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  #141  
Old 08-31-2011, 07:25 PM
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Not to be a "b" but if she can't get over it, then perhaps she should step aside.
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  #142  
Old 08-31-2011, 07:44 PM
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Step aside. Hmmm. That would mean divorce and most likely losing her daughter. No woman or man should be asked to do that.


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Not to be a "b" but if she can't get over it, then perhaps she should step aside.
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  #143  
Old 08-31-2011, 09:59 PM
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My gut reaction to this whole situation has always been: 'I don't understand why the Emperor isn't more public and forceful in support of his son and Masako'.
But perhaps the Emperor doesn't support them?
Perhaps he thinks they should - as the saying goes- fish or cut bait?

If the Emperor disapproves of his son's behavior, would he come right out and say so? I think not!

But lately there have been rumors as to how the Crown Prince and his family fail to visit the Emperor and Empress; most of the Emperor's time is spent in the company of his younger son and family.

The Emperor has hinted very strongly that he would like Naruhito to visit; the Emperor has not been in the best of health lately, and the CP should consider that. Instead, there is a noticeable rift in the family; sad, considering the Emperor's failing health.
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  #144  
Old 09-02-2011, 03:52 AM
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Not to be a "b" but if she can't get over it, then perhaps she should step aside.
I think you're right. She's just causing a pointless rift in the Imperial Family and if she's not going ot get it together, it would be kinder for her to be set aside. A lot of couples split when the parent becomes incapable of being a healthy part of the family and frankly there's no point to Naruhito being isolated from his father and mother because of it.

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But perhaps the Emperor doesn't support them? Perhaps he thinks they should - as the saying goes- fish or cut bait?
It's not the Emperor's job to hold Masako's hand and get her through problems that should have been resolved a long time ago. He's an old man and he isn't a therapist or a doctor or a priest (Shinto or otherwise). At some point she has to get it together or go find another job. PRincess Diana had huge problems and she was only nineteen; she managed and she also did remarkably well. Diana only ended up leaving when things got to be too much and anyone would have cracked up. Masako was a fully grown woman and had the ability to really get down to business and she hasn't really had to do too many duties and tours while Diana did endless ones even after divorce.
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  #145  
Old 09-02-2011, 06:33 AM
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But perhaps the Emperor doesn't support them?
Perhaps he thinks they should - as the saying goes- fish or cut bait?

If the Emperor disapproves of his son's behavior, would he come right out and say so? I think not!

But lately there have been rumors as to how the Crown Prince and his family fail to visit the Emperor and Empress; most of the Emperor's time is spent in the company of his younger son and family.

The Emperor has hinted very strongly that he would like Naruhito to visit; the Emperor has not been in the best of health lately, and the CP should consider that. Instead, there is a noticeable rift in the family; sad, considering the Emperor's failing health.
Wasn't that bit of information that the Crown Prince and his family do not visit the Emperor and the Empress disproved a couple of pages back in this very thread? That this so called rift was just another example of Masako, Naruihito bashing that the IHA is doing to the family publicly?
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  #146  
Old 09-04-2011, 10:02 AM
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I think you're right. She's just causing a pointless rift in the Imperial Family and if she's not going ot get it together, it would be kinder for her to be set aside. A lot of couples split when the parent becomes incapable of being a healthy part of the family and frankly there's no point to Naruhito being isolated from his father and mother because of it.



It's not the Emperor's job to hold Masako's hand and get her through problems that should have been resolved a long time ago. He's an old man and he isn't a therapist or a doctor or a priest (Shinto or otherwise). At some point she has to get it together or go find another job. PRincess Diana had huge problems and she was only nineteen; she managed and she also did remarkably well. Diana only ended up leaving when things got to be too much and anyone would have cracked up. Masako was a fully grown woman and had the ability to really get down to business and she hasn't really had to do too many duties and tours while Diana did endless ones even after divorce.
So it seems that you put the blame solely on Masako, that's quite easy. Not every person adjusts as easily to a very different position than what one was used to.
Second, you seem to say that "when you don't like it, get out". That is the thing with the Japanese Imperial Family - it's not a job, it's a life task. I once read that when Masako and Naruhito married, she received a sword. That was symbolic for the only solution when her then-new life with him would not be happy: end her life.

