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  #201  
Old 01-08-2008, 11:56 AM
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Smile I know I am lacking behind....

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Originally Posted by HRH Abigail View Post
ChiaraC, may I commend you on your EXCELLENT command of English? It is superlative and there are Americans who don't speak it nearly as well as you write it. I am floored, impressed beyond measure --
Oh, because your location is listed as being Berlin, I am assuming that you are German and not a native American. Correct?

Also, I rather LIKE the polite tone of your message and how you can disagree with someone yet do so civilly.
It's OK to disagree with anyone, here.
Just do so with some semblance of courtesy, that's all.

OK, about the lovely and troubled Masako ...

Well, you KNOW we don't entirely disagree.

See, my problem with her dithering is that she has had YEARS to get treatment and the help out there that is available to her, IF she really wanted to partake of it. For example, I am sure the IHA would consent to sending her away for treatment somewhere else, were she (as The Crown Princess) to request that they do so, you know? After all, it is in their best interest to get her well and doing the duty to which she consented when she elected (finally!) to marry Naruhito.

You CAN'T (as Diana learnt to her peril) CHANGE Royalty, especially if you are Commoner who's married into it. Diana was NO Commoner but she was too "modern" for the antiquated Royal status quo.
One has NO CHOICE but to adapt to IT and its archaic rules, peccadillos, and practices. The Royal System will NOT adapt to you, and your demands.
This is especially true of the Imperial Family of Japan, the worlds most conservative Royal System.
Masako KNEW EXACTLY what she was getting into when she married, ChiaraC. That's why she took her sweet time in accepting Naruhito's proposal. He told her the truth: That he'd all that was within his power to do, to help and guide her thru' the Labyrinth of Royal Practices and Protocol.
Trouble is, HE could NOT defy the System into which he was born. He had to give into it, when he realised that he had only a certain amount of "power" to change it.
Remember, shortly after he and Masako were married that Naruhito came out and CRITICISED his own family for not giving enough responsibilities to his wife and for not allowing her to use HER skills to enhance the Imperial System?
Well, what fall-out came from that? Naruhito's brother, Akishino attacked him and gave him public hell, whilst his own parents did likewise. So, he wasn't at liberty to attack The System any further.

The ball is now firmly in Masako's Court, rightly or wrongly, fairly or not, ChiaraC. She must take the steps needed to sort herself out, and get better, in order to be a fully functioning member to the family into which she consented (AFTER YEARS of deliberation and thought -- soul-searching, if you will) to enter.

Frankly? I think The Imperial Family has BEEN most tolerant of Masako. It has given her almost 6 years of breathing room! She has been in almost total seclusion for a long while, now, only occasionally making public appearances for photo-ops and other MANDATOURY appearances.

I think Masako must decide: Can she cut it? She knows if she can, ChiaraC. If she isn't comfortable with her Status and the Status Quo, then she should suggest a Divorce ... for the good of her own health, and .. for the good of The Imperial Family.

Oh, and by the way: "Face-saving" is SERIOUS business to Asians. It frequently is NOT wholly-understood by Westerners, but ... it is highly INadvisable to put people in the position where they even MIGHT be embarrassed lest they "Lose Face" because ... to Asians, this is a very serious offence.
WE just toss of being embarrassed but to anyone Asian, this is the most humiliating thing one can do to them, and in Japan it is completely frowned upon, especially the higher up the Social Pecking order that you go.

People go to GREAT lengths to be verry polite and AGREEABLE to their fellow-men and women, over in Asia, lest their Compatriouts Face be lost and they suffer unduly.

It's a huge deal.
I think that to avoid losing face herself, that Masako must think about how what she does, or doesn't do, reflects upon her adopted family, who have RISKED taking her on! You know, they weren't too terribly keen on Naruhito even marrying Masako, UNTIL his parents met HERS and got many assurances that she knew exactly how to best SERVE her country ... And, that's just what Royals do.
They SERVE!

I love reading your posts. I am AMAZED and shocked at how very well you write English, when many Americans don't even bother to learn another's language all that well.

Thanks and take care,

-- Abbie

How many interesting and detailed informations have been shared... I especially appreciate the "background information" about Masako and Kiko. I don´t share a view of the world that says that you have to "choose sides" and that one has to be called black and the other white. I even think that this is a very useful strategy to divide women and make them fight against each other, or even, to do the same to persons both male and female and make them quarrel and so become part of the problem instead of being part of the solution. It IS possible to appreciate the qualities of one without overlooking the qualities of the other. United, we stand...

