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View Poll Results: Do You Think King Hussein Made the "Right" Succession Decision?
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  #201  
Old 09-04-2004, 01:13 PM
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That darn sibling rivalry!
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  #202  
Old 09-04-2004, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sommone
That darn sibling rivalry!
So do you go along with my theory ? It gives an intersting twist to events !
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  #203  
Old 09-04-2004, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by shelley
So do you go along with my theory ? It gives an intersting twist to events !
Your theory does put a spin on things, Shelley...It is definitely one of many possibilities, and like you said, the Jordanian succession is a mystery. Sibling rivaly could have played a part, and it would be really petty if it had, but unfortunately we will never really know...The only thing we have to go by is the letter that the King wrote to his brother.
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  #204  
Old 09-04-2004, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by shelley
And so, is it not possible, that underneath his undoubted love and pride in a brother whom for years and years he regarded as the light of his life , his other half etc ( phrases he actually never used about a wife ) there could have also been a teensy weensy bit of pure old sibing jealousy ?
I've thought this, too, Shelley. It seems to me that KH's legacy would have been dimmed by having a successor who could have so easily and readily outshined him. In light of all the KH legacy spinning since his death (e.g., QN's memoirs and promotional tour), it seems to me that legacy was a big darned deal to him and the QN branch of his large family. P. Hassan, with his excellent education, his years of experience as C.P., his established relationships, etc., would have been able to hit the ground running at full speed, and he is also still young enough to have made a rather large and impressive mark. I think, in some ways, from KH's standpoint, P. Hassan was just too good to be true, accomplished, well connected and regarded, too clean in his dealings, upright, and solid as a human being and a family man. It had to be at least a little threatening to him, for if P. Hassan had become king and then cleaned up a lot of messes, built a truly modern Jordan, improved the economy and the living conditions of the Jordanian people, solved the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, held the extended family together, and continued to love his wife and children as he has, it would stand in stark contrast to anything KH had accomplished. In that sense, KA was the "safer" pick, for he is not so educated, brought little experience and preparation for the role with him, is young and unseasoned, and is having to learn on the job, all the while not really having the full respect of the wealthier nations. So, yes, I think this is a very viable theory, and utterly on topic here.

The real shame is that KH couldn't overcome his own insecurities and choose the best person for the job. I still say we'd all be better off.

And, gee, meow about the parenthetical winking phrase! (Sorry, Shelley, had to stick it to you after someone earlier this week doubted your ability to be catty!)
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  #205  
Old 09-04-2004, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by maryshawn
Good points all. Did you know that on the ride to the plane to Mayo after new succession had been announced, QR asked QN if there would be a coup against her husband and rioting? She was VERY worried about it.
I think she probably was justified in her worries.
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  #206  
Old 09-04-2004, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by shelley
This is Mr. Chalabi's version of events, and as everyone has some doubt on the veracity of most things Chalabi says, why do they chose to believe this item of information from his sources.
Ahmad Chalabi is a known liar. As the saying goes, do you know how to tell when he's lying? His lips are moving. :(
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  #207  
Old 09-05-2004, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by papillon
I've thought this, too, Shelley. It seems to me that KH's legacy would have been dimmed by having a successor who could have so easily and readily outshined him. In light of all the KH legacy spinning since his death (e.g., QN's memoirs and promotional tour), it seems to me that legacy was a big darned deal to him and the QN branch of his large family. P. Hassan, with his excellent education, his years of experience as C.P., his established relationships, etc., would have been able to hit the ground running at full speed, and he is also still young enough to have made a rather large and impressive mark. I think, in some ways, from KH's standpoint, P. Hassan was just too good to be true, accomplished, well connected and regarded, too clean in his dealings, upright, and solid as a human being and a family man. It had to be at least a little threatening to him, for if P. Hassan had become king and then cleaned up a lot of messes, built a truly modern Jordan, improved the economy and the living conditions of the Jordanian people, solved the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, held the extended family together, and continued to love his wife and children as he has, it would stand in stark contrast to anything KH had accomplished. In that sense, KA was the "safer" pick, for he is not so educated, brought little experience and preparation for the role with him, is young and unseasoned, and is having to learn on the job, all the while not really having the full respect of the wealthier nations. So, yes, I think this is a very viable theory, and utterly on topic here.

The real shame is that KH couldn't overcome his own insecurities and choose the best person for the job. I still say we'd all be better off.

And, gee, meow about the parenthetical winking phrase! (Sorry, Shelley, had to stick it to you after someone earlier this week doubted your ability to be catty!)
One should not