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View Poll Results: Do You Think King Hussein Made the "Right" Succession Decision?
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  #121  
Old 07-28-2004, 02:11 PM
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While I am sure that some input came from JRF members and KH himself, I think the United States had an extraordinary influence on the succession. Apparently, US officials pressured Hussein into changing the succession to Abdullah as Prince Hassan was seen as too anti-Israel and anti-US. Having Abdullah as King, however, was beneficient to the US because they obviously knew of his Western leanings.
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  #122  
Old 07-28-2004, 02:24 PM
CathyEarnshaw
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Originally posted by madonna23@Jul 28th, 2004 - 1:11 pm
While I am sure that some input came from JRF members and KH himself, I think the United States had an extraordinary influence on the succession. Apparently, US officials pressured Hussein into changing the succession to Abdullah as Prince Hassan was seen as too anti-Israel and anti-US. Having Abdullah as King, however, was beneficient to the US because they obviously knew of his Western leanings.
Please cite your sources about alleged US influence on the succession in Jordan.
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  #123  
Old 07-29-2004, 12:33 PM
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There are several articles on the INternet - just search on google...

hear's one I found

http://mondediplo.com/1999/03/15jordan

Also - I made a mistake in my post - Hassan was disliked because of his animosity towards jordanians of palestinian origin (and also I've read for his animosity towards western influence)...sorry for the mistake!
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  #124  
Old 07-29-2004, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by madonna23@Jul 29th, 2004 - 12:33 pm

Also - I made a mistake in my post - Hassan was disliked because of his animosity towards jordanians of palestinian origin (and also I've read for his animosity towards western influence)...sorry for the mistake!
The article by David Wumser that you quote actually makes it very clear that it was not the Palestinian people that P. Hassan was not sympathetic to ( he in fact always made apoint of taking visiting dignatories such as James Wolfensohn, the Head of the World Bank to see the misery in which the Palestinians in the camps were living in, and wrote books and papers about their plight ) but like many people in authority in the 1970's, he drew a very clear line between the anarchists and the ordinary refugee in a camp. The slogan in 1970 was 'Amman - the Hanoi of the Arab World' and what few people seem to realise is that there were actually Palestinian units of the Jordanian Army who fought against the unruly elements who included not only Palestinians, but Japanese Red Army, Baader Meinhof and IRA, determined to overthrow the regine and install a quasi communist or certainly very hard line left wing regime instead in the Jordan. P. Hassan always pushed for Palestinians to be given full citizenship in Jordan but this was rejected by various groups whom it suited better to keep them as a disenfranchised entity. Egarding the second point, about P. Hassan having an animosity towards western inlfuence, it depends what is meant by 'western influence'. In himself he is one of the most cultured, well read, mutli faceted individuals, totally at home in the best of western culture, speaking several languages. Certainly the only man in the JRF and perhaps in the Arab world who is equally at home in a Bedouin tent or in the most erudite of European universities or salons. However, he believes that a relationship with 'the West' should be that of friends not masters. He would never have sold his birthright 'for a mess of pottage' or what the equivalant is in today's materialistic world. And the bit about being against Saddam Hussein is very true. He had little use for the man, and is on record for having told him so at a time when Saddam was actually being chatted up by the Americans and others !
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  #125  
Old 07-29-2004, 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by madonna23@Jul 29th, 2004 - 11:33 am
There are several articles on the INternet - just search on google...

hear's one I found

http://mondediplo.com/1999/03/15jordan

Also - I made a mistake in my post - Hassan was disliked because of his animosity towards jordanians of palestinian origin (and also I've read for his animosity towards western influence)...sorry for the mistake!
as a professional librarian, I do not "search" on Google ... I research. Google is a search engine - not an index, and not a primary source.

I would never use Google to find articles ... one uses online newspapers databases for example, most of which are not accessible to the general public (and are costly)

and just because it says something - what is the veracity of the author, ie
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  #126  
Old 07-29-2004, 04:52 PM
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Shelley, the articles are OP-eds - editorials (opposite the editorials) -- not straightforward news articles ... huge difference. These are opinions. Not news stories.
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  #127  
Old 07-29-2004, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
I would never use Google to find articles ... one uses online newspapers databases for example, most of which are not accessible to the general public (and are costly)
i didn't say i first heard the news on google; i just said you can go there to find archives because you won't find this in the news anymore...

and yes, the US influence thing is speculation but then, isn't this whole forum speculation...speculation backed up by a few opinions?? we will never know what went on in KH head when he made the decision to change succession.
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  #128  
Old 07-29-2004, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marlene+Jul 29th, 2004 - 4:51 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Marlene @ Jul 29th, 2004 - 4:51 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-madonna23@Jul 29th, 2004 - 11:33 am
There are several articles on the INternet - just search on google...

hear&#39;s one I found

http://mondediplo.com/1999/03/15jordan

Also - I made a mistake in my post - Hassan was disliked because of his animosity towards jordanians of palestinian origin (and also I&#39;ve read for his animosity towards western influence)...sorry for the mistake&#33;
as a professional librarian, I do not "search" on Google ... I research. Google is a search engine - not an index, and not a primary source.