And I conclude with saying that comparing the Japanese Imperial Family and the British Royal Family is pointless - the first is much more severe.
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  #147  
Old 09-04-2011, 03:01 PM
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I think you're right. She's just causing a pointless rift in the Imperial Family and if she's not going ot get it together, it would be kinder for her to be set aside. A lot of couples split when the parent becomes incapable of being a healthy part of the family and frankly there's no point to Naruhito being isolated from his father and mother because of it.

It's not the Emperor's job to hold Masako's hand and get her through problems that should have been resolved a long time ago. He's an old man and he isn't a therapist or a doctor or a priest (Shinto or otherwise). At some point she has to get it together or go find another job. PRincess Diana had huge problems and she was only nineteen; she managed and she also did remarkably well. Diana only ended up leaving when things got to be too much and anyone would have cracked up. Masako was a fully grown woman and had the ability to really get down to business and she hasn't really had to do too many duties and tours while Diana did endless ones even after divorce.

I am no expert regarding the late Princess of Wales but it seems to me – in between all the problems she had to deal with – that she derived a considerable amount of comfort from her charities insofar as she knew that she was being of use and that she was actually helping people who badly needed help.

This, however, is being denied to Princess Masako: meaningful work. That was what her husband meant when he complained that his wife´s career and personality had been negated. This is also why a group of doctors suggested in 2006 that arrangements be made for Masako to engage in public duties where she could take advantage of the expertise and experiences she accumulated before her marriage.

During long times of her life as crown princess, Masako´s problem was not that she had too much work, but too little. She was used to a huge workload. At highschool she was nicknamed „Hardworker Masako“, among her collegues of the diplomatic service she was called: “the woman who does not need any sleep”…. What she was not used to was to be obliged to sit at home and do nothing.
What she was not used to was to be under an immense pressure to accomplish something that was beyond her control: „
According to well-placed palace insiders, every month since her marriage the princess has been summoned to the imperial presence. Using the politest and most formal of language, the emperor enquires as to whether she has had a period that month. Each time she has had to lower her head in shame and confess that, sadly, she has failed yet again to conceive a child. They also point out that she has effectively been grounded until she does her duty and produces an heir.“
What the princess was not used to was to be surrounded by people who blame her for her abilities and competence. You may have heard the story of how she got herself into trouble at an official dinner: She was seated between then-presidents Bill Clinton and Boris Yeltsin and chatted in fluent English and Russian with both. Far from being positively impressed, a royal watcher sourly commented, "The Imperial Family are not ambassadors. She doesn't need to be able to speak English, she has interpreters for that. Her job is to smile."