I don´t go into the internet every day and was "carrying around" Abbie´s post with me. And although life did go on here very fast INDEED I still want to share my thoughts. (Maybe we are already getting to this point again, considering what Countess wrote about Masako " being hidden, as if she were a leper"...) (And thank you again, Abbie, for all you said!)

I understand that the members of the imperial family SERVE. And I think that is something that should absolutely be appreciated and respected. I am not against doing one´s duty, to the contrary. (I am German, remember?)

But, seriously, maybe it is exactly for this reason that I think it so very important to think twice about what really IS one´s duty. There was a time in our (German) national history when you would have had to break the law and oppose the official authorities in order to do your real duty (your God-given duty or however you would call that) - for the benefit of your country and its people. But, unfortunately, there were only very few who understood that. If there had been more of them, the dying of millions of people might have been prevented...

This experience has made me think a lot about the essential nature of duty and has made me try to really and deeply understand it. It IS sometimes hard and disagreable to do your duty but it doesn´t work the other way round, not necessarily. The fact that you feel uncomfortable with something unfortunately does NOT give you the guarantee that it is really your duty you are doing…

The imperial family is setting an example for people how to live and how to deal with the problems that arise in life. I am aware that "face-saving" is, generally speaking, more important in Asia than in the Western culture. But I happen to come from a family (and they are rather common here around) that pays a lot of attention to "appearances" and "what the people next door will think". A higher middle class family with everybody having good jobs, attending good schools etc. You would never imagine how much emotional pain, how many addictions, married couples without any real communication etc. there are in this family. You believe it now because I am saying it but if you saw them you would think I must be joking. They look so normal. Nice, normal people. And that´s what they are. I don´t mean to say they are bad. They are suffering and doing their best, only they have been hurt so badly as children that they can´t feel any more what they are doing.
And there is no getting out of it because it is not allowed to say and even to see the truth. (If anybody really breaks out (like my oncle who gave up his well paid position as a high school teacher to become a shepherd in Greece) they are disowned.)

Nearly EVERY emotional wound CAN be healed. But for that it has to be laid open to the sunshine, cleaned and taken care of. If you are never allowed to remove the dirty covers because "the people next door might see it" the misery just goes on. (I am aware that all this sounds pretty dramatical. I am sorry for that but I thought I have to explain this to show "where I come from" and why I think it so important to sometimes let things look just as ugly as they happen to be.)

I admire the open way in which the royal family of Sweden dealt with the anorexia of their eldest daughter. And I think by this they really SERVED their people because now it will be easier for people to see and admit it if their own child is suffering from this illness. They won´t have to deny that anything bad is happening, they won´t have to be afraid of feeling guilty for it. They can say: "Well, that sort of things happen, it even happened to the royal family, that´s o.k." and can go and get for their child the very best medical help that is available.

I know you can´t compare Sweden to Japan. All I am saying is that even in such a "face-saving" culture (and maybe there especially) such people are badly needed who are able to set an example not by appearing to be perfect but by admitting their human fragility and vulnerability and, by doing so, set their people free from the shame that is binding them and preventing them from growing and from getting help. And I think that this is a form of serving that is very much needed (not only in Japan), that takes a lot of courage and is very admirable and honourable indeed.
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  #202  
Old 01-08-2008, 11:58 AM
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Another example for what I mean has come to my mind, and this time it is Japanese…
As I already mentioned somewhere, I practice Aikido. Its founder, Morihei Ueshiba, was a master in most of the classical japanese "budo" arts and was very famous for it. So, during the Second World War, officials asked him to assist in the training of the troops.

He said no. He thought that his country was making a big mistake in taking part in this war that they would have to regret bitterly in the future, and he definitely did not mean to support this. Although his behaviour at the time was not appreciated AT ALL (as you can probably imagine) I think he served his country better than he would have done if he had just blindly obeyed. (It was not his fault that his warnings were not heeded.)

It is not only Swedish people who can do it…

And I think that it is in this way that Naruhito and Masako are trying to serve their country. (I don´t know for sure if they will get there but, fortunately, after Masako looking so beautiful on New year´s day, there seems to be reason to hope.) The CP and the CPess are neither egotistical nor self-centered, it is just that they have a concept of duty that differs a bit from the traditional one and that is, in my opinion, very helpful and should be most carefully considered.
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  #203  
Old 01-08-2008, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbb View Post
as someone fighting cancer i can no more "cure" myself with positive thinking than masako can "cure" herself and i must say i resent your condesending message that it implies, ie: if i die it's my fault i didn't have a good enough attitude. i agree my positive attitude is a big part of the fight and survival but it is chemo saving my life, the attitude just helps me get through it, but there have been dark days when depression hits and it's the most awful place to imagine, you are so low and sad, conjuring up a positive attitude is impossible and i don't have heavy expectations or the IHA controlling my every move like masako. the latest photos imo shows a happy and healthy woman i have every hope she's got control of her depression, but it's one step at a time and you never know when darkness can will hit again.
i don't think divorce is in the cards, they seem very close and happy little family, but from what i remember she would lose custody but that doesn't mean contact forever, surely even the IHA couldn't be that cold.
I hope you don´t mind me saying the following or feel that I am stepping over boundaries. If so, please don´t hesitate to tell me.