I would never use Google to find articles ... one uses online newspapers databases for example, most of which are not accessible to the general public (and are costly)

and just because it says something - what is the veracity of the author, ie [/b][/quote]
marlene:

there is nothing wrong with asking Professor Google a question-as long as you check the credentials of the response. and regarding your beloved newspaper databases-many of them are open to the Google spiders so their content can be searched and displayed. essentially, if there is a part of the web that can not be indexed electronically and displayed via well known search engines then the data might as be written in hyroglyphics on papyrus.

i respect what you say about knowing your sources but there are million ways of searching all the written pages on this planet. really, does anyone honestly think a card catalog is more effecient than a well run database?
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  #129  
Old 07-29-2004, 10:50 PM
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What really happened during the time when sucession was changed - only those involved know.. but some of the answers lie in the public letter KH wrote to his brother as to why he changed the line of succession.. although - where could a copy of that letter be found? Barbara Walters only mentioned the part about KH telling Jordanians that she is one of their own..
There are many stories of behind the scenes &#39;power plays&#39;..
One story had Hassan, then CP and acting regent, firing several of King Hussein&#39;s &#39;people of confidence.&#39; Another was Princess Sarvath redecorating the then ailing king&#39;s offices.. those stories got back to the king and he &#39;realized&#39; he had to change the line of succession.. at that point it was even said that the King saw Hassan&#39;s actions as betrayal.. and that Hassan gave KH his gun and said something along the lines of &#39;if you think I have betrayed you, use it.&#39; He was reportedly very hurt and surprised the king would think he would betray him.

At King Hussein&#39;s hospital bed - it is said that QN and Princess Muna pressured KH to name one of their eldest sons CP.. also that it was KA who &#39;reported&#39; back to KH of what was happening in Jordan..

Hassan had been CP for years and years - and even with his &#39;tense&#39; relationship with QN and his criticism of her attempting to secure her own son&#39;s position within the family - and in all those years, KH never changed the line of succession, even with all the assassination attempts on his own life.
It was always known, KH wanted Hassan to name first Ali - then as time went on, Hamzah, CP and not his own son Rashid. Sarvath - who appears to be similar to Rania in behavior and attitude - was apparently not well liked and her &#39;issues&#39; with Noor ran deep - and Sarvath wanted Rashid to be King, complaining that Noor used Hamzah to upstage Hassan in KH&#39;s eyes.

I think gossip and taking advantage of the King&#39;s condition played an important role in all the &#39;drama&#39;.. Abdullah says he was surprised by being named CP.. I don&#39;t buy that.. I think he did everything he could to secure the CP title. I would not be surprised if Rania - during her visits, also gave her take on what was &#39;going on&#39; in the kings absence.

I also think QN played a huge role. Let&#39;s face it. Like her or not - her role and her existence within Jordan was at stake. Hassan hated her and there was no way she was going to be able to roam around and exert influence.. And once KH was gone -Hassan could name anyone CP - afterall - one of the tensions was that he refused to give KH his word that either Ali or Hamzah would ever be named CP.. Noor was smart enough to know what that meant for her.
I think she tried to convince KH why Hamzah should be CP.. in one article that did refer to the US &#39;influence&#39; in succession - the Pres Clinton met with KH to discuss KH&#39;s plan to name Hamzah CP. Clinton was said to have said to Hussein that whomever he chose would have the support of the US government. After Clinton emerged from the meeting, it is said that KH changed his mind and soon Abdullah was named CP.

In the end - gossip, the king&#39;s own doubt, people making their own opinions known continuously and the king&#39;s own medicated state led to change in succession.
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  #130  
Old 07-29-2004, 10:52 PM
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"Barbara Walters only mentioned the part about KH telling Jordanians that she is one of their own.." - I meant Queen Noor during her interview with 20/20 years ago.
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  #131  
Old 07-30-2004, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by QueenB@Jul 29th, 2004 - 10:50 pm

It was always known, KH wanted Hassan to name first Ali - then as time went on, Hamzah, CP and not his own son Rashid.

Sarvath - who appears to be similar to Rania in behavior and attitude - was apparently not well liked and her &#39;issues&#39; with Noor
There are two points here:

Time and again everyone seems to totally ignore the strictures of the Jordanian Consitution which clearly states that a king can only be succeeded by his son or his brother. Nominating a nephew would have meant opening the Pandora&#39;s box of consitutional reform which may not have been a wise move in the existing political climate.

In what way do you find Sarvath and Rania similar ? There is absolutely no similarity, in their backgrounds, their life styles, and their interests. Before becoming queen Rania exhibited absolutely no interest in anything to do with the projects she now champions. Sarvath has always worked for what she believes in - education and the improvement in the lot of women and the disadvantaged, especially the mentally handicapped.

Regarding the issues with Noor - frankly Noor had a lot of issues with all the women and most of the men of the JRF.
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  #132  
Old 07-30-2004, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marlene@Jul 29th, 2004 - 4:52 pm
Shelley, the articles are OP-eds - editorials (opposite the editorials) -- not straightforward news articles ... huge difference. These are opinions. Not news stories.
I quite agree - these are just op eds - but coming from a family with a background in government I know all too well, that one should also be careful about accepting a news report at face value. Unfortunately, it is all too easy to give a certain item of news a certain spin, if required, and there are few journalists about these days who are totally independent in their views and reporting.
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  #133  
Old 07-30-2004, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by shelley+Jul 30th, 2004 - 2:10 am--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shelley @ Jul 30th, 2004 - 2:10 am)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-QueenB@Jul 29th, 2004 - 10:50 pm

It was always known, KH wanted Hassan to name first Ali - then as time went on, Hamzah, CP and not his own son Rashid.

Sarvath - who appears to be similar to Rania in behavior and attitude - was apparently not well liked and her &#39;issues&#39; with Noor
There are two points here:

Time and again everyone seems to totally ignore the strictures of the Jordanian Consitution which clearly states that a king can only be succeeded by his son or his brother. Nominating a nephew would have meant opening the Pandora&#39;s box of consitutional reform which may not have been a wise move in the existing political climate.

In what way do you find Sarvath and Rania similar ? There is absolutely no similarity, in their backgrounds, their life styles, and their interests. Before becoming queen Rania exhibited absolutely no interest in anything to do with the projects she now champions. Sarvath has always worked for what she believes in - education and the improvement in the lot of women and the disadvantaged, especially the mentally handicapped.