I agree with Skippy in that there are remarkable differences between the Japanese Imperial Family and the British Royal Family. While a divorce is probably not absolutely impossible in the Imperial Family (there is one precedent, in the 19th century, if I remember right), the consequences would be much more serious than they were for Diana or for Princess Alexandra of Denmark, for example. Of course, nobody can be exactly sure in advance of what would happen, but neither can Princess Masako herself. It is to be supposed that, if she went for a divorce, she would forever be separated from her husband - who loves her dearly and has repeatedly stood up for her, never minding that he was getting himself into big trouble by supporting his wife. There is also a high probability that, for many years, she would not be given any opportunity to see her daughter. In taking such a decision, she would not only have to consider her own feelings, but also those of her family. Naruhito has repeatedly said that his wife, even in her illness, supports him in many ways invisible to the public and that her very presence is sufficient to cheer him up. If he were forced to divorce his wife, I am sure he would be a broken man (and I doubt that he could ever forgive his parents). As for Aiko, how could the crown princess leave her daughter alone in an environment that has induced her mother´s depression? It is true that Aiko has a loving father, but he has to attend to his duties and would not always be present to guide and protect his daughter.
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  #148  
Old 09-04-2011, 03:48 PM
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I followed this thread for a while and I really don´t understand all the critisizm and hate for Princess Masako.I guess you are absolutely right with the statements above (ChiaraC).The princess is so intelligent,educated and eager to learn but she is not allowed to use her knowledge and experience-what a waste!Everybody expects her just to be smiling,wear appropriate clothes and produce a male heir,I am not surprised that she is frustrated and unhappy...Years ago I met a man who wanted me to stay at home all day long and I didn´t have anything to do (housework was done by others) and it was driving me so mad that I couldn´t stay for more than a week and I was not university-educated or as ambitious and successful as Masako before her marriage...
Here is a collection of pictures from her state visits and other royal duties:
Their Imperial Highnesses Crown Prince Naruhito and Crown Princess Masako - The Imperial Household Agency
You can see that she is always dressing moderate and elegant,she is diligent and disciplined,trying to do her best IMO.
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  #149  
Old 09-04-2011, 08:49 PM
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So it seems that you put the blame solely on Masako, that's quite easy. Not every person adjusts as easily to a very different position than what one was used to.
Second, you seem to say that "when you don't like it, get out". That is the thing with the Japanese Imperial Family - it's not a job, it's a life task. I once read that when Masako and Naruhito married, she received a sword. That was symbolic for the only solution when her then-new life with him would not be happy: end her life.

And I conclude with saying that comparing the Japanese Imperial Family and the British Royal Family is pointless - the first is much more severe.
Yes, it seems to me Masako is truly good and stuck. It's easy for an outsider to say she should snap out of it or take action to improve things for herself, but it's hard to improve anything when one doesn't have the ability to change the circumstances that are causing the problem in the first place! She could get a divorce but that could very well mean she'd have to leave her daughter behind in a very difficult situation - what mother is going to do that? The Crown Prince could abdicate and the family could leave Japan, but even leaving aside the psychological trauma that would cause him, what then? My understanding is the family has very little private money and I doubt the IHO would be overly generous in seeing them off. She can't stick up for herself and say "this is the way things are going to be now" because, again, she doesn't control the purse strings or the agenda and there's nothing in her upbringing or background that would have prepared her to take such a step.
I think she's done one of the only things she could do - withdraw as much as possible into her private family life. The "good" news is that, since Masako gave birth to the inferior type of child -a girl - who will be summarily booted out of the royal family on marrying, she may get to see her daughter live a productive and happy life.
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  #150  
Old 09-05-2011, 12:57 AM
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This is unbelievably humiliating for Masako; and, I would suppose, embarrassing for both the Crown Princess and the Emperor.


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[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]According to well-placed palace insiders, every month since her marriage the princess has been summoned to the imperial presence. Using the politest and most formal of language, the emperor enquires as to whether she has had a period that month. Each time she has had to lower her head in shame and confess that, sadly, she has failed yet again to conceive a child. They also point out that she has effectively been grounded until she does her duty and produces an heir.“
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  #151  
Old 09-05-2011, 05:07 AM
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This is unbelievably humiliating for Masako; and, I would suppose, embarrassing for both the Crown Princess and the Emperor.
ChiaraC is quoting the book of Ben Hill 'Prisoner of Chrysanthemum Throne' which was prooved to be not reliable source, since Ben Hill never was acquainted with any member of palace stuff, or the Owada family, of friends of the Crown Princess Masako. Ben Hill was not present on any press conference of the Crown Princess, never met her in real life. He used only rumors from English language press (since he does not speak Japanese).
Ben Hill was sued in court for defamation, lost his case and had to appologize in written form. Japanese bookstores does not want to distribute his 'disgusting book'.
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  #152  
Old 09-05-2011, 09:38 AM
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According to well-placed palace insiders, every month since her marriage the princess has been summoned to the imperial presence. Using the politest and most formal of language, the emperor enquires as to whether she has had a period that month. Each time she has had to lower her head in shame and confess that, sadly, she has failed yet again to conceive a child. They also point out that she has effectively been grounded until she does her duty and produces an heir.“


This story is an urban myth!!!! Even Ben Hlls (whose book is full of errors) wrote that there was no evidence of anything like this ever happening. The Emperor is not the type to be summoning anyone to the palace much less Masako!

