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  #161  
Old 09-05-2011, 04:12 PM
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Thank you for the additional information, Kasumil, particularly about Ben Hill. The scenario with the Emperor and the Crown Princess was something that I found hard imagining, actually.


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Ben Hill was sued in court for defamation, lost his case and had to appologize in written form. Japanese bookstores does not want to distribute his 'disgusting book'.
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  #162  
Old 09-05-2011, 04:31 PM
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Just because it's done doesn't mean it's the right thing to do- as more and more royal families have recognized by changing to equal primogeniture. All because people realized it wasn't right and changed it.

And can you imagine how difficult it would be to feel like you're inferior every day because of who you are and who your child is? It would be incredibly painful, and I think the effect on Masako's health and happiness is completely understandable.
She's Japanese and she knew the rules before she signed onto marry the future Emperor. I'm not even Japanese and I know better than to marry someone in that family because I couldn't deal with such rules. Japan is a different country than the European countries that have monarchies and they shouldn't be held to their standard. Japan has their rules and the rules are that only men can inherit; she knew she was going to have to have a son, she only had a daughter and now that a boy has been born there is no need to change the rules that they feel serve the country well enough. All Masako's complaining only seems to make her look worse and worse. Perhaps she should cease doing it and claiming a decade long adjustment disorder and just learn to deal with the situations she married into. Is it an ideal situation, no it is not; but if she can't get out of it and can't change it, then you need to learn to somehow live within it.
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  #163  
Old 09-05-2011, 05:02 PM
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You can't just snap out of depression. Mental illness doesn't work that way. Also she never had any control over whether or not she had a boy, and putting that on her is very unfair as we now know gender of the baby is determined by the male partner, not the female.

Unfair rules exist. They get changed when people recognize they're unjust and fight to change them, and blaming someone for doing that is very short sighted.
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  #164  
Old 09-05-2011, 05:08 PM
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She can only be sick with a personality disorder, or she isn't letting herself be helped and refuses to make the best of her situation. Her sickness has had the Imperial Family in an uproar for a decade now and it is likely negatively affecting her daughter.

Being royalty isn't about being politically correct, or 'fair' as we unroyals know it. It's about making a dedication to yourself to the public and putting aside personal preferences, and in some cases, rights. The aspects of inheritance in Japan is that the male line domniates and is the one that inherits. It's not politically correct, but the Imperial Family should not change thousands of years of tradition just to accomodate a troubled woman. The Jimmu dynasty is the longest reigning dynasty ever to reign Japan, the only one really. It should not change just because of the troubles of one generation. The commoner must accomodate themselves to the royal lifestyle, not the other way around.

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I'd be more keen so feel more sympathy for Masako if she still wasn't complaining about the same things for 10yrs. There have been hundreds of other women in Masako's position in and out of Japan who have learned to deal with it. But for a decade now there has been this adjustment disorder and problems with this particular person; after awhile it just gets tedious.
Doesn't she get tired of being miserable all the time? Doesn't she get tired of being sick? At what point is she going to end up getting it together and then proceeding to put her life back together as healthily and constructively as she possibly can? The Imperial Family cannot continue to center it's focus and life and routines on thte problems of a single family member that at this point must be refusing to cooperate in her treatment.
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  #165  
Old 09-05-2011, 05:23 PM
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Just because it's done doesn't mean it's the right thing to do- as more and more royal families have recognized by changing to equal primogeniture. All because people realized it wasn't right and changed it.
Is equal primogeniture necessarily the right choice, though? You're still discriminating in favor of the eldest, right? Maybe the heir should be the most intelligent instead. The thing is that all monarchial governments are inherently unfair; I think that once you start meddling with tradition it's the thin edge of the wedge.
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  #166  
Old 09-05-2011, 05:27 PM
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It's not about being "politically correct" it's about not actually oppressing real people and about trying to change a system that treats women like second class citizens. Does anyone really think that it's right and good for women to be treated this way? It doesn't matter if it's traditional if it's also harmful. Seppuku was also "traditional" but very few people would argue it should still be practiced!

And once again, you can't just "snap out" of a mental illness, particularly if the circumstances creating it don't change. I think it's terribly unfair to blame someone for being adversely affected by having to live under a system most people would consider incredibly unfair and dehumanizing. You can't just take a pill and make that go away.
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  #167  
Old 09-05-2011, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
You can't just snap out of depression. Mental illness doesn't work that way. Also she never had any control over whether or not she had a boy, and putting that on her is very unfair as we now know gender of the baby is determined by the male partner, not the female.