Regarding the issues with Noor - frankly Noor had a lot of issues with all the women and most of the men of the JRF. [/b][/quote]
I am not ignoring the strictures of the Jordanian constitution. In several articles I have read in the past, they have stated that it was the king&#39;s hope to see - at first Ali then Hamzah succeed Hassan. That KH even wrote a letter to Hassan years before his death making that known to him.

Isn&#39;t Sarvath tastes considered lavish, much like Queen Rania? As far as Rania, before becoming Queen, not being involved in the causes she now champions - wasn&#39;t she actively involved in the Jordan River Foundation since it&#39;s inception?

As far as Queen Noor having problems with several members of the JRF, that certainly appears to be the case.
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  #134  
Old 07-30-2004, 06:02 AM
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Originally posted by QueenB@Jul 30th, 2004 - 2:58 am
I am not ignoring the strictures of the Jordanian constitution. In several articles I have read in the past, they have stated that it was the king&#39;s hope to see - at first Ali then Hamzah succeed Hassan. That KH even wrote a letter to Hassan years before his death making that known to him.

Isn&#39;t Sarvath tastes considered lavish, much like Queen Rania? As far as Rania, before becoming Queen, not being involved in the causes she now champions - wasn&#39;t she actively involved in the Jordan River Foundation since it&#39;s inception?

As far as Queen Noor having problems with several members of the JRF, that certainly appears to be the case.
The King did indeed write such a letter P. Hassan at the time of his marriage to Q. Noor ( and before P. Rashid was born ) in which he indicted his preference of Ali over Abdullah and Feisal to succeed Hassan who at that time was without a male heir. P. Hassan is on record as answering the letter in a gracious manner and accepting the premise behind the suggestion of bypassing the two older sons which the king in his letter gave as being that their mother was not Muslim born. However, when P. Rashid was born, it changed the entire dynamics of the situation. Perhaps P. Hassan at thirty one and after three girls would have been wiser to stop having children - something his brother did not do until he was well into his fifties &#33; I still maintain that there should have been a clear understanding and discussion of the implications of making Hassan crown prince in 1965, when he was unmarried and eighteen years old, and some sort of constitutional provison made for him to be regent rather than king in the minority of the king&#39;s sons. Much heartache and distress would have been avoided all around.

Sarvath is perhaps least lavish of the women of the JRF. She has never gone in for couture clothing and fancy houses, and many of the more glitzy habits of some of the other members of the family. Although entitled to use the private plane as wife of the crown prince, she would always use the regular Royal Jordanian flights unless accompanying her husband. She never gave an interview about her private life to any newspaper or magazine, and generally no one in Jordan read very much about the meetings etc. she would chair almost everyday in connection with her various educational activities and the Red Crescent as she always prefered not to involve the press in her day to day life, and kept a very low profile. She would therefore be free to attend those meetigs in jeans and a T shirt as they were always private. ( He various orgaisiations have a a very friendly atmosphere in them, with all borad members being proper particpatory members who feel free to disagree with the princessa nd amongst themselves, without fear of repercussions, which is not always the case in institutions/organisations run by other members of the family ) Her domestic staff/secretaries/hairdresser etc are mainly all Jordanian, unlike the foreign chefs , butlers, dressers used by many other members of the family. Admittedly her car is a jaguar, but her present one is about fifteen years old, the car before, also a jaguar she had for seventeen years, and before that she had an old mercedes that was P. Hassan&#39;s second car when they got married. Her cars are always recognisable as she has always had a small silver cat figure on the bonnet where other people might have a horse or a dog emblem &#33; Unlike the other women of the family, she usually goes out without guards and if she does use a guard car it is a normal car following her, rather than use a big GMC as do most members of the family, including many of the women. P. Hassan and P. sarvath live in what is arguably the nicest house of any of the JRF members, in that it is one of the oldest houses in Amman, with a lot of old architectural charm, and a beautiful mature garden, but it is by far the smallest, least extravagent of any of the family members including the late king&#39;s children&#39;s homes. Clearly not decorated inside by any designer, inside it is a cross between that of a rather run down English country house and a university professor&#39;s house. No big receptions rooms, fancy furnishings etc - rather filled to the brim with Indian, Middle Eastern a nd European antique furniture, books, paintings, records and several cats and dogs. Some people who think that in fact P. Hassan should have had a grander home as crown prince complained about the fact that house has remained exactly the same since the prince and princess moved into it thirty five years ago, down to the same curtains and soft furnishings, except for getting fuller and fuller of books, records and paintings. ( K. Hussein, P. Mohammed, P. Basma even - one of the more sesible members of the family - have rebuilt , redeorated and expanded their homes several times over the past few decades) P. Hassan&#39;s married daughters live in the smallest and least ostentatious houses of any of their cousins ( and they were both married when their father was crown prince ). Their weddings were beatifully arranged but relatively low key, although admittedly with the glitzest guest lists prior to the wedding of P. Hamzah. P. Mohammed and P. Basma as siblings of K. Hussein, his late cousin P. Shakir, and many influential members of the Jordanian establishment etc all have much bigger houses than P. Hassan and the wives ( P. Firyal and co.) are decked out from head to toe in designer clothes. Undoubtedly the crown prince could have had the same if he and his wife had wanted it. Generally, their life style was extremely &#39;normal&#39; with P. Sarvath taking her children to school every morning , in a track suit. Being seen in shops around town. And actually she is not unpopular with the rank and file Jordanian - admittedly there were some of the more glamoourous members of society who felt that she did not represent what they would want from their crown prince&#39;s wife. ( These are the same people who carp and snipe at Q. Noor and now Q. Rania&#39;s excesses so there is no pleasing some people). It is extraordinary that so much folk-lore should have grown up around a woman who in fact is the anthesis of everything she is accused of being. This is one of life&#39;s mysteries.

