The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > Royal House of Jordan

Join The Royal Forums Today
View Poll Results: Do You Think King Hussein Made the "Right" Succession Decision?
Yes 45 100.00%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #141  
Old 07-31-2004, 11:22 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally posted by QueenB@Jul 31st, 2004 - 6:10 am

What are Hassan and Sarvath's position in Jordan now? 

Phew, I finally found the thread I was looking for. The topic was locked, hence my difficulty. Here you have a detailed defence of P. Hassan and P.Sarvath by a Jordanian, Alia Musallam. The part I am referring to is on pg. 6, of 'Crown prince Hamzah and Princess Nour of Jordan News and Pictures Part 2, although there is quite a spirited discussion on pages before and after this too. of course she is only one opinion, but I don't think there are that many Jordanians who post, except for some called Laila wrote favourably about them too. There are also excerpts from the letter of dismissal.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 07-31-2004, 05:44 PM
papillon's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 329
Quote:
Originally posted by QueenB@Jul 31st, 2004 - 3:16 am
Whenever KA or QN give interviews and the drama behind the scenes is brought up, immediately Hassan is cited as overstepping his position and somehow disrespecting the authority of the late KH.
And, in addition, QN ALWAYS flatly denies having advocated for her son, which, frankly, I don't find credible. It just doesn't ring true for me, given her ambition and knowing human nature.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 07-31-2004, 05:51 PM
papillon's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 329
Quote:
Originally posted by shelley@Jul 31st, 2004 - 8:59 am
Frankly, I think Abdullah only came into the picture by default, as it was the only way that Hamzah could be named crown prince with the consitution ( brother or son, not nephew ).
Aaahhhh. . .finally a theory that makes some sense. I could never understand why KA was, in KH's eyes (at least at the end), a better succession choice than C. P. Hassan. KA was young-ish, is not highly educated, had not been groomed for the job, was an unknown to many people outside Jordan. To me, it just seems he is no match. But if KH wanted to ensure the P. Hamzah was made C. P., well, that is insightful. I still think it was a bad decision on KH's part, but at least now I can follow his line of thought.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 07-31-2004, 05:55 PM
papillon's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 329
Quote:
Originally posted by shelley@Jul 31st, 2004 - 8:59 am
P.  Sarvath is going on with her educational projects.  As she never started them with any help from the State, they are hers and hers alone, and there was no that they could be easily diverted.
Kudos to her, especially for funding them independently of the State.

Private message to QR: I hope you are reading this and take a page.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 08-01-2004, 12:42 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 198
Once again, thank you Shelley for your answers.
And especially for the detailed information you provided. I haven't visited Hassan's site..

Yes! I totally agree Abdullah became CP by default. And Papillon - I totally agree that QN continually saying she did not press for Hamzah to be CP - is not true. I too think she pressed hard and championed for her son to be named CP. I also agree that Abdullah was not the right choice - Hassan should have become King. Also, I must say that in light of what I've learned about Hassan recently - positive things - it's sickening that other members of the JRF were 'built up' by trashing Hassan. And that he never spoke out or trashed them back says he is a class act. And sorry, but in reference to Hamzah as King - I think the king's love for his son - in a sense blinded him to who really was the best man for the job.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 08-01-2004, 12:43 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 198
Quote:
Originally posted by papillon+Jul 31st, 2004 - 5:55 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (papillon @ Jul 31st, 2004 - 5:55 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-shelley@Jul 31st, 2004 - 8:59 am
P.* Sarvath is going on with her educational projects.* As she never started them with any help from the State, they are hers and hers alone, and there was no that they could be easily diverted.
Kudos to her, especially for funding them independently of the State.

Private message to QR: I hope you are reading this and take a page. [/b][/quote]
Careful Papillon - or you&#39;ll be accused of harboring jealousy for QR :P
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 08-01-2004, 12:48 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 198
Shelley, was it KH&#39;s hope that KA ruled until he died - or is Abdullah expected to abdicate sometime in the near future?
And also what do you make about the stories of the KA/QR&#39;s spending, the stories about the silverware and the Kuwaiti oil aid money said to have been deposited in private foreign accounts managed by abdullah and his bros for parties?