I really do admire your courage in laying open your threatened situation to the world and in sharing the feelings that accompany it. Most of us here only have the competence to discuss cancer or depression from a theoretical point of view. That is certainly not bad, especially when we try to make use of our empathy but, of course, the person who is actually having the experience always knows best.

I hope the price you are paying for this experience is not too high... Always remember what a courageous brilliant human being you are. I wish you much strength and all the best. Take care!
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  #204  
Old 01-08-2008, 01:18 PM
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thank you for your kind words, i have a super support team, i'm not sure masako has that luxury.
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  #205  
Old 01-08-2008, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bbb View Post
thank you for your kind words, i have a super support team, i'm not sure masako has that luxury.
With a very caring husband and so lovely daughter, I'm sure it will help her to recover, but it seems that she needs more than that. I truly hope that she has the super support team like yours. Thanks for share us your experience.
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  #206  
Old 01-09-2008, 03:56 PM
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Well said...And I should like to add AGAIN (since it seems this must be repeated and repeated) that , at least on my part, thre is NO HATE to Crownprincess Masako, who, I do not doub must be suffering and must feel herself miserable.

I tried to discuss thins more seriously and not only from her pespective, that if must be heard, is not the only one. Sometimes, people tends to forget we are discussing public characters and not individual people as our relatives and friends could be. No, Masako is a Crownprincess and has her official duties. Of course she has a private life, in which she must try to be happy too, but a public character like she is, must be always think that she would be less free than me and you. It should not be different if she was the President of a country, or even a Deputy. When you enteres in a family that IS NOT an ordinary family, things will be different for you, and you knows it from the start. And of course, you'll not be able to live a completely free life. People has their eyes ALWAYS on you, even if papparazzies are not around, and journalist will be always trying to find something wrong you did, to distroy you. You must be a very strong character to became a Royal (or a President, or any public character), and I think that Royals by birth may accept this faster than a commoner, not for they are superior to us, but for they are facing cameras and people cheering them even in the craddle. A person who is not ready to have the medias above them all day long cannot be Royals. That's simple.

Another little thing: All IMperial or Royals families has rules. Some of them are more permissive than others, but all of them have rules. When you marries a Royal, you are buying these family laws along with him/her. These rules are not arbitrary, and cannot be all uniforms , for one country is different from the other and cannot have the same laws. Every country has their history, and cannot erase them copying other countries institutions and way of thinking for their developpement was different.

Japanese are excellent people but (God thanks! I love difference!), different from us, Argentinians. And we, Argentinians are also different from Cubans or French people, God thanks too. We may like or no like other peoples ways of life, but we have no right to have opinions about them. Their people alone is able to change them, ONLY IF THEY WANT, and not under pressure of other countries who believes they are superior. So, I can't judge IHA (much less not having a complete idea of what they want, who they are and how much people from Japan loves or hates them) , nor Imperial Family rules.

The trouble is when a Japanese person is educated following Western patterns of behavior. When they must to live in a japanese culture, they suffers a lot..as well as if a japanese person was forced to accept my own values. I think this is - a little- Crownprincess Masako's problem. Poor woman, for if there is, she will be condamned to be an outsider in at her own motherland. I wish to her, the best in the world. I wish her she could improve and be happy, since, as it was said by El-Khanz, her husband and daughter loves her. I also wish to her he could have the love of her people. She will be an Empress and an Empress without her peoples loves will suffer. And I do not like her to suffer in any way.

Vanesa.
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  #207  
Old 01-11-2008, 10:30 PM
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When Masko becomes Empress, I think the Japnese people will love her. I think they do now. I doubt there will be a divorce. I think the best thing will be for Masako and the Crown Prince to develop a relationship with their nephew so that there is harmony and good will within the Royal family.
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  #208  
Old 01-12-2008, 08:32 PM
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Perhaps, when they reign, they can try and bring the monarchy into the 21st century and have women reign, too.
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  #209  
Old 02-13-2008, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Perhaps, when they reign, they can try and bring the monarchy into the 21st century and have women reign, too.
And do you think that's fair to Hisahito or Aiko?