As for the Jordan River Foundation. It was called the Jordan River Designs and was started by Q. Noor, with help from USAID. At some point in 1998, when the late king fell ill, Q. Noor handed over its running then P. Rania. The organisation was in trouble as USAID had pulled out and it needed a new breath of life and she was too busy to give it her full attention.
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  #135  
Old 07-30-2004, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by shelley@Jul 30th, 2004 - 1:19 am
I quite agree - these are just op eds - but coming from a family with a background in government I know all too well, that one should also be careful about accepting a news report at face value. Unfortunately, it is all too easy to give a certain item of news a certain spin, if required, and there are few journalists about these days who are totally independent in their views and reporting.
You are so right about this, Shelley. Budgets in the broadcast and print media have been so scaled back that, often, reporters are not given the time and the funds they need to properly investigate their stories. If there happens to be a press release lying around related to a given story, it is all too tempting to extract portions of it and report them as facts. I work in marketing, so I can vouch how relatively easy it is to influence the media.

Last year around this time, my local newspaper (a major city metropolitan newspaper) published a story about me. The reporter didn&#39;t even call me for an interview or ring to fact check. I had no warning, just was reading the paper one day and came upon a story about me and my work. It contained major factual errors (about where I live, what I was doing, how long I&#39;d been doing it). I&#39;ve been taking in the news with a very jaundiced eye since then. It was a hard lesson, even though, fortunately, the nature of the story wasn&#39;t critical of me. But it gave me great empathy for public figures. Definitely don&#39;t believe everything you read, even in the so-called legitimate press.
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  #136  
Old 07-30-2004, 05:06 PM
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Thank you, Papillon
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  #137  
Old 07-31-2004, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by shelley+Jul 30th, 2004 - 6:02 am--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shelley @ Jul 30th, 2004 - 6:02 am)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-QueenB@Jul 30th, 2004 - 2:58 am
I am not ignoring the strictures of the Jordanian constitution. In several articles I have read in the past, they have stated that it was the king&#39;s hope to see - at first Ali then Hamzah succeed Hassan. That KH even wrote a letter to Hassan years before his death making that known to him.

Isn&#39;t Sarvath tastes considered lavish, much like Queen Rania? As far as Rania, before becoming Queen, not being involved in the causes she now champions - wasn&#39;t she actively involved in the Jordan River Foundation since it&#39;s inception?

As far as Queen Noor having problems with several members of the JRF, that certainly appears to be the case.
The King did indeed write such a letter P. Hassan at the time of his marriage to Q. Noor ( and before P. Rashid was born ) in which he indicted his preference of Ali over Abdullah and Feisal to succeed Hassan who at that time was without a male heir. P. Hassan is on record as answering the letter in a gracious manner and accepting the premise behind the suggestion of bypassing the two older sons which the king in his letter gave as being that their mother was not Muslim born. However, when P. Rashid was born, it changed the entire dynamics of the situation. Perhaps P. Hassan at thirty one and after three girls would have been wiser to stop having children - something his brother did not do until he was well into his fifties &#33; I still maintain that there should have been a clear understanding and discussion of the implications of making Hassan crown prince in 1965, when he was unmarried and eighteen years old, and some sort of constitutional provison made for him to be regent rather than king in the minority of the king&#39;s sons. Much heartache and distress would have been avoided all around.

Sarvath is perhaps least lavish of the women of the JRF. She has never gone in for couture clothing and fancy houses, and many of the more glitzy habits of some of the other members of the family. Although entitled to use the private plane as wife of the crown prince, she would always use the regular Royal Jordanian flights unless accompanying her husband. She never gave an interview about her private life to any newspaper or magazine, and generally no one in Jordan read very much about the meetings etc. she would chair almost everyday in connection with her various educational activities and the Red Crescent as she always prefered not to involve the press in her day to day life, and kept a very low profile. She would therefore be free to attend those meetigs in jeans and a T shirt as they were always private. ( He various orgaisiations have a a very friendly atmosphere in them, with all borad members being proper particpatory members who feel free to disagree with the princessa nd amongst themselves, without fear of repercussions, which is not always the case in institutions/organisations run by other members of the family ) Her domestic staff/secretaries/hairdresser etc are mainly all Jordanian, unlike the foreign chefs , butlers, dressers used by many other members of the family. Admittedly her car is a jaguar, but her present one is about fifteen years old, the car before, also a jaguar she had for seventeen years, and before that she had an old mercedes that was P. Hassan&#39;s second car when they got married. Her cars are always recognisable as she has always had a small silver cat figure on the bonnet where other people might have a horse or a dog emblem &#33; Unlike the other women of the family, she usually goes out without guards and if she does use a guard car it is a normal car following her, rather than use a big GMC as do most members of the family, including many of the women. P. Hassan and P. sarvath live in what is arguably the nicest house of any of the JRF members, in that it is one of the oldest houses in Amman, with a lot of old architectural charm, and a beautiful mature garden, but it is by far the smallest, least extravagent of any of the family members including the late king&#39;s children&#39;s homes. Clearly not decorated inside by any designer, inside it is a cross between that of a rather run down English country house and a university professor&#39;s house. No big receptions rooms, fancy furnishings etc - rather filled to the brim with Indian, Middle Eastern a nd European antique furniture, books, paintings, records and several cats and dogs. Some people who think that in fact P. Hassan should have had a grander home as crown prince complained about the fact that house has remained exactly the same since the prince and princess moved into it thirty five years ago, down to the same curtains and soft furnishings, except for getting fuller and fuller of books, records and paintings. ( K. Hussein, P. Mohammed, P. Basma even - one of the more sesible members of the family - have rebuilt , redeorated and expanded their homes several times over the past few decades) P. Hassan&#39;s married daughters live in the smallest and least ostentatious houses of any of their cousins ( and they were both married when their father was crown prince ). Their weddings were beatifully arranged but relatively low key, although admittedly with the glitzest guest lists prior to the wedding of P. Hamzah. P. Mohammed and P. Basma as siblings of K. Hussein, his late cousin P. Shakir, and many influential members of the Jordanian establishment etc all have much bigger houses than P. Hassan and the wives ( P. Firyal and co.) are decked out from head to toe in designer clothes. Undoubtedly the crown prince could have had the same if he and his wife had wanted it. Generally, their life style was extremely &#39;normal&#39; with P. Sarvath taking her children to school every morning , in a track suit. Being seen in shops around town. And actually she is not unpopular with the rank and file Jordanian - admittedly there were some of the more glamoourous members of society who felt that she did not represent what they would want from their crown prince&#39;s wife. ( These are the same people who carp and snipe at Q. Noor and now Q. Rania&#39;s excesses so there is no pleasing some people). It is extraordinary that so much folk-lore should have grown up around a woman who in fact is the anthesis of everything she is accused of being. This is one of life&#39;s mysteries.