Unfair rules exist. They get changed when people recognize they're unjust and fight to change them, and blaming someone for doing that is very short sighted.
I never once said that it was her fault that she didn't have a boy. I am very much aware of how babies are made and how their genders are chosen and I don't need a biology lesson. I also have depression and have had it for about a decade, you can not snap out of it, but you can learn how to control it and get on medicine that makes you functional. Masako just seems to be getting worse and not better.

I agree Mirabel, monarchy in general is a set of rules that discriminates against the larger population. Who chose these select individuals to run/rule/reign over this country? Nobody did! They got there thousands of years ago and in some cases (England) tradition keeps them there. Aristocracy more so than a monarchy is more discriminating because aristocrats tend to serve no purpose save to make themselves richer, give each other titles, and pretend they are better than the masses. .
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  #168  
Old 09-05-2011, 08:43 PM
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but you can learn how to control it and get on medicine that makes you functional. Masako just seems to be getting worse and not better
.


BUt the thing is, you have cooperated in getting help and making the needed changes to better your lfe.


I've had to live with unstable people and had ot live with their personal demons as well. You have no clue how much damage it does to your life until you have had to pick up the pieces of your life after they blow through it.

There comes a point in this when they either have to keep Masako and let her be the center of everyone's life, making them adjust their lives for her sake and problems, or they will have to cut her loose and move on and find Naruhito a wife that is proven to be stable, fertile, and also a woman who can adjust to life in the Imperial Family. If her daughter has been having problems in school as a result of her issues and has problems handling teasing, it sounds like she's been getting worn down by her mother being sick. It could well be that Aiko has to spend a lot of her time on edge or getting herself through the problems in her home.

It's not about being treated like a second class citizen or protocol, or about not having a son. There have to be more embedded problems than this and at some point there will have to be a substantial change done to ensure that Aiko has a stable home life and that the Imperial Family can settle down. At least for Aiko she schould start making decisions.

Masako has been the center of the turmoil and I just wonder if the Emperor will lose patience at some point and demand that something be done that resolves this once and for all. He's old and likely tired and there is no reason that he shouldn't see his son. It's always the same with her, all the stupid time. Plenty of people learn to function as much as they can with mental problems and there is no reason for her to not start making hard choices to make herself better. Her daughter likely needs a stable home, even if the mother isn't there; if her mother is always going to be sick, it's best to just have Masako leave the Imperial Family and then live on her own and let Aiko visit. Aiko deserves more than a sick mother who causes constant tension in the household and prevents her from being a kid.

I can personally say I know what it's like to have a sick mother and it does wreck your life.
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  #169  
Old 09-05-2011, 09:16 PM
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Is equal primogeniture necessarily the right choice, though? You're still discriminating in favor of the eldest, right? Maybe the heir should be the most intelligent instead. The thing is that all monarchial governments are inherently unfair; I think that once you start meddling with tradition it's the thin edge of the wedge.

But surely just because you can't make something perfect doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make it better? I don't think the form of government I have in my country is in any way perfect but I don't think that means we need to scrap it altogether. Changing a monarchy doesn't make it less likely to survive, IMO; monarchies have survived BECAUSE they've changed and evolved with the times.

To me there's a big difference between the inherent unfairness of favoring the eldest child and favoring the eldest son. In the first case the privileges and responsibilities associated with being the heir arise by pure luck - the eldest child may not be the smartest or the best looking or the nicest of the bunch but by chance he or she showed up first. Importantly, IMO, having the eldest as heir regardless of gender says nothing about the relative desirability or superiority of different kinds of children, (and therefore different kinds of people).

A system of inheritance that favors the eldest son is different - over the years I've been following royalty I've seen people fall over themselves trying to dress it up in different, more palatable ways but there's no getting around the fact that when a the eldest child is a girl in this situation she's seen as inferior to a potential future brother, (or cousin, as turned out to be the case in Japan). She may be allowed to inherit the throne in some countries, but only if something better doesn't come along after her in the form of a baby boy. It's not surprising that things turned out this way, I don't think; all of these monarchies came to power in times in which it was taken for granted that women were immeasurably inferior to men, often more at the level of animals than fully fledged humans. But again, times change.
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  #170  
Old 09-05-2011, 10:20 PM
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Beautifully expressed, Camelot23ca, and exactly how I feel about the situation. Thank you!
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  #171  
Old 09-06-2011, 08:09 PM
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Once again monarchies in general are discriminatory and unfair to the masses; Masako is a smart person and she is Japanese. She at least had some sense of how hard this life would be. Her mother in law had a break down, so she at least knew a little bit of the hardships she would face. The Empress, unlike her daughter in law, got herself together; Masako is the one still causing problems after being married for 15yrs or so.
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  #172  
Old 09-06-2011, 08:31 PM
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The lack of compassion here towards Masako is very telling.

