Succession in Jordan at the time of King Hussein's Death: Why Was it Changed?

[papillon]

Shelley made what I thought was a good suggestion on another JRF thread, which was to discuss the underlying causes and influences of the succession change in Jordan at the time of KH's death.

What are the facts and theories? Anyone?

[madonna23]

While I am sure that some input came from JRF members and KH himself, I think the United States had an extraordinary influence on the succession. Apparently, US officials pressured Hussein into changing the succession to Abdullah as Prince Hassan was seen as too anti-Israel and anti-US. Having Abdullah as King, however, was beneficient to the US because they obviously knew of his Western leanings.

Originally posted by madonna23@Jul 28th, 2004 - 1:11 pm
While I am sure that some input came from JRF members and KH himself, I think the United States had an extraordinary influence on the succession. Apparently, US officials pressured Hussein into changing the succession to Abdullah as Prince Hassan was seen as too anti-Israel and anti-US. Having Abdullah as King, however, was beneficient to the US because they obviously knew of his Western leanings.

Please cite your sources about alleged US influence on the succession in Jordan.

[madonna23]

There are several articles on the INternet - just search on google...

hear's one I found

http://mondediplo.com/1999/03/15jordan

Also - I made a mistake in my post - Hassan was disliked because of his animosity towards jordanians of palestinian origin (and also I've read for his animosity towards western influence)...sorry for the mistake!

[Bubbette]

http://www.lestribunesroyales.com/forums/i...?showtopic=6420 DIscussed here and at the Hassan thread.

[shelley]

Originally posted by madonna23@Jul 29th, 2004 - 12:33 pm

Also - I made a mistake in my post - Hassan was disliked because of his animosity towards jordanians of palestinian origin (and also I've read for his animosity towards western influence)...sorry for the mistake!

The article by David Wumser that you quote actually makes it very clear that it was not the Palestinian people that P. Hassan was not sympathetic to ( he in fact always made apoint of taking visiting dignatories such as James Wolfensohn, the Head of the World Bank to see the misery in which the Palestinians in the camps were living in, and wrote books and papers about their plight ) but like many people in authority in the 1970's, he drew a very clear line between the anarchists and the ordinary refugee in a camp. The slogan in 1970 was 'Amman - the Hanoi of the Arab World' and what few people seem to realise is that there were actually Palestinian units of the Jordanian Army who fought against the unruly elements who included not only Palestinians, but Japanese Red Army, Baader Meinhof and IRA, determined to overthrow the regine and install a quasi communist or certainly very hard line left wing regime instead in the Jordan. P. Hassan always pushed for Palestinians to be given full citizenship in Jordan but this was rejected by various groups whom it suited better to keep them as a disenfranchised entity. Egarding the second point, about P. Hassan having an animosity towards western inlfuence, it depends what is meant by 'western influence'. In himself he is one of the most cultured, well read, mutli faceted individuals, totally at home in the best of western culture, speaking several languages. Certainly the only man in the JRF and perhaps in the Arab world who is equally at home in a Bedouin tent or in the most erudite of European universities or salons. However, he believes that a relationship with 'the West' should be that of friends not masters. He would never have sold his birthright 'for a mess of pottage' or what the equivalant is in today's materialistic world. And the bit about being against Saddam Hussein is very true. He had little use for the man, and is on record for having told him so at a time when Saddam was actually being chatted up by the Americans and others !

[papillon]

Once again, Shelley, you educate us.

Originally posted by madonna23@Jul 29th, 2004 - 11:33 am
There are several articles on the INternet - just search on google...

hear's one I found

http://mondediplo.com/1999/03/15jordan

Also - I made a mistake in my post - Hassan was disliked because of his animosity towards jordanians of palestinian origin (and also I've read for his animosity towards western influence)...sorry for the mistake!

as a professional librarian, I do not "search" on Google ... I research. Google is a search engine - not an index, and not a primary source.

I would never use Google to find articles ... one uses online newspapers databases for example, most of which are not accessible to the general public (and are costly)

and just because it says something - what is the veracity of the author, ie

Shelley, the articles are OP-eds - editorials (opposite the editorials) -- not straightforward news articles ... huge difference. These are opinions. Not news stories.

[madonna23]

I would never use Google to find articles ... one uses online newspapers databases for example, most of which are not accessible to the general public (and are costly)

i didn't say i first heard the news on google; i just said you can go there to find archives because you won't find this in the news anymore...

and yes, the US influence thing is speculation but then, isn't this whole forum speculation...speculation backed up by a few opinions?? we will never know what went on in KH head when he made the decision to change succession.