As for the Jordan River Foundation. It was called the Jordan River Designs and was started by Q. Noor, with help from USAID. At some point in 1998, when the late king fell ill, Q. Noor handed over its running then P. Rania. The organisation was in trouble as USAID had pulled out and it needed a new breath of life and she was too busy to give it her full attention. [/b][/quote]
Thank you Shelley for clarifying the story behind King Hussein&#39;s letters to Hassan on the issue of CP hood. Also for the background on Sarvath and the spending of members of the JRF.. Are the stories of her decorating the then ailing KH&#39;s offices true?
In pro Abdullah articles, it usually talks about Sarvath&#39;s &#39;greed&#39; and her &#39;unpopularity&#39; within Jordan. So thanks for touching on those points.

I agree a constitutional provison should have been made for him to be regent rather than king. I wonder who he would have named as CP, afterall, it seems KH changed his mind several times as to who he wanted to be CP.

I have two questions:
the first is, have you ever read or heard about the contents of the public letter KH wrote mapping out his reasons for changing the line of succession? If so, what were his reasons?
Whenever KA or QN give interviews and the drama behind the scenes is brought up, immediately Hassan is cited as overstepping his position and somehow disrespecting the authority of the late KH. Also KA has said KH was very furious with Hassan over whatever it was he did in KH&#39;s absence - during his chemo therapy.

the second is, why in the world is QR going around saying that she came up with the concept, launched and is behind the success of Jordan River Foundation - that is the name of the organization as she&#39;s said it many times and it is now referred to by her and her office as JRF - also taking credit for Jordan River Designs? Is it as successful as she claims? There are pictures from 96&#39; I think it is, where she is at the foundation and posing with members and beneficiaries of the organization.. was she media hungry even back then?

And yes, you have to be very careful what you believe in the media. Many reporters do not do enough research.. and those same reporters sometimes get it wrong.
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  #138  
Old 07-31-2004, 05:45 AM
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Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally posted by QueenB@Jul 31st, 2004 - 4:16 am
Thank you Shelley for clarifying the story behind King Hussein&#39;s letters to Hassan on the issue of CP hood. Also for the background on Sarvath and the spending of members of the JRF.. Are the stories of her decorating the then ailing KH&#39;s offices true?
In pro Abdullah articles, it usually talks about Sarvath&#39;s &#39;greed&#39; and her &#39;unpopularity&#39; within Jordan. So thanks for touching on those points.

I agree a constitutional provison should have been made for him to be regent rather than king. I wonder who he would have named as CP, afterall, it seems KH changed his mind several times as to who he wanted to be CP.

I have two questions:
the first is, have you ever read or heard about the contents of the public letter KH wrote mapping out his reasons for changing the line of succession? If so, what were his reasons?
Whenever KA or QN give interviews and the drama behind the scenes is brought up, immediately Hassan is cited as overstepping his position and somehow disrespecting the authority of the late KH. Also KA has said KH was very furious with Hassan over whatever it was he did in KH&#39;s absence - during his chemo therapy.

the second is, why in the world is QR going around saying that she came up with the concept, launched and is behind the success of Jordan River Foundation - that is the name of the organization as she&#39;s said it many times and it is now referred to by her and her office as JRF - also taking credit for Jordan River Designs? Is it as successful as she claims? There are pictures from 96&#39; I think it is, where she is at the foundation and posing with members and beneficiaries of the organization.. was she media hungry even back then?

And yes, you have to be very careful what you believe in the media. Many reporters do not do enough research.. and those same reporters sometimes get it wrong.
Yes I have seen the letter , in Arabic and in English. An English translation was available on many web sites. It is a confused letter which basically can be divided into three sections - in one he praises P. Hassan for his efforts over the many years and basically says you will be free to persue on your many talents and interests, the second praises his wife and says that she has been the victim of persecution etc., the third is worrying about the state of the enviroment, the possibility of extinct diseases returning to plague us, and the state of the ozone layer. I believe there was an acknowledgement from P. Hassan that was never printed. What is interesting is that throughout the period of the regency the king referred to the prince as &#39;the cornerstone of the Hashemites&#39;. On the 9th January he spoke to the Prime Minister from London, asking him to tell the parliament and cabinet, and the people of Jordan that he was so pleased with the way his brother was running things in his absence and he could recover confortable in the knowledge that all was well. ( This was in the Jordan Times Archives at one point. I don&#39;t know if it is still available ) On the 9th February, he was being buried.