It sounds to me, Sarvath would have made a better Queen than Rania..
You seem knowledgeable on Jordan - are KA and QR good rulers?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 08-01-2004, 01:04 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 198
One more thing, why aren&#39;t photographs of Hassan or coverage of his activities allowed in Jordanian media?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 08-01-2004, 02:01 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 278
Sorry, I double clicked &#33;
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 08-01-2004, 02:03 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally posted by QueenB@Aug 1st, 2004 - 12:48 am
Shelley, was it KH&#39;s hope that KA ruled until he died - or is Abdullah expected to abdicate sometime in the near future?
And also what do you make about the stories of the KA/QR&#39;s spending, the stories about the silverware and the Kuwaiti oil aid money said to have been deposited in private foreign accounts managed by abdullah and his bros for parties?

It sounds to me, Sarvath would have made a better Queen than Rania..
You seem knowledgeable on Jordan - are KA and QR good rulers?
Hello Queen B., I have no idea what if there was a private deal bewteen father and son and what was going through the late king&#39;s mind during those last few weeks. I think only time will tell, if indeed there will be that sort of time available to the JRF, Jordan and the region. I am fearful that may be an awful lot of upheavals in the Arab world unless something very good happens very soon, but for Jordan, living as it does in a volatile neighbourhood ( P. Hassan originally coined the phrase Iraq and a hard place which was taken up and commonly used ) there could be difficult years ahead. It is noticeable though, that the young crown prince is much less a partner to his elder brother than P. Hassan was to K. Hussein. There are no pictures of P. Hamzah anywhere and he seems to have real serious offical duties or role. Having said that, there was traditionally no real role as such for a crown prince in Jordan. K. Talal was definitely kept down by his father with whom he did not have a good relationship, and K. Hussein was only sixteen when he became crown prince and eighteen when he became king. K. Hussein was savvy and wise enough to give P. Hassan a chance to give let his talents a chance to flourish. They ended up being an amazing duo which was Jordan&#39;s secret weapon for over three decades and did much to create the stable situation in which so much progress was made on so many fronts. It is a luxury in the Arab world to have a deputy you can trust blind: this was not the case in Oman or Qatar where the present leaders both deposed their fathers when the latter were out of the country. That is what makes the accusations against P. Hassan all the moment ridiculous. In the end, man was as powerful as the king himself, and well positioned for months a year to put himself into the driving seat full time. But he was not disloyal. Bottom line.

There has been no mention in the Jordanian press about the silverware but it would not stupid not to assume that many new items have been ordered for the new palace that the king and queen have recently moved into.

The oil scandal is much talked about, both in the media and by people. There seems to be no clear answer. All I hear is that the Prime Minister met with concerned parliamentarians in a closed session to reassure them that all was well, and they left yet more angry and disatissfied with what he had to tell them &#33; The Kuwaiti Parliament is less discreet and there have been many questions raised there.