[silver charm]

Originally posted by Marlene+Jul 29th, 2004 - 4:51 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Marlene @ Jul 29th, 2004 - 4:51 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-madonna23@Jul 29th, 2004 - 11:33 am
There are several articles on the INternet - just search on google...

hear's one I found

http://mondediplo.com/1999/03/15jordan

Also - I made a mistake in my post - Hassan was disliked because of his animosity towards jordanians of palestinian origin (and also I've read for his animosity towards western influence)...sorry for the mistake!

as a professional librarian, I do not "search" on Google ... I research. Google is a search engine - not an index, and not a primary source.

I would never use Google to find articles ... one uses online newspapers databases for example, most of which are not accessible to the general public (and are costly)

and just because it says something - what is the veracity of the author, ie [/b][/quote]
marlene:

there is nothing wrong with asking Professor Google a question-as long as you check the credentials of the response. and regarding your beloved newspaper databases-many of them are open to the Google spiders so their content can be searched and displayed. essentially, if there is a part of the web that can not be indexed electronically and displayed via well known search engines then the data might as be written in hyroglyphics on papyrus.

i respect what you say about knowing your sources but there are million ways of searching all the written pages on this planet. really, does anyone honestly think a card catalog is more effecient than a well run database?

[pepep]

Why Was It Changed? Who Influenced It?

Read King Abdullah - Antichrist and you will find the answer.

[QueenB]

What really happened during the time when sucession was changed - only those involved know.. but some of the answers lie in the public letter KH wrote to his brother as to why he changed the line of succession.. although - where could a copy of that letter be found? Barbara Walters only mentioned the part about KH telling Jordanians that she is one of their own..
There are many stories of behind the scenes 'power plays'..
One story had Hassan, then CP and acting regent, firing several of King Hussein's 'people of confidence.' Another was Princess Sarvath redecorating the then ailing king's offices.. those stories got back to the king and he 'realized' he had to change the line of succession.. at that point it was even said that the King saw Hassan's actions as betrayal.. and that Hassan gave KH his gun and said something along the lines of 'if you think I have betrayed you, use it.' He was reportedly very hurt and surprised the king would think he would betray him.

At King Hussein's hospital bed - it is said that QN and Princess Muna pressured KH to name one of their eldest sons CP.. also that it was KA who 'reported' back to KH of what was happening in Jordan..

Hassan had been CP for years and years - and even with his 'tense' relationship with QN and his criticism of her attempting to secure her own son's position within the family - and in all those years, KH never changed the line of succession, even with all the assassination attempts on his own life.
It was always known, KH wanted Hassan to name first Ali - then as time went on, Hamzah, CP and not his own son Rashid. Sarvath - who appears to be similar to Rania in behavior and attitude - was apparently not well liked and her 'issues' with Noor ran deep - and Sarvath wanted Rashid to be King, complaining that Noor used Hamzah to upstage Hassan in KH's eyes.

I think gossip and taking advantage of the King's condition played an important role in all the 'drama'.. Abdullah says he was surprised by being named CP.. I don't buy that.. I think he did everything he could to secure the CP title. I would not be surprised if Rania - during her visits, also gave her take on what was 'going on' in the kings absence.

I also think QN played a huge role. Let's face it. Like her or not - her role and her existence within Jordan was at stake. Hassan hated her and there was no way she was going to be able to roam around and exert influence.. And once KH was gone -Hassan could name anyone CP - afterall - one of the tensions was that he refused to give KH his word that either Ali or Hamzah would ever be named CP.. Noor was smart enough to know what that meant for her.
I think she tried to convince KH why Hamzah should be CP.. in one article that did refer to the US 'influence' in succession - the Pres Clinton met with KH to discuss KH's plan to name Hamzah CP. Clinton was said to have said to Hussein that whomever he chose would have the support of the US government. After Clinton emerged from the meeting, it is said that KH changed his mind and soon Abdullah was named CP.

In the end - gossip, the king's own doubt, people making their own opinions known continuously and the king's own medicated state led to change in succession.

[QueenB]

"Barbara Walters only mentioned the part about KH telling Jordanians that she is one of their own.." - I meant Queen Noor during her interview with 20/20 years ago.

[shelley]

Originally posted by QueenB@Jul 29th, 2004 - 10:50 pm

It was always known, KH wanted Hassan to name first Ali - then as time went on, Hamzah, CP and not his own son Rashid.

Sarvath - who appears to be similar to Rania in behavior and attitude - was apparently not well liked and her 'issues' with Noor

There are two points here:

Time and again everyone seems to totally ignore the strictures of the Jordanian Consitution which clearly states that a king can only be succeeded by his son or his brother. Nominating a nephew would have meant opening the Pandora's box of consitutional reform which may not have been a wise move in the existing political climate.