It is always cited that P. Hassan overstepped the mark, but I have written and argued about this on several threads and posts. P. Hassan had been regent several times over the past 34 years, and for almost half of the preceding seven years when the king was basically tired and suffering not only from cancer but from a certain degree of &#39;burnout&#39; which is not surprising considering he had been in the job since the age of 16. During this period, P. Hassan was increasingly being asked to take over the day to day afffairs of state, in addition to his normal duties and responsibilties. This included making foreign visits on behalf of his brother, sitting in on policy meetings with the cabinet and army top brass, receiving foreign ambassadors&#39; letters of credence etc. But there were certain limits to his powers. On this last occasion, the king all but abdicated. He transfered all his powers in total to the prince. Despite there not being a constitutional need for this, P. Hassan still kept in close consultation with his brother, sending weekly reports etc, and speaking to him almost daily. Yes, decisions were taken, but the whole point of the exercise was that the head of state was incapitated and decisons had to be made. It can perhaps be argued that certain decisons were the wrong ones, but no one should argue why P. Hassan actually took decisions. We now know that unfortunately many of the reports were carried back and forth by people who themselves had an interest in making sure Hassan did not succeed - ie the two men who are now discredited as being corrupt. I cannot rememeber if it is in this thread or one of the others, but it is mentioned that the Mayor of Amman was removed from his post during the period of Hassan&#39;s regency. The man was found guilty of accepting a huge bribe to allow 56 story hotel to be built in a residental district of Amman where the limit had hitherto been 4 stories. Unfortunately it then turned out that one of the major
shareholders was a brother of the then prime minister and when this was relayed to the king he asked that both the mayor and the prime minister be changed.

P. Sarvath definitely did not redecorate the palace nor the king&#39;s offices. The President of Germany was to pay a State visit to Jordan, and the king asked P. Hassan to go ahead with the visit. The president&#39;s wife was seriusly ill and needed special food prepared for her, and travelled with a cook and a dietician. Knowing from previous experience that the public areas of the official palace were often not particularly clean, P.Sarvath paid a visit to the kitchens and cloakrooms accompanied bu the Chief Chamberlain, the Head of the Royal Court, and a young protocol officer who is now Prime Minister of Jordan. The kitchens and bathrooms were predicatably filthy and P. Sarvath gave instructions that they be cleaned up, irrespective of whether there were visitors or not and then paid a visit to all the kitchen and pantries that are scattered about the palace for general use, to check on them too. At no point did she even enter the King&#39;s personal offices. The accurate story has been fully reported in more than report and magazine now. But naturally the officials were not pleased at being caught out as being negilgent in their duty. As one of the articles pointed out - this was essentially one of the differences between Q. Noor and P. Sarvath. The former really had no interest in things like kitchen and bathroom hygenie if it didn;t directly pertain to her. The latter did feel a responsibilty to make sure that all these details were proerly supervised. In this she is taking a leaf out of P. Hassan&#39;s book, who always made a bee-line for places like cloakrooms when inspecting a conference centre etc as he knew all too well that in countries like Jordan this sort of detailed tends to get overlooked and only the VIP&#39;s facilities are of an appropriate standard.

I may be wrong in saying Q. Noor handed over the Jordan Rivers Design in 1998, rather than 1996, but I am right in saying that it was first started by Q. Noor and revamped by Q. Rania. The same goes for the violence against women project, which was started by P. Hassan and P. Sarvath before being taken over by Q. Rania. P. Hassan spent a lot of time and effort using his prestige to talk to senior police officers, tribal heads etc to try and get them to understand that these women were victims and not the guilty party. he brought over police officers from Britain who were trained in dealing with vistims or rape and abuse, to train Sarvath which have been similarly hi-jacked. It is sad that P. Hassan is not given credit for any of these in the Jordanian media, and is never asked to attend functions connected with them.

I hope this answers most of your queries.
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  #139  
Old 07-31-2004, 06:10 AM
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Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 198
Quote:
Originally posted by shelley+Jul 31st, 2004 - 5:45 am--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shelley @ Jul 31st, 2004 - 5:45 am)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-QueenB@Jul 31st, 2004 - 4:16 am
Thank you Shelley for clarifying the story behind King Hussein&#39;s letters to Hassan on the issue of CP hood. Also for the background on Sarvath and the spending of members of the JRF.. Are the stories of her decorating the then ailing KH&#39;s offices true?
In pro Abdullah articles, it usually talks about Sarvath&#39;s &#39;greed&#39; and her &#39;unpopularity&#39; within Jordan. So thanks for touching on those points.

I agree a constitutional provison should have been made for him to be regent rather than king. I wonder who he would have named as CP, afterall, it seems KH changed his mind several times as to who he wanted to be CP.

I have two questions:
the first is, have you ever read or heard about the contents of the public letter KH wrote mapping out his reasons for changing the line of succession? If so, what were his reasons?
Whenever KA or QN give interviews and the drama behind the scenes is brought up, immediately Hassan is cited as overstepping his position and somehow disrespecting the authority of the late KH. Also KA has said KH was very furious with Hassan over whatever it was he did in KH&#39;s absence - during his chemo therapy.

the second is, why in the world is QR going around saying that she came up with the concept, launched and is behind the success of Jordan River Foundation - that is the name of the organization as she&#39;s said it many times and it is now referred to by her and her office as JRF - also taking credit for Jordan River Designs? Is it as successful as she claims? There are pictures from 96&#39; I think it is, where she is at the foundation and posing with members and beneficiaries of the organization.. was she media hungry even back then?

And yes, you have to be very careful what you believe in the media. Many reporters do not do enough research.. and those same reporters sometimes get it wrong.
Yes I have seen the letter , in Arabic and in English. An English translation was available on many web sites. It is a confused letter which basically can be divided into three sections - in one he praises P. Hassan for his efforts over the many years and basically says you will be free to persue on your many talents and interests, the second praises his wife and says that she has been the victim of persecution etc., the third is worrying about the state of the enviroment, the possibility of extinct diseases returning to plague us, and the state of the ozone layer. I believe there was an acknowledgement from P. Hassan that was never printed. What is interesting is that throughout the period of the regency the king referred to the prince as &#39;the cornerstone of the Hashemites&#39;. On the 9th January he spoke to the Prime Minister from London, asking him to tell the parliament and cabinet, and the people of Jordan that he was so pleased with the way his brother was running things in his absence and he could recover confortable in the knowledge that all was well. ( This was in the Jordan Times Archives at one point. I don&#39;t know if it is still available ) On the 9th February, he was being buried.