One can disagree with Japan's succession rules all you want. But according to the rules, Hisahito is next in line, and if people wanted to change the rules, they should have been (and could have been) changed before he was born.

It could take years for the rules to change, and that would put both Aiko and Hisahito's lives literally on hold. The best thing they could do was change the rules starting with Hisahito's heirs, and or suggest that after Hisahito (if he doesn't have kids) Aiko, then Mako, then Kako. But to change the rules let's say 10 years later, isn't right.
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  #210  
Old 02-13-2008, 08:43 PM
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Life evolves. This poor boy's only reason for existance is to inherit the throne. He was born to take away the problem. That is terrible. I am sure his family will love him, nevertheless. When Masako and her husband are on the throne, then is the time to make a move to get rid of this antiquated idea. Aiko is the rightful heir. God know, if that is a gift or not. But Hisahito is an artificial heir, conceived and dedicated to eliminating women from inheritance. This is the 21 century.
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  #211  
Old 02-14-2008, 10:41 AM
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"This is the 21 century"
apparantly not in japan. i agree with everyword of your post countess!!!!!
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  #212  
Old 02-14-2008, 04:14 PM
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And do you think that's fair to Hisahito or Aiko?

One can disagree with Japan's succession rules all you want. But according to the rules, Hisahito is next in line, and if people wanted to change the rules, they should have been (and could have been) changed before he was born.

It could take years for the rules to change, and that would put both Aiko and Hisahito's lives literally on hold. The best thing they could do was change the rules starting with Hisahito's heirs, and or suggest that after Hisahito (if he doesn't have kids) Aiko, then Mako, then Kako. But to change the rules let's say 10 years later, isn't right.
As of now, Hisahito is third in line after his father Akishino so if both Naruhito and Akishino live as live long as the Emperor, he wouldn't be Emperor til... do the math.

There is plenty of time to amend the constitution without putting the children's lives on hold. I see no reason why Princess Aiko couldn't ascend the throne after Naruhito.
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  #213  
Old 02-16-2008, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Mandy View Post
As of now, Hisahito is third in line after his father Akishino so if both Naruhito and Akishino live as live long as the Emperor, he wouldn't be Emperor til... do the math.

There is plenty of time to amend the constitution without putting the children's lives on hold. I see no reason why Princess Aiko couldn't ascend the throne after Naruhito.
Well considering the age of his father and uncle and the fact that Naruhito and Masako are not likely to have another child, Hisahito has a good chance of thinking he will succeed to the throne. Now, if the Crown Prince has a son, the Crown Prince has a son, but that is becoming increasingly unlikely...

Which means that Hishahitio will have no choice but to be prepared to eventually be emperor.

From what I understand training to be emperor takes years and years of grooming. To make it a "no mansland" where Aiko and Hisahito both have to live their lives not knowing isn't fair. NOw it would be one thing if Naruhito has a son, then Hisahito will know the deal. But it's a whole other thing to ma ke Hisahito prepare and live with all the presure. And say you know what we are going with Aiko. Then he can just be like why did you waste all my time, and my life, when you could have just gone with Aiko in the beginning.

For example, in Norway, there is a new law which states that oldest child. The crown prince of Norway has elder sisters, but the new law applies only to the Crown Prince's children. Because the people realized that it would be unfair to make the Crown Prince prepare all his life (and not prepare his sisters) and then just to take it away. These are real lives.

Third in line, fourth in line. Every year that passes makes it more likely that Hisahito will reign someday. It's not like those ahead of him are young.
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Old 02-16-2008, 03:38 AM
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I think it is a sad state of affairs today for the Japaneese royals. It seems they have no control over their lives like their European counterparts. It seems the court controls them. It's like they are puppets. Who knows if they can change anything. I wish they would have a female emperor. But I doubt that will happen in my lifetime.
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:18 PM
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I have found some facts concerning divorce in the imperial family, and as the divorce rumours for princess Masako seem to come back again from time to time like a boomerang – probably when there is again some journalist desperately searching for something to write about her and finding old articles in the internet – I want to post them here. Actually, I knew the whole time that I have read them SOMEWHERE but I was absolutely unable to remember where, and I thought if somebody asks me for the source, I can only say: “Sorry…” So, I will put it here for just in case… And in this way I will, at least, remember in future where I got this information from. 
This is from a link that I have found somewhere in the older threads of this forum (but at present do not remember where ) and have saved the contents in order to read them at leisure but somehow never did it thoroughly until now, at the time I did it only superficially. It is called: “Pandora´s Box: The Chrysanthemum Throne.
This is the link:

History of the Japanese royal family

The information about divorce comes from the fourth and last part: "The Princess and the "Grey Men"."