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What the princess was not used to was to be surrounded by people who blame her for her abilities and competence. You may have heard the story of how she got herself into trouble at an official dinner: She was seated between then-presidents Bill Clinton and Boris Yeltsin and chatted in fluent English and Russian with both. Far from being positively impressed, a royal watcher sourly commented, "The Imperial Family are not ambassadors. She doesn't need to be able to speak English, she has interpreters for that. Her job is to smile."


More incorrect information! Masako was never criticised by any member of the Imperial Household in regards to her being able to speak various languages. The person who actually made this statement was a Japanese journalist a very conservative one. He not only made the comment but wrote it as well.

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I agree with Skippy in that there are remarkable differences between the Japanese Imperial Family and the British Royal Family. While a divorce is probably not absolutely impossible in the Imperial Family (there is one precedent, in the 19th century, if I remember right), the consequences would be much more serious than they were for Diana or for Princess Alexandra of Denmark, for example. Of course, nobody can be exactly sure in advance of what would happen, but neither can Princess Masako herself. It is to be supposed that, if she went for a divorce, she would forever be separated from her husband - who loves her dearly and has repeatedly stood up for her, never minding that he was getting himself into big trouble by supporting his wife. There is also a high probability that, for many years, she would not be given any opportunity to see her daughter. In taking such a decision, she would not only have to consider her own feelings, but also those of her family. Naruhito has repeatedly said that his wife, even in her illness, supports him in many ways invisible to the public and that her very presence is sufficient to cheer him up. If he were forced to divorce his wife, I am sure he would be a broken man (and I doubt that he could ever forgive his parents). As for Aiko, how could the crown princess leave her daughter alone in an environment that has induced her mother´s depression? .
Some background on Japanese life, Japan does not have no fault divorce or shared custody of children of divorced parents. In cases where people divorce (ordinary people not Imperial family members! So not just if Masako divorced Naruhito) the person who was deemed at fault looses custody and if a woman receives no maintenance or alimony from her former husband. (that's for anyone!) There is no shared custody, the non custodial parent is given access but that can be as little as 2 photographs a year of your child or children! That's the reality in Japan so it's not just a case of 'poor Masako never seeing her child or not seeing much of her' It's the reality for many Japanese parents who don't have custody of their children.

I also get irritiated by this whole 'bad IHA' and conspiracy theories. The IHA is made up of humans they are not immortal, the courtiers who gave Michiko a hard time in the early 1960s are not still working, most would be dead! Japan also has mandatory retirement (up until 5 years ago it was at 60, it's now up to 65) so the courtiers do retire and are replaced. The former Chief Steward of the Imperial Household did make the statement in 2002 that Masako's overseas trips were stopped in the late 1990s in the hope that she would get pregnant. He also said that he wanted the Crown prince couple to have a 2nd child and the Akishinos to have a 3rd child. He retired a few years back. The head of the Naruhito household is a former diplomat who is a good friend of Masako's father.

This whole 'bad IHA' is ridiculous too, the IHA has over 1000 employees, anyone who works for the Imperial Household is IHA! That includes the gardeners, the farmers on the Imperial farm, the musicians in the Imperial orchestra, the nurses in the Imperial hospital etc, etc.