It is always cited that P. Hassan overstepped the mark, but I have written and argued about this on several threads and posts. P. Hassan had been regent several times over the past 34 years, and for almost half of the preceding seven years when the king was basically tired and suffering not only from cancer but from a certain degree of &#39;burnout&#39; which is not surprising considering he had been in the job since the age of 16. During this period, P. Hassan was increasingly being asked to take over the day to day afffairs of state, in addition to his normal duties and responsibilties. This included making foreign visits on behalf of his brother, sitting in on policy meetings with the cabinet and army top brass, receiving foreign ambassadors&#39; letters of credence etc. But there were certain limits to his powers. On this last occasion, the king all but abdicated. He transfered all his powers in total to the prince. Despite there not being a constitutional need for this, P. Hassan still kept in close consultation with his brother, sending weekly reports etc, and speaking to him almost daily. Yes, decisions were taken, but the whole point of the exercise was that the head of state was incapitated and decisons had to be made. It can perhaps be argued that certain decisons were the wrong ones, but no one should argue why P. Hassan actually took decisions. We now know that unfortunately many of the reports were carried back and forth by people who themselves had an interest in making sure Hassan did not succeed - ie the two men who are now discredited as being corrupt. I cannot rememeber if it is in this thread or one of the others, but it is mentioned that the Mayor of Amman was removed from his post during the period of Hassan&#39;s regency. The man was found guilty of accepting a huge bribe to allow 56 story hotel to be built in a residental district of Amman where the limit had hitherto been 4 stories. Unfortunately it then turned out that one of the major
shareholders was a brother of the then prime minister and when this was relayed to the king he asked that both the mayor and the prime minister be changed.

P. Sarvath definitely did not redecorate the palace nor the king&#39;s offices. The President of Germany was to pay a State visit to Jordan, and the king asked P. Hassan to go ahead with the visit. The president&#39;s wife was seriusly ill and needed special food prepared for her, and travelled with a cook and a dietician. Knowing from previous experience that the public areas of the official palace were often not particularly clean, P.Sarvath paid a visit to the kitchens and cloakrooms accompanied bu the Chief Chamberlain, the Head of the Royal Court, and a young protocol officer who is now Prime Minister of Jordan. The kitchens and bathrooms were predicatably filthy and P. Sarvath gave instructions that they be cleaned up, irrespective of whether there were visitors or not and then paid a visit to all the kitchen and pantries that are scattered about the palace for general use, to check on them too. At no point did she even enter the King&#39;s personal offices. The accurate story has been fully reported in more than report and magazine now. But naturally the officials were not pleased at being caught out as being negilgent in their duty. As one of the articles pointed out - this was essentially one of the differences between Q. Noor and P. Sarvath. The former really had no interest in things like kitchen and bathroom hygenie if it didn;t directly pertain to her. The latter did feel a responsibilty to make sure that all these details were proerly supervised. In this she is taking a leaf out of P. Hassan&#39;s book, who always made a bee-line for places like cloakrooms when inspecting a conference centre etc as he knew all too well that in countries like Jordan this sort of detailed tends to get overlooked and only the VIP&#39;s facilities are of an appropriate standard.

I may be wrong in saying Q. Noor handed over the Jordan Rivers Design in 1998, rather than 1996, but I am right in saying that it was first started by Q. Noor and revamped by Q. Rania. The same goes for the violence against women project, which was started by P. Hassan and P. Sarvath before being taken over by Q. Rania. P. Hassan spent a lot of time and effort using his prestige to talk to senior police officers, tribal heads etc to try and get them to understand that these women were victims and not the guilty party. he brought over police officers from Britain who were trained in dealing with vistims or rape and abuse, to train Sarvath which have been similarly hi-jacked. It is sad that P. Hassan is not given credit for any of these in the Jordanian media, and is never asked to attend functions connected with them.

I hope this answers most of your queries. [/b][/quote]
Thank you very much, Shelley for your answers :flower: ... Your response really puts a new light on things.
Could you share with us the name of a website carrying the letter in it&#39;s entirety?
From the way the letter has been described - it&#39;s as if it carries descriptions of any wrong doing Hassan did.. as well as praising Abdullah.

Why didn&#39;t the King just keep Hassan CP? Was Abdullah one of the people relaying stories of what was going on in Jordan to King Hussein and that&#39;s why he became CP? He claims he was surprised by the decision, but I never bought that.
In every interview I have ever seen with QR/KA or QN - Hassan is always portrayed as a coniving, backstabbing, traitorous man who would have somehow been a terrible leader for Jordan. And neither the current King and Queen or QN ever bothers to clarify it. Did Abdullah scheme his way to the CP position? And was Noor trying to influence KH behind the scenes? Do you think Jordan would have been a different place under Hassan?

It seems also that Hassan is not being treated with respect by KA. And KA coming off as benevolent for allowing Hassan to stay in the Country, despite of his alleged wrong doings - I&#39;ve even seen pictures of Hamzah seeming to glare at Hassan.
What are Hassan and Sarvath&#39;s position in Jordan now?

It&#39;s sad that Hassan or Sarvath are not getting credit for whatever positive things they have done - and are in a sense scapegoats. But a lot of projects that had nothing to do with either QR or KA - they are suddenly taking credit for so that isn&#39;t surprising.
Did the Jordan River designs and well as P Hassan and P Sarvath&#39;s projects, did they do any better under Rania or were they better off with their original founders?
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  #140  
Old 07-31-2004, 09:59 AM
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Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally posted by QueenB@Jul 31st, 2004 - 6:10 am
Thank you very much, Shelley for your answers&nbsp; :flower: ... Your response really puts a new light on things.
Could you share with us the name of a website carrying the letter in it&#39;s entirety?
From the way the letter has been described - it&#39;s as if it carries descriptions of any wrong doing Hassan did.. as well as praising Abdullah.

