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View Poll Results: Do You Think King Hussein Made the "Right" Succession Decision?
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  #101  
Old 06-17-2004, 12:52 PM
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This is a difficult question. So many points of view swirl around that it is hard to see what is right. I wish that King Hussein had not died and had more time to promote peace and goodwill in the Middle East. However, I think there is no way there will ever be peace. There are too many fanatics who won't listen to reason and agree to disagree about certain things.

But King Hussein has come the closest to succeeding in this aim.
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  #102  
Old 06-17-2004, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamcatchergrl@Jun 17th, 2004 - 3:26 am
Only KA would have been able to walk the tightrope between the Arab states and the west after 9-11. Hassan and Hamzah would have veered too far to the West for the liking of the Jordanian people and the Arab world. Besides Hamzah was way too young. In my opinion, he still is. He needs time to be his own man rather than a pale imitation of his father. No matter what his mother thinks.
What did KA do in the aftermath of 9/11 that really showed any genius or leadership? I don't agree that "only" he could've walked this tightrope. I think many of us in the States were agog that no Arab leader (ruler or religious leader, just anyone) really emerged in the aftermath to right the boat. I don't know what Hamzah might've done in that situation, but I wholly agree with you that, despite his mother's fondest wishes, he is far too young for the job. Just too little life and leadership experience, regardless of how intelligent he might be. He would have very little credibility on the world stage. Picking him would have been a big mistake.
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  #103  
Old 06-17-2004, 04:53 PM
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I hope this thread is fully read by people interested in Middle Eastern topics as it would useful to hear from some of the Jordanians who post to that forum. People on the ground should have the best perspective.
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  #104  
Old 06-18-2004, 04:22 AM
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When I mentioned this discussion to a friend of mine who is married to a Jordanian and has lived a long time in Amman, this is what she said :

You are right to assume that much of the so called dirt on Prince Hassan and Princess Sarvath was concocted by the officials you mention. Battikhi has since been convicted of embezzling millions of dinars and after a spell in gaol is under house arrest. Ka'abneh ( former army chief ) cannot leave the country for fear of arrest as he is accused by interpol of using Jordanian Army aircraft to transport guns he was selling to various South American countries. Many of us believe that when it became clear that the late King was sicker than we all believed, these individuals and others like them with many skeletons in their closets, panicked. Prince Hassan was known to have raised questions as to the enormous amounts of money these men had at their disposal ( for example, Ka'abneh, who come from a modest background managed to build a JD 3 million residence on an army salary). The late king had been ailing for ten months before his illness was diagonosed properly, and was probably ill for much longer. For years his primary concern was the peace of the Middle East and so advantage had been taken of a less than vigilant rule at home. These officials fearing that with a King Hassan too many uncomfortable questions would be asked, as was already happening during the regency period, and being well aware of the tensions and jealousies with the Royal family, decided to turn this to their advantage. Sadly there were enough people with their own agendas and insecurities about the future who were willing to give them a hearing. Although he would have been fair and just there is no doubt that Prince Hassan's style is very different to his late brother's. The way in he and Princess Sarvath brought up and educated their family is a clear indication of that. No one here today, and not even that many five years ago, believed the slurs, but they served their purpose at the time. So is Jordan better off ? It depends from where you stand. A lot of money is coming into the country and the present King believes in a trickle down affect, hoping that the huge multi million projects that he has initiated will ultimately benefit all the population, although in theinterim it seems a few people are getting very rich indded, and the poor and the middle class are having to tighten their belts. Prince Hassan belived in what he called a bottom up approach where projects were created which enabled people to improve their quality of life and go up - so he believed in teacher training , roads, hospitals, mass housing, citizens conferences, municipal and borough elections etc. , national debate whatever. The present government believes in IT, toursim, high profile international conferences etc. There is a definite desire to present a more slick, glossy public face of Jordan, in the hope that this will attract the sort of investment they are looking for. .King Hussein's Jordan was a more traditional Arab society. Prince Hassan's would have probably combined the old and the new, being in that he was himself a mixture of both cultures, education and tradition. King Abdullah's vision is of a modern state with a totally international image. He and his wife are young and his influence and cultural affinities are western, and her's from the Gulf where she was born and brought up. are basically Different men, different styles. As the mother and grandmother of Jordanians, I hope the present King succeeds in his endeavors, as he is what we have now.
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  #105  
Old 06-18-2004, 11:57 AM
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That post from the Jordanian point of view was quite informative and enlightening!! Thank you for sharing!
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  #106  
Old 06-20-2004, 10:48 AM
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shelley all I can do is applaud!