Masako was a hard worker, but then all Japanese students particularly those who want to attend the top universities are! It's not uncommon for Japanese high school students to have 4 hours sleep a night due to all the study they do. (Which is why some then fall asleep in class! ) She was still busy as a royal, just a different type of busy since most of it revolved around ceremonial duties. (Including learning how to write old style poems)

The Japanese royals and their staff are not secretive, there is just very little information that is generally accurate from non-Japanese sources. No interviews are given to non-Japanese media, the weekly Friday press briefing that the IHA press office gives is only to Japanese media. With so little information, non-Japanese (and here it's not just western but also Asian as well, lots of really tabaloid type information comes from the Chinese press, who are generally not favourable to the Japanese. Historical reasons.) media rely very strongly on vague bits of information which is then transmitted as facts.
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  #153  
Old 09-05-2011, 09:45 AM
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Naruhito seems a nice chap, so why can't he stand up for his wife ?
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  #154  
Old 09-05-2011, 11:04 AM
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It seems as if the more they try to keep their private life a secret the more ppl talk about it and tell rumours that sound as if they had watched too many Hollywood films...some stories about the Japanese Royal family are just so weird....they are not only royal but also human beings and make mistakes like us and everyone has to deal with problems of different natures sometimes but I don´t believe in any conspiracies or that anyone is trying to destroy the monarchy!In the West we just don´t fully understand the culture and traditions of Japan,even though we are reading many books or watch documentaries about certain aspects of Japanese living.
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  #155  
Old 09-05-2011, 01:27 PM
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Naruhito seems a nice chap, so why can't he stand up for his wife ?
Against who? His father who is also his Emperor? Is he supposed to just go off and then proceed to end up attacking his father? Or his mother? As it is, Asian culture repsects their elders, with the Emperor being all the more important than most parents?
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  #156  
Old 09-05-2011, 03:00 PM
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I'd be more keen so feel more sympathy for Masako if she still wasn't complaining about the same things for 10yrs. There have been hundreds of other women in Masako's position in and out of Japan who have learned to deal with it. But for a decade now there has been this adjustment disorder and problems with this particular person; after awhile it just gets tedious.
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  #157  
Old 09-05-2011, 03:58 PM
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She's still being treated like a second class citizen because of her gender and that of her daughter. She has the RIGHT to complain about that treatment and try to change it if she can.
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  #158  
Old 09-05-2011, 04:05 PM
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Nearly all royal families discriminate due to gender (otherwise some of us here would be titled and we're not). They discriminate as to birth order. They do lots of "discrimination" that other families do not (apparently, adopted kids do not inherit titles in most systems; whereas in most adoption situations outside royalty, adopted kids are treated - hopefully - just like all the other kids).

Marrying into a royal family is like signing a pre-nup that you forego the right to inherit or complain about certain things.

She may have the *right* to complain, but if complaining only gets her into a less desirable situation - why would any reasonable person do that? What if complaining accomplishes nothing? Why not simply practice acceptance?

Now, if she could possibly improve things for her daughter, that's different.

I do not know enough about the Japanese emperor's ability to change rules, but when her husband is Emperor, presumably if he so chooses, he can do something about the rules of succession. If that would cause a governmental crisis, though, he has to choose carefully what to do.

It's really disturbing to see urban legend and disinformation repeated on this thread, btw, and disrespectful to the Japanese Emperor.
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Old 09-05-2011, 04:10 PM
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He has been standing up for her to such a degree that some commentators have been complaining about his behaviour. Being Japanese Imperial Highness, his comments have been very guarded during interviews; but he has said that her abilities have been more or less stifled by the Imperial Court.

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Naruhito seems a nice chap, so why can't he stand up for his wife ?
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Old 09-05-2011, 04:10 PM
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Just because it's done doesn't mean it's the right thing to do- as more and more royal families have recognized by changing to equal primogeniture. All because people realized it wasn't right and changed it.

And can you imagine how difficult it would be to feel like you're inferior every day because of who you are and who your child is? It would be incredibly painful, and I think the effect on Masako's health and happiness is completely understandable.
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