned seeing that even an Institution as Monarchy is being influenced for contre-culture, and since I see this institution as a way of keeping safe some great vertues and way of life I admire, I'm worried about what it is becoming. Maybe I'm wrong. But still, these are my feelings and my way of thinking.

And...may you make a little effort and write in an English I can understand a little better? English is NOt my first language and I make a great effort for people could understand me. But English is your native tongue and yet you writes wthout a clear ponctuation and I can't follow you as well as I should want.

Vanesa.

[Al_bina]

Vanessa,
It is not bad to be traditional and rigid. However, being traditional and rigid takes on a negative meaning in the case of Mr. Koizumi’s personal life. He rejected his youngest son, thereby punishing this young man, because his wife failed to be a perfect spouse for the politician. Is this young man guilty of this failure? I do not think so.
Traditions and adherence to beliefs and values are an important part of human personality, but there should be the golden mean in everything, which keeps us from running to extremes.

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by Charlotte1

Before we have any more 'evil IHA' posts I'd point out that the custody of royal children belongs to the monarch, not just in Japan. Queen Elizabeth II had custody of William and Harry after their parents' divorce not Charles and Diana, both had access and the boys divided their time equally between them, but neither had custody. This was also the case for Beatrice and Eugenie, QEII had custody ( and still has on Eugenie until she turns 18) Andrew and Sarah had access and the girls actually at first lived fulltime with Sarah. Tha Danish royals as part of the prenuptial agreement agree that any children will remain in Denmark, foreign wives cannot decided to leave the country and take their children. If they want to stay with their children they need to live in Denmark, otherwise they don't have custody of their children.

However, there's a difference in that, as you say, Masako would have very little contact with her daughter after a divorce because she'd be seen to be at fault regardless of the contributing factors to her condition. Whereas Diana and Sarah, as well as Alexandra, have had generous access to their children. I really doubt that the Queen would have denied her ex-daughters in law access to their children in anything other than the most extreme circumstances. While that isn't a decision of the IHA or even probably of the Emperor but is more a cultural issue, it does make a difference to Masako's options, especially since she and her husband do seem to be happy and the pressure for a divorce, if any, seems to be coming from elsewhere.

[Elspeth]

We seem to be having some misunderstandings here about the nature of mental illness. While a positive attitude is helpful in many cases when someone is ill, it isn't always possible for someone with certain types of mental illness to maintain a positive attitude. This was also a criticism of the royal family's response to Diana's problem - their apparent feeling that she should just buck up and get over it, when that might not have been possible for her.

I really don't think anyone is meaning to be rude here, and in a discussion of a topic like this it's always helpful to give other people the benefit of the doubt, especially when the participants are from different cultures and not everyone is a native English speaker. Mental illness has always tended to be a misunderstood disease, and Masako's condition seems to be no exception.

[reen]

I've noticed that withdrawal in the Royal Japanese female has usually signaled turmoil within the household. The current Empress is a good example. In earlier years she was driven to a breakdon by those within the Imperial household. Masako's case must have been worse as she had not produced the requisite male heir.
I don't think that there is as much pressure on her now as the royal line will continue with the birth of her nephew, and I think that the pressure on her will decrease over time. Should she decide to risk another pregnancy, I'm sure the information from the IHA would include news of her full recovery.

I also want to say how much I agree with the latest post from Al bina, as I greatly admire moderation.

[Charlotte1]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

However, there's a difference in that, as you say, Masako would have very little contact with her daughter after a divorce because she'd be seen to be at fault regardless of the contributing factors to her condition. Whereas Diana and Sarah, as well as Alexandra, have had generous access to their children. I really doubt that the Queen would have denied her ex-daughters in law access to their children in anything other than the most extreme circumstances. While that isn't a decision of the IHA or even probably of the Emperor but is more a cultural issue, it does make a difference to Masako's options, especially since she and her husband do seem to be happy and the pressure for a divorce, if any, seems to be coming from elsewhere.

True that if Masako divorced the way the law currently stands in Japan she would more than likely have no contact with her child. But if were look at this hypothetical situation we need to take into consideration the characters of the Emperor and Empress and the changes they have brought into the Imperial Family and whether they would actually deny Masako access.
They were the first CP couple who resisted pressure ( from all, the IHA courtiers and the former Emperor and Empress) to have their children live with them and bring them up. They also insisted that their children's education be left to the Japanese education system, not IHA employees who were responsible in the past.
They totally broke with tradition and attended their daughter's wedding, the tradition being that the Emperor and Empress not attend, they didn't attend Naruhito's or Akishino's wedding. But they were so close to Sayako as she lived with them until she was 36, that they wanted to attend her wedding. Having broken that tradition means that Naruhito and Masako will be able to attend their daughter's wedding.
So just like QEII wouldn't have denied Diana and Sarah access to their children, it can't automatically be claimed that Akihito would deny Masako access either.