there are so many vicious rumours about PHassan and his family and it is wonderful for you to put them all straight, i need to add that I think he would have made the best leader especially since 9/11 due to his incredible world outlook and his emphasis on interfaith and intercultural relations. it is entirely false to claim that he supports the idea of a hashemite monarchy in iraq when if you actually read some of his interviews and articles you can see that he is only interested in playing a one-off role to conciliate all sides and establish the foundations of a democracy.

if phassan had become king hassan then i think that jordan would be in a lot better off then it is now.
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  #107  
Old 06-20-2004, 03:19 PM
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Thank you Alia. I am glad that as a Jordanian you give my views some credit. I sometimes think that the people I still hear from in Jordan must be a very small isolated group of people. I wonder if you read the discussions I had with two people in the Asian Royals Message Board ? There was someone called Gloria who seemed to share my views but these were quite empthatically attacked by these guys. I feel quite sorry for her as they were quite rude.
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  #108  
Old 06-21-2004, 05:15 PM
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As an American, I am finding all these posts from the Jordanian people interesting and informative. I have 2 questions to ask: 1)Queen Noor's book is inaccurate?? How so? and 2) Prince Hassan never made up bad rumors about Queen Noor?

I would appreciate any answers I can get. Thank you. :flower:
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  #109  
Old 07-01-2004, 08:24 PM
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if king hussein wanted hamzah to be king he would have to change the constitution - it only allows the king to chose the oldest son or a brother as crown prince - and under the current law there is no way hamzah could make abdullahs son his heir if he was to become king
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  #110  
Old 07-01-2004, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by stacy@Jul 1st, 2004 - 7:24 pm
if king hussein wanted hamzah to be king he would have to change the constitution - it only allows the king to chose the oldest son or a brother as crown prince - and under the current law there is no way hamzah could make abdullahs son his heir if he was to become king
But, stacy, why would Hamzah want to make KA's son his heir if Hamzah were king? I think Hamzah would want to keep succession in his branch of the family tree if he were king.
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  #111  
Old 07-01-2004, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by papillon+Jul 1st, 2004 - 7:33 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (papillon @ Jul 1st, 2004 - 7:33 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-stacy@Jul 1st, 2004 - 7:24 pm
if king hussein wanted hamzah to be king he would have to change the constitution - it only allows the king to chose the oldest son or a brother as crown prince - and under the current law there is no way hamzah could make abdullahs son his heir if he was to become king
But, stacy, why would Hamzah want to make KA&#39;s son his heir if Hamzah were king? I think Hamzah would want to keep succession in his branch of the family tree if he were king. [/b][/quote]
KA would probably want Hamzah to name P Hussein as his successor. If Hamzah had an issue with this, KA could use this as an excuse to strip the succession from Hamzah in favor of P Hussein. as far as I am concerned, CP means Crown Placeholder. If there is any truth to the stories of how Hamzah has treated his mother then he is not fit to be king. He is a hypocrite and an ungrateful son.
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  #112  
Old 07-01-2004, 08:49 PM
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i think he gets a long great with his mum like any son does and i think he couldn&#39;t care less bout becoming a king of Jordan...i mean what&#39;s the thrill.
Assassination attempts??
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  #113  
Old 07-01-2004, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by papillon+Jul 2nd, 2004 - 2:33 am--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (papillon &#064; Jul 2nd, 2004 - 2:33 am)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-stacy@Jul 1st, 2004 - 7:24 pm
if king hussein wanted hamzah to be king he would have to change the constitution - it only allows the king to chose the oldest son or a brother as crown prince - and under the current law there is no way hamzah could make abdullahs son his heir if he was to become king
But, stacy, why would Hamzah want to make KA&#39;s son his heir if Hamzah were king? I think Hamzah would want to keep succession in his branch of the family tree if he were king.[/b][/quote]
Agree - and I expect that KA will keep the succession in his as well and replace Hamzah with his own son sometime in the future - but it was suggested somewhere in this tread that KA would keep Hamzah as crown prince on the condition he made Prince Hussein his heir - which is not possible under the current constitution
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  #114  
Old 07-01-2004, 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by bluetortuga@Jul 1st, 2004 - 7:46 pm
KA would probably want Hamzah to name P Hussein as his successor. If Hamzah had an issue with this, KA could use this as an excuse to strip the succession from Hamzah in favor of P Hussein. as far as I am concerned, CP means Crown Placeholder. If there is any truth to the stories of how Hamzah has treated his mother then he is not fit to be king. He is a hypocrite and an ungrateful son.
But wouldn&#39;t any verbal or even written deals cut between KA and CP Hamzah about succession be nonbinding, just as any deathbed promises KA gave his father about succession lack any teeth?