In my opinion, if Masako married Narihuto in good faith and believed that she make a difference (even if it was only a slight difference), and that he would protect her from the "grey men" only to find out that he couldn't. You hear of women who struggle every day to get pregnant, the pressure they put on themselves and their body and the hurt that they experience when it doesn't happen, or if it does happen only to end in a miscarriage or something similar. Add to that the pressure of delivering a "boy" because girls aren't good enough and one can only imagine some of the pressure that Masako felt.

And please spare me the Masako is Japanese, she should know the deal talk. Witnessing something on the outside, knowing people because your family is familiar with them is not the same as being a part of it. Just like Kate and Diana, people who have been on the fringes of the BRF for years. Once you are in the cool group you are privy to a whole lot of things that you weren't as a girlfriend or a courtier.

Okay, so she doesn't have a boy, she can't conform to the traditional role of Crown Princess (or rather she feels stifled), her sister in law gives birth to the "right baby" (who really is the cutest thing) and you would think THINK that the powers that be would just let her be.

But they don't.

Instead every couple of months we hear rumours of the CP couple not visiting the emperor, or not being supportive, or wanting to go on vacation or a royal wedding but not well enough to duties, all kinds of crazy stuff. And than, the kicker.....when its reported that Aiko is being bullied and they way its spun....its her fault. That she couldn't handle it the pressure, like her mother, as if they (or someone) is trying to discredit a child. If she can't handle the pressures of school, surely she can't handle being Empress.

So I am sorry --- that bit right there told me all I need to know about the powers and the issues that Maskao faces. Any system, powers that be that work to discredit a child....well, that makes you wonder if those who wonder if Maskao is really sick, if its all in her mind, why she can't just take a pill and get over it, why she doesn't remove herself so Naruhito can remarry and have a son (I mean how Henry VIII is that?!), and why she doesn't realize that SHE is the problem not everyone else.

Well, that just makes me think that isn't just her. She might be a part of the problem but she is not the problem as a whole.

Because once you try to discredit a child in my eyes, it means you will do anything. Anything to get your way.
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  #173  
Old 09-06-2011, 08:48 PM
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I would feel sympathy for a person for the first few years. After 10yrs you need to get your crap together or get the heck out of the way. Masako is like an anchor pulling the entire family down! You think Masako or Diana or the only one's who have suffered at the hands of the powers that run their royal families? Prince Philip was treated worse than Diana when he married Elizabeth but he learned to deal with it and move on and found a defining role for himself that gave him some semblance of happiness. And I'm not even going to debate Diana and Fergie who never should have been allowed in in the first place.
The reason I mention that Masako is Japanese, is because she is not from the west and indoctrinated with western ideals that are not embraced in Japan. If Diana had delivered two girls instead of two boys then nothing drastic would have happened, the English would start looking forward to Elizabeth III. But Japan, along with many other Asian countries do not buy into this idea of females being allowed to rule. What I am seeing on this board is a lot of Westerners getting upset that an Eastern country doesn't think like we do. Masako had a hard time getting pregnant, and when she did get pregnant it was a girl and not a boy which the country wanted. OK FINE! It's done now! A boy was born to her sister in law and he will be Naruhito's heir. What is done is done, and Masako needs to learn to deal with it and move on from whatever the he11 is causing her to have a freakin adjustment disorder after 10 freakin years! As has been stated before, her mother in law went through the same thing, but she somehow dealt with her issues and went back to continuing her role.
As for Aiko (I think I spelled that right) I have heard from some people that she wasn't being bullied at all, she was just unused to the roughness of school with unsheltered children some of whom were boys. Then I have also heard she was indeed being bullied, which is of course wrong and disgusting, but should in no way prompt a mother to sit in her class for months on end!
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  #174  
Old 09-06-2011, 09:30 PM
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Thank you, Zonk. That was all very well said. Your points, in conjunction with the points made about the unfairness of the male dominated system make it clear that this is a broken and unfair system. I feel for Masako.
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  #175  
Old 09-06-2011, 09:36 PM
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As for Aiko (I think I spelled that right) I have heard from some people that she wasn't being bullied at all, she was just unused to the roughness of school with unsheltered children some of whom were boys. Then I have also heard she was indeed being bullied, which is of course wrong and disgusting, but should in no way prompt a mother to sit in her class for months on end!
Again.....has it been confirmed that Masako has been sitting in Aiko's class for months on end? Another example of bad press suggesting that Aiko can't handle it, or Masako is too over protective, etc.
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Old 09-07-2011, 01:22 AM
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... If you think equality is a western ideal, you're wrong. Every step in that direction has been fought for because someone recognized that a system was fundamentally unjust. You've read all the arguments for why this is fundamentally unjust. They're logical.