The author says in it that the same month as the IHA made the announcement, that Masako was suffering from “adjustment disorder”, suggestions of divorce were “leaked” from the IHA to the Japanese press. Both of this happened shortly after the famous press conference of the Crown Prince on May 10, 2004, during which he had accused unnamed persons of having tried to nullify his wife´s character and career and which had caused great trouble to the IHA, to say the least.

The author of “The Chrysanthemum throne” believes that by making the Princess´ illness and its nature officially public “the IHA intentionally tried to create the impression of a mentally disturbed woman in order to strengthen their case against the Princess.” She also thinks that, in their opinion, the executives of the IHA had no time to lose “because, earlier this year, the Emperor was diagnosed with prostate cancer” as the law “prohibits an emperor from divorcing his wife; it does not, however, prevent a crown prince from doing so.”

She says that if the Emperor dies before the Crown Prince divorces, then the possibility of divorce (and thus, remarriage) would be gone forever. So, according to her, the IHA was at the time in a hurry to get rid of Masako as fast as possible. (In vain, as we know but that does not mean they have not done their very best towards it… )

But she also says that although an imperial prince can theoretically divorce his wife “the fact remains that divorce flies in the face of imperial tradition. There has been only one case of divorce in the entire history of the Imperial Family and that was just a minor relative of the Emperor, Prince Kitashirakawa, who obtained a divorce over a hundred years ago.”

I think that all this is very interesting and may be useful for any upcoming discussion about divorce in the imperial family in the future…
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:30 PM
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Countess thanks for putting this into it'strue framework. This is the 21st Century and change in this household id long overdue. IMO
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:13 PM
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This poor boy's only reason for existance is to inherit the throne. He was born to take away the problem. That is terrible.
All heirs are born to take away the succession issue. Anyway, I wouldn't pity someone whose birth was celebrated across the country and who is expected to become an emperor.

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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Aiko is the rightful heir.
Currently, Aiko is not the rightful heir, neither de jure nor de facto. It's just your opinion.

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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
God know, if that is a gift or not. But Hisahito is an artificial heir, conceived and dedicated to eliminating women from inheritance.
As it stands now, Hisahito is the rightful heir who is expected to become an emperor one day. He was conceived to save the Imperial Family from extinction in male line. The Imperial Throne has been passed through male line for more than 2,000 years and Hisahito's birth secured the continuity of that tradition. I don't think that the tradition is there to eliminate women from the line of succession; it actually eliminates female-line descendants from the line of succession.

There were empresses regnant in Japan before, so I wouldn't object to Aiko's accession (Aiko herself is descended from the emperors of Japan in male-line) if it was determined that she would be succeeded by her nearest male-line relative. The nearest male line relative could be Hisahito or one of his sons, or even her own son if she marries a male-line descendant of the former imperial branches.

This contiunity lasts for 2,000 years and it's too ancient to be broken so easily. I would support establishing male-preferance primogeniture in Liechenstein and Luxembourg, for example, but it's more complicated in Japan.

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"This is the 21 century"
apparantly not in japan.
It doesn't matter what century it is - this tradition exists for more than 20 centuries and it can't be changed so easily.
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  #218  
Old 02-24-2009, 11:05 AM
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Masko's father has certainly benefited, and I doubt he would have ever allowed her to leave Japan and her husband.
But she was an adult when she agreed (with her father's backing) to become Crown Princess
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Old 02-25-2009, 06:25 AM
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seeing this topic has been going on since 2005 and nothing happened between the crown princely couple in terms of divorce, i think it's fairly safe to assume that it was not true at all or that they, like any couple, were having some bad times. they seem to fortunately have been solved, which is great to hear as masako is such an adorable lady.
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:22 PM
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Smile

I absolutely agree, Carlota, this is why I have posted the information above that says that suggestions of divorce of the couple were “leaked” from the IHA to the Japanese press shortly after the famous press conference of the Crown Prince on May 10, 2004.

This supports my view that this story has been wishful thinking of IHA bureaucrats from the first. It has, anyway, often been stated in this forum that two people who look at each other like the prince and the princess still do after nearly 16 years of marriage can hardly be suspected of planning a divorce.

But still the story is being repeated by the press from time to time as you can see in another thread: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...a-15447-8.html
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