Why didn&#39;t the King just keep Hassan CP? Was Abdullah one of the people relaying stories of what was going on in Jordan to King Hussein and that&#39;s why he became CP? He claims he was surprised by the decision, but I never bought that.
In every interview I have ever seen with QR/KA or QN - Hassan is always portrayed as a coniving, backstabbing, traitorous man who would have somehow been a terrible leader for Jordan. And neither the current King and Queen or QN ever bothers to clarify it. Did Abdullah scheme his way to the CP position? And was Noor trying to influence KH behind the scenes? Do you think Jordan would have been a different place under Hassan?

It seems also that Hassan is not being treated with respect by KA. And KA coming off as benevolent for allowing Hassan to stay in the Country, despite of his alleged wrong doings - I&#39;ve even seen pictures of Hamzah seeming to glare at Hassan.
What are Hassan and Sarvath&#39;s position in Jordan now?&nbsp;

It&#39;s sad that Hassan or Sarvath are not getting credit for whatever positive things they have done - and are in a sense scapegoats. But a lot of projects that had nothing to do with either QR or KA - they are suddenly taking credit for so that isn&#39;t surprising.
Did the Jordan River designs and well as P Hassan and P Sarvath&#39;s projects, did they do any better under Rania or were they better off with their original founders?
I don&#39;t know if the letter is still available, I&#39;ll have a look. Actually, no where in the letter does the king mention Abdullah - only Noor and Hamzah.

Frankly, I think Abdullah only came into the picture by default, as it was the only way that Hamzah could be named crown prince with the consitution ( brother or son, not nephew ). I am sure that if there had been a way by which the late king could have consitutionally nominated Hamzah to succeed Hassan, things might have been very different now. I have written about the difference in the style of the two men, and how and whom I think was responsible for the change or at least the misunderstanding between the brothers, and other people have contributed to that discussion ( I think in survey says - &#39;Do you think K. Hussein made the right decision ?&#39; You might find the information you are looking for there, regarding how Jordan would have been under Hassan. )

Regarding what P. Hassan does now. First of all, none of the dirt stuck on either him or P. Sarvath as people saw if for exactly what it was, smokescreen to allow various changes to be made. If anything, the affection and respect he is held in in Jordan elsewhere ( Arab or non Arab) is higher than anything,as previously it was the Crown Prince of Jordan who was invited to attend functions and join boards and committees etc. Today El Hassan bin Talal is in even more demand and is I believe trying to scale down the various international activities and committments he is involved in as he just cannot cope with the volume of work and requests coming his way ( I think people work on the old premise, if you want to get something done, ask a busy person&#33 No photographs are allowed to be put up in government offices and he is not allowed to be heard or seen on Jordanian televison or radio, although in the last year or so, since the war in Iraq, he has been allowed some press exposure. Despite this, he is constantly on the other Arab channels, state and privately owned, in Egypt, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, Morocco, Lebabnon, Algeria etc etc and is often on the BBC and CNN etc as well as other televison and radio stations world wide. With cable and satellite, everyone is Jordan follows him and there is a feeling of quiet anger that they haev to follow &#39;their&#39; prince through other countries&#39; networks. It is particularly galling as there really is no one else of stature ever speaking up from Jordan on any issue, and so the Jordanians feel rather let down. P. Hassan still meets people informally throughout the country, listen to their problems, and acts as a sort wailing wall for them and tries to help . He gives talks and lectures, and somehow there are always masses of people wanting to to hear him, although these are rarely publised before hand. A dinner and talk he gave a few months ago was sold out twice with people asking to come, after dinner, not to eat but just to hear him. In the spring, it got known that he was going to give an address at a private memorial meeting for friend. When it was known that he would be there, the family had to change the venue twice ending up with a hall that can seeat 2000 people which was packed. Internationally P Hassan travels a lot and his opinion is sought by many people as diverse as the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the French Foreign Minister, Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, the Vatican and the Archbishop of Canterbury and so on and so forth. But no official in Jordan can ask for his advice even on matters that he dealt with intimately for twenty/thirty years . He is never consulted on anything remotely political or economic. I believe that there was a report brought out by the ICG and by the independent Centre for Strategic Studies, in which they both said that if the prince&#39;s advice on how to diffuse the troubles in the Southern city of Ma&#39;an a year and half ago had been listened to, the crisis might well have been averted.

How are things doing ? Well, the Al Bait Foundation which was taken from him is limping badly. Crown Prince Hamzah does not have the knowledge and stature to pull together Muslim scholars from all over the world and promote creative dialogue. Q. Rania is working hard with the Family Protection Unit but she just does not enjoy the same sort of credibility that P. Hassan did. Some of the big projects like the completion of the Wadi Mujib Dam which was a baby of P Hassan&#39;s have been finished without him, but these were projects that were well on their way, as was the QEZ in Aqaba and the Free Trade Agreement with the US, and the various financial aggreements such as with the Paris Club, the Barcelona Process etc. A sensible thing that the new government did was to keep on the same minister of economy who had worked under Hassan until these and other like projects were completed. I will look for other threads etc to quote to you. have you read P. Hassan&#39;s websit ? It seems under reconstruction as its a bit out of date but it might give you an idea as to what the man is doing these days and what he has been involved in in the past.

P. Sarvath is going on with her educational projects. As she never started them with any help from the State, they are hers and hers alone, and there was no that they could be easily diverted. In Jordan, P. Hassan is still responsible for the Royal Scientific Society, The Higher Council for Science and Technology, The Arab Thought Forum, the Royal Intitutue for Inter faith Studies, amongst others, which he started as private initiatives .
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