Agree with your assessment about CP Hamzah. The pictures and the news stories speak volumes about his character. It&#39;s like KA and QR have brainwashed him, and he&#39;s lost his ability to think critically and independently. Let&#39;s hope P Noor knocks some sense into him.

Since CP Hamzah keeps worming his way into this thread, it seems like he is a big factor in the strains between QN and QR.
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  #115  
Old 07-01-2004, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by stacy@Jul 1st, 2004 - 7:50 pm
Agree - and I expect that KA will keep the succession in his as well and replace Hamzah with his own son sometime in the future - but it was suggested somewhere in this tread that KA would keep Hamzah as crown prince on the condition he made Prince Hussein his heir - which is not possible under the current constitution
Oh, okay. You&#39;re right, though. I just don&#39;t think that would ever pan out.
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  #116  
Old 07-01-2004, 09:24 PM
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King Hussein had ex CP Hassan CP for many years and he put as condition that he wanted 1st Ali to succeed Hassan and then Hamzah to succeed Hassan - so yeah KA could put that as a condition.. if the King can write that into the constitution - KA is the King he can do and ask whatever he wants..

Hamzah's been cited as a reason for strains between QN and other members of the royal family too.. bizarre isn't it..
I think once QN had her own kids - the stepkids were just that, the stepkids.. and from what I read in her book, it seems QN was close to Abeer.. but it seems she is apparently not close to P Haya and P Ali once they got a little older.. She surely has always had ambitions about her own son being and in her own book she seems to stress the special relationship between KH and CPHamzah..
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  #117  
Old 07-01-2004, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by QueenB@Jul 1st, 2004 - 8:24 pm
King Hussein had ex CP Hassan CP for many years and he put as condition that he wanted 1st Ali to succeed Hassan and then Hamzah to succeed Hassan - so yeah KA could put that as a condition.. if the King can write that into the constitution - KA is the King he can do and ask whatever he wants..
But then when the successor becomes king, wouldn&#39;t he just be able to undo it using the same methodologies? I just don&#39;t see how anything permanently binding could be worked out.
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  #118  
Old 07-01-2004, 09:35 PM
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I have no idea how any of that works... if the King has the power to write things into the constitution, etc... then obviously if that's his perogative - he'll do it... of course, it's too soon to know anything.... things change - 10 years ago if someone had said KA would be king - surely people would have said no way.. so between now and when/if Hamzah succeeds KA a lot can happen..

KA had been CP as a child.. he was replaced by ex CP Hassan because KH wanted to leave the country in 'adult' hands should anything have happened to him back then... I think that had to be written into the constitution because before (I don't know if this is accurate so I'm just guessing right now).. but I did read that the succession 'regulations' were the eldest son - and also there was something about the heir having to be of full Arab blood, obviously that was changed otherwise the only eligible heir would have been Ali...
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  #119  
Old 07-01-2004, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by QueenB@Jul 2nd, 2004 - 3:39 am
KA had been CP as a child.. he was replaced by ex CP Hassan because KH wanted to leave the country in &#39;adult&#39; hands should anything have happened to him back then... I think that had to be written into the constitution because before (I don&#39;t know if this is accurate so I&#39;m just guessing right now).. but I did read that the succession &#39;regulations&#39; were the eldest son - and also there was something about the heir having to be of full Arab blood, obviously that was changed otherwise the only eligible heir would have been Ali...
King Hussein changed the constitution from the eldest son to eldest son or a brother - to allow him to make PHassan CP - it says that the heir has to be born of muslim parents not necessarily arab
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  #120  
Old 07-28-2004, 11:03 AM
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Succession in Jordan at the time of King Hussein's Death: Why Was it Changed?

Shelley made what I thought was a good suggestion on another JRF thread, which was to discuss the underlying causes and influences of the succession change in Jordan at the time of KH&#39;s death.

What are the facts and theories? Anyone?
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