Do you disagree? Do you think Masako has been treated fairly?
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  #177  
Old 09-07-2011, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
The lack of compassion here towards Masako is very telling...
I totally agree.
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I would feel sympathy for a person for the first few years. After 10yrs you need to get your crap together or get the heck out of the way.
Easily said... That's not how it works in the Japanese Imperial Family.
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Masako is like an anchor pulling the entire family down!
Talk about dramatising things...
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You think Masako or Diana or the only one's who have suffered at the hands of the powers that run their royal families? Prince Philip was treated worse than Diana when he married Elizabeth but he learned to deal with it and move on and found a defining role for himself that gave him some semblance of happiness. And I'm not even going to debate Diana and Fergie who never should have been allowed in in the first place.
Comparing Japan and Britain is pointless, like I said before.
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The reason I mention that Masako is Japanese, is because she is not from the west and indoctrinated with western ideals that are not embraced in Japan.
She has lived in the United States and studied there for quite some time, so I assume she is or was not as "immune" to western ideals.

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If Diana had delivered two girls instead of two boys then nothing drastic would have happened, the English would start looking forward to Elizabeth III. But Japan, along with many other Asian countries do not buy into this idea of females being allowed to rule. What I am seeing on this board is a lot of Westerners getting upset that an Eastern country doesn't think like we do.
No debating Diana here?

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Masako had a hard time getting pregnant, and when she did get pregnant it was a girl and not a boy which the country wanted. OK FINE! It's done now! A boy was born to her sister in law and he will be Naruhito's heir. What is done is done, and Masako needs to learn to deal with it and move on from whatever the he11 is causing her to have a freakin adjustment disorder after 10 freakin years!
You sound like you are demanding her to move on, that is very arrogant in my eyes. You are not privy to what is going on and I would assume it's not like you are bothered by what her problems are.

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As has been stated before, her mother in law went through the same thing, but she somehow dealt with her issues and went back to continuing her role.
Yes, and Masako should deal with it in the same way her mother-in-law has... Not every person is the same.

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As for Aiko (I think I spelled that right) I have heard from some people that she wasn't being bullied at all, she was just unused to the roughness of school with unsheltered children some of whom were boys. Then I have also heard she was indeed being bullied, which is of course wrong and disgusting, but should in no way prompt a mother to sit in her class for months on end!
I find your tone arrogant, comes across as if you would like to scream to her "get the heck over whatever you have and stop being such a whiner."

Sometimes a situation is so severe that one can't just get over it and when help is not offered or at least not in the way it is needed, it can take years.

I really feel that some people take this way too easy - the way some thing are discussed here is typical for Western thoughts and ideals.
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  #178  
Old 09-07-2011, 11:38 PM
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You can think I sound arrogant all you want, Masako is said to be suffering from depression, and I have suffered from it as well and have known people who have suffered from worse; as I've stated numerous times there comes a time when sympathy just runs out. It seems that all anyone wants to do here is blame the IHA and nothing else. It's everyone else's fault except Masako's. Again blaming everyone around her for the first few months or years is suffice; but after 10yrs of complaining about the same problem which is continuously preventing her from doing her royal duties it gets tedious and the sympathy starts to wane. The reports about Aiko having her mother sit in the classroom with her are questioned; but the IHA being the blame for Masako's continuous nonstop mental problems are automatically true? I don't think so. And I find it ironic that you accuse me of implementing my western ideals into the situation, yet the same people who bash Japan, the Imperial Family, and the IHA for their "backwards male dominated society" aren't forcing their western ideals onto another society? Demanding Japan and the Imperial Family do what they want and what is perceived to be best for Masako is rather arrogant imo.
It is always one excuse after another:
She's a commoner
She isn't being supported
She's depressed
She had a miscarriage
She had a daughter and not a son
The big bad IHA is bullying her
Kiko is more popular than her
The roses didn't bloom
The sun didn't shine the right way
The moon is too full
There is always going to be another excuse for her
If after 10yrs you are still unable to do your job, the problem ends up being you instead of everyone around you.
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  #179  
Old 09-08-2011, 12:51 AM
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... You still sound like you're refusing to even consider that she's dealing with problems that are too difficult to just get over.

Or that mental illness is complex and experienced differently by every individual. Some recover, some cope, some don't.
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:07 AM
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You can think I sound arrogant all you want, Masako is said to be suffering from depression, and I have suffered from it as well and have known people who have suffered from worse; as I've stated numerous times there comes a time when sympathy just runs out.
I must agree; I believe Masako's situation generated plenty of sympathy at first (especially around the time of her miscarriage). But after a while, people begin to question why she is seemingly able to enjoy herself on vacation, eating in restaurants, shopping- yet cannot perform royal duties. Sympathy evaporates and impatience sets in. It's human nature, imo.
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