I don&#39;t know about Sarvath being a better queen - certainly she would have been conscientous. But from a whole a whole swathe of society&#39;s point of view perhaps she would have been a disappointment as I am sure that well into her fifties, and having established her lifestyle as crown princess, she would not have found much need to change. For instance, I doubt that she and P. Hassan would have moved out of their home into something larger and more palatial. They in any case used to use the large dining rooms in Basman and Raghadan Palaces for state entertaining when necessary and I am pretty sure that they would have continued to do so ( King Juan Carlos in Spain did much the same thing when he became King ). And she really did have a reputation for not suffering fools and hanger-ons lightly, ( which is why people who were the couples&#39; friends in their crown princely days are still their friends - they were genuine and not in it for what they could get out of the friendship), which would not have gone down well in a queen. The Amman Baccalaureate School which she created 25 years ago and has enormous waiting lists has a completely transparent system of addmissions and this has never been broached. After many attempts by the great and the good and the very rich to jump the queue, people have learnt to toe the line, and go about registration in the approriate time and manner. She never pushed an un qualified person into a job just because he was known to her, but if there was a case of someone being done an injustice she could be like a dog with a bone and not let go of the case until justice was done, personally making phone calls or whatever was necessary. Obviously this sort of thing did not go down well in a society where &#39;wasta &#39; and patronage are everything, and people derived their power from being the intemediaries of those in power, and being in a position dispenese favours in exchange for receiving them. Don&#39;t forget she came from a background where her family; parents, uncles, brother in law etc, although not royal, had held responsibile posts in countries where the the same sort of thing exists, and she probably had an inbuilt ability to withstand the pressures of being married to a powerful and influential man. But I think the nicest thing I ever read about the former crown prin ce and his wife was an article in which there was this line of poetry : &#39;They walked with kings, but lost not the common touch&#39;.

I don&#39;t know about K. A and Q. Rania being &#39;good&#39; rulers. I do know they work hard as they play. But to what end and how successfully ? Again it is diffcult to tell as yet. Certainly there is a huge amount of money flowing into the country at the top end of the scale, but unemployent has also grown and the number of people living beneath the poverty line has also grown.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #151  
Old 08-01-2004, 02:09 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally posted by QueenB@Aug 1st, 2004 - 1:04 am
One more thing, why aren&#39;t photographs of Hassan or coverage of his activities allowed in Jordanian media?
I think it was too much of a contrast to hear Hassan&#39;s voice in excellent Arabic, and sounding very much like his brother as well. The king after much hard work can now read a prepared speech in Arabic fairly competently, but cannot speak off the cuff or take question and answers in Arabic, so the diffference would de too obvious. Crown prince Hamzah, who can speak Arabic, is also not heard live. I think they had to allow press coverage, because there was much agitation amongst the public that there was nothing about Hassan&#39;s activities in local papers but there is still nothing on radio and television. Why not pictures ? It had to fit into the myth that this was a traitor whose picture should not be allowed up. In Jerash apparantly they hung a huge portait of Hassan strung up along the main road. It was taken down about ten times and ten times the people of Jerash put it up again in slightly different spot until I suppose they finally got the message &#33;
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #152  
Old 08-01-2004, 02:46 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 198
It&#39;s an old article, but has interviews with all the parties involved in the line of succession - and Abdullah&#39;s thoughts on Hassan and his own succession.

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colld...t/abdl2jor.htm
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old 08-01-2004, 03:51 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 198
Thanks Shelley :flower:
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Old 08-01-2004, 05:04 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally posted by QueenB@Aug 1st, 2004 - 2:46 am
It&#39;s an old article, but has interviews with all the parties involved in the line of succession - and Abdullah&#39;s thoughts on Hassan and his own succession.

[
I have read about Abdullah&#39;s visits in disguise to find out what the people are thinking, but am two minds as to why they will only speak out if they don&#39;t know its him. P. Hassan was also able to know what people wanted and what their grievences were, but by going quite openly amongst them. They would trust him to get their message across in a way they have rarely trusted any ministers and officials. So to be able to go amongst the poor and disadvantaged informally , but openly and without guards etc., speak their language, that says a lot. It used to be said that there was not a village that P. Hassan had not visited in Jordan - by car, by foot, by horseback. If he met a soldier in a remote check point somewhere in the desert he would know in two minutes of conversation where he hailed from and like as not a cousin or an uncle or a relative who belonged to the same tribe or clan. This is a valuable asset that is not being used as well it might.
To drive from a to b in Jordan with P. Hassan is a time consuming business as he is regularly recognised and stopped, at least for a hug and kiss , with many demand that he stay to lunch, to dinner, at least a glass of tea. They love their prince and he is sorely missed.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #155  
Old 08-01-2004, 02:44 PM
papillon's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 329
Quote:
Originally posted by QueenB@Jul 31st, 2004 - 11:42 pm
I must say that in light of what I&#39;ve learned about Hassan recently - positive things - it&#39;s sickening that other members of the JRF were &#39;built up&#39; by trashing Hassan. And that he never spoke out or trashed them back says he is a class act.
Couldn&#39;t agree with you more, Queenie. Dignity personified.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #156  
Old 08-01-2004, 02:47 PM
papillon's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 329
Quote:
Originally posted by QueenB@Jul 31st, 2004 - 11:48 pm
It sounds to me, Sarvath would have made a better Queen than Rania.
Definitely. We probably would&#39;ve seen less spending, less catwalking, more heart, more dedication, greater experience and ability.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #157  
Old 08-01-2004, 03:05 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 47
Shelley, do you know the royal family personally?