In what way do you find Sarvath and Rania similar ? There is absolutely no similarity, in their backgrounds, their life styles, and their interests. Before becoming queen Rania exhibited absolutely no interest in anything to do with the projects she now champions. Sarvath has always worked for what she believes in - education and the improvement in the lot of women and the disadvantaged, especially the mentally handicapped.

Regarding the issues with Noor - frankly Noor had a lot of issues with all the women and most of the men of the JRF.

[shelley]

Originally posted by Marlene@Jul 29th, 2004 - 4:52 pm
Shelley, the articles are OP-eds - editorials (opposite the editorials) -- not straightforward news articles ... huge difference. These are opinions. Not news stories.

I quite agree - these are just op eds - but coming from a family with a background in government I know all too well, that one should also be careful about accepting a news report at face value. Unfortunately, it is all too easy to give a certain item of news a certain spin, if required, and there are few journalists about these days who are totally independent in their views and reporting.

[QueenB]

Originally posted by shelley+Jul 30th, 2004 - 2:10 am--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shelley @ Jul 30th, 2004 - 2:10 am)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-QueenB@Jul 29th, 2004 - 10:50 pm

It was always known, KH wanted Hassan to name first Ali - then as time went on, Hamzah, CP and not his own son Rashid.

Sarvath - who appears to be similar to Rania in behavior and attitude - was apparently not well liked and her 'issues' with Noor

There are two points here:

Time and again everyone seems to totally ignore the strictures of the Jordanian Consitution which clearly states that a king can only be succeeded by his son or his brother. Nominating a nephew would have meant opening the Pandora's box of consitutional reform which may not have been a wise move in the existing political climate.

In what way do you find Sarvath and Rania similar ? There is absolutely no similarity, in their backgrounds, their life styles, and their interests. Before becoming queen Rania exhibited absolutely no interest in anything to do with the projects she now champions. Sarvath has always worked for what she believes in - education and the improvement in the lot of women and the disadvantaged, especially the mentally handicapped.

Regarding the issues with Noor - frankly Noor had a lot of issues with all the women and most of the men of the JRF. [/b][/quote]
I am not ignoring the strictures of the Jordanian constitution. In several articles I have read in the past, they have stated that it was the king's hope to see - at first Ali then Hamzah succeed Hassan. That KH even wrote a letter to Hassan years before his death making that known to him.

Isn't Sarvath tastes considered lavish, much like Queen Rania? As far as Rania, before becoming Queen, not being involved in the causes she now champions - wasn't she actively involved in the Jordan River Foundation since it's inception?

As far as Queen Noor having problems with several members of the JRF, that certainly appears to be the case.

[shelley]

Originally posted by QueenB@Jul 30th, 2004 - 2:58 am
I am not ignoring the strictures of the Jordanian constitution. In several articles I have read in the past, they have stated that it was the king's hope to see - at first Ali then Hamzah succeed Hassan. That KH even wrote a letter to Hassan years before his death making that known to him.

Isn't Sarvath tastes considered lavish, much like Queen Rania? As far as Rania, before becoming Queen, not being involved in the causes she now champions - wasn't she actively involved in the Jordan River Foundation since it's inception?

As far as Queen Noor having problems with several members of the JRF, that certainly appears to be the case.

The King did indeed write such a letter P. Hassan at the time of his marriage to Q. Noor ( and before P. Rashid was born ) in which he indicted his preference of Ali over Abdullah and Feisal to succeed Hassan who at that time was without a male heir. P. Hassan is on record as answering the letter in a gracious manner and accepting the premise behind the suggestion of bypassing the two older sons which the king in his letter gave as being that their mother was not Muslim born. However, when P. Rashid was born, it changed the entire dynamics of the situation. Perhaps P. Hassan at thirty one and after three girls would have been wiser to stop having children - something his brother did not do until he was well into his fifties ! I still maintain that there should have been a clear understanding and discussion of the implications of making Hassan crown prince in 1965, when he was unmarried and eighteen years old, and some sort of constitutional provison made for him to be regent rather than king in the minority of the king's sons. Much heartache and distress would have been avoided all around.

Sarvath is perhaps least lavish of the women of the JRF. She has never gone in for couture clothing and fancy houses, and many of the more glitzy habits of some of the other members of the family. Although entitled to use the private plane as wife of the crown prince, she would always use the regular Royal Jordanian flights unless accompanying her husband. She never gave an interview about her private life to any newspaper or magazine, and generally no one in Jordan read very much about the meetings etc. she would chair almost everyday in connection with her various educational activities and the Red Crescent as she always prefered not to involve the press in her day to day life, and kept a very low profile. She would therefore be free to attend those meetigs in jeans and a T shirt as they were always private. ( He various orgaisiations have a a very friendly atmosphere in them, with all borad members being proper particpatory members who feel free to disagree with the princessa nd amongst themselves, without fear of repercussions, which is not always the case in institutions/organisations run by other members of the family ) Her domestic staff/secretaries/hairdresser etc are mainly all Jordanian, unlike the foreign chefs , butlers, dressers used by many other members of the family. Admittedly her car is a jaguar, but her present one is about fifteen years old, the car before, also a jaguar she had for seventeen years, and before that she had an old mercedes that was P. Hassan's second car when they got married. Her cars are always recognisable as she has always had a small silver cat figure on the bonnet where other people might have a horse or a dog emblem ! Unlike the other women of the family, she usually goes out without guards and if she does use a guard car it is a normal car following her, rather than use a big GMC as do most members of the family, including many of the women. P. Hassan and P. sarvath live in what is arguably the nicest house of any of the JRF members, in that it is one of the oldest houses in Amman, with a lot of old architectural charm, and a beautiful mature garden, but it is by far the smallest, least extravagent of any of the family members including the late king's children's homes. Clearly not decorated inside by any designer, inside it is a cross between that of a rather run down English country house and a university professor's house. No big receptions rooms, fancy furnishings etc - rather filled to the brim with Indian, Middle Eastern a nd European antique furniture, books, paintings, records and several cats and dogs. Some people who think that in fact P. Hassan should have had a grander home as crown prince complained about the fact that house has remained exactly the same since the prince and princess moved into it thirty five years ago, down to the same curtains and soft furnishings, except for getting fuller and fuller of books, records and paintings. ( K. Hussein, P. Mohammed, P. Basma even - one of the more sesible members of the family - have rebuilt , redeorated and expanded their homes several times over the past few decades) P. Hassan's married daughters live in the smallest and least ostentatious houses of any of their cousins ( and they were both married when their father was crown prince ). Their weddings were beatifully arranged but relatively low key, although admittedly with the glitzest guest lists prior to the wedding of P. Hamzah. P. Mohammed and P. Basma as siblings of K. Hussein, his late cousin P. Shakir, and many influential members of the Jordanian establishment etc all have much bigger houses than P. Hassan and the wives ( P. Firyal and co.) are decked out from head to toe in designer clothes. Undoubtedly the crown prince could have had the same if he and his wife had wanted it. Generally, their life style was extremely 'normal' with P. Sarvath taking her children to school every morning , in a track suit. Being seen in shops around town. And actually she is not unpopular with the rank and file Jordanian - admittedly there were some of the more glamoourous members of society who felt that she did not represent what they would want from their crown prince's wife. ( These are the same people who carp and snipe at Q. Noor and now Q. Rania's excesses so there is no pleasing some people). It is extraordinary that so much folk-lore should have grown up around a woman who in fact is the anthesis of everything she is accused of being. This is one of life's mysteries.

As for the Jordan River Foundation. It was called the Jordan River Designs and was started by Q. Noor, with help from USAID. At some point in 1998, when the late king fell ill, Q. Noor handed over its running then P. Rania. The organisation was in trouble as USAID had pulled out and it needed a new breath of life and she was too busy to give it her full attention.

[papillon]

Originally posted by shelley@Jul 30th, 2004 - 1:19 am
I quite agree - these are just op eds - but coming from a family with a background in government I know all too well, that one should also be careful about accepting a news report at face value. Unfortunately, it is all too easy to give a certain item of news a certain spin, if required, and there are few journalists about these days who are totally independent in their views and reporting.

You are so right about this, Shelley. Budgets in the broadcast and print media have been so scaled back that, often, reporters are not given the time and the funds they need to properly investigate their stories. If there happens to be a press release lying around related to a given story, it is all too tempting to extract portions of it and report them as facts. I work in marketing, so I can vouch how relatively easy it is to influence the media.

Last year around this time, my local newspaper (a major city metropolitan newspaper) published a story about me. The reporter didn't even call me for an interview or ring to fact check. I had no warning, just was reading the paper one day and came upon a story about me and my work. It contained major factual errors (about where I live, what I was doing, how long I'd been doing it). I've been taking in the news with a very jaundiced eye since then. It was a hard lesson, even though, fortunately, the nature of the story wasn't critical of me. But it gave me great empathy for public figures. Definitely don't believe everything you read, even in the so-called legitimate press.

[shelley]

Thank you, Papillon