You have so much insight.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #158  
Old 08-01-2004, 04:23 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 278
One way or another I have spent a lot of time in Jordan. In the course of the years I have met members of the family, and a lot of people I know, know them very well. And you must remember, there is no such thing as privacy in Jordan. I have been a P. Hassan watcher for many years and I think P. Hassan was treated very unfairly at the time of the change. What the man was, and is, and what he was accused of doing , just didn&#39;t fit together. This opinion is shared by many people I know, Jordanian and otherwise and so I staying reading and asking questions, and try to put two and two together. Problem is - I never was very good at maths. &#33;
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #159  
Old 08-01-2004, 06:29 PM
maryshawn's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Green Bay, United States
Posts: 1,214
Shelley is the expert here so I defer to her. On my long trip home today, I did read sections of Queen Noor&#39;s book more closely. Re: succession, it begins with her trying to ensure KH did not see an article in the New York Times entitiled "King Hussein Ails; His Brother Waits" as it basically said KH was dying and a lost cause. In the article Hassan is described as having trained for the job for 33 years. Hassan himself is quoted as saying he was "closer to the kitchen." Somehow KH did see the article and it prompted an address to the Jordanian people saying he was in complete remission. Then it says Hassan flew to England to spend some time with KH and that "KH wished Hassan had supported his idea for a family council to determine KH&#39;s successor on the basis of merit." According to Noor, KH--for many reasons, I think--felt it natural to pass on the ruling of the country to "the new generation" meaning Abdullah. Abdullah was shocked, as was Hassan and KH&#39;s sister, Princess Basma. On a videotape, QN said in the end, KH did not have the time needed to effect the transition more smoothly.......With this family, you have to read between the lines a lot&#33; But, clearly, for reasons known only to Hussein and Hassan who met two days after KH&#39;s return from Mayo, KH felt most comfortable bypassing Hassan and going with his eldest son instead. Some felt, at the time, he felt Abdullah was more compliant with his wishes......but time has shown he may have been wrong about that.....as I highly doubt Hamzah will ever be regent.
__________________
Sometimes, if you stand on the bottom rail of a bridge and lean over to watch the river slipping slowly away beneath you, you will suddenly know everything there is to be known - Winnie the Pooh
Reply With Quote
  #160  
Old 08-01-2004, 09:50 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally posted by shelley@Aug 1st, 2004 - 3:23 pm
And you must remember, there is no such thing as privacy in Jordan.
Really, is the country that small? So I take it that gossip is a pastime in Jordan.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Monaco's succession issues Julia Princely Family of Monaco 552 07-02-2014 02:50 PM
Succession Issues ladybelline Imperial Family of Japan 918 11-02-2013 12:14 PM
Members of the Royal Family and Line of Succession - Broadest Sense hrhcp Royal House of Denmark 85 07-11-2012 10:20 PM
Address to the royal family in Jordan Princess Luna Royal House of Jordan 18 10-18-2005 06:15 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince felipe crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta elena infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan kate middleton king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympic games ottoman picture of the month pom president hollande president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince pieter-christiaan princess princess aimee princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess mary queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit wedding william



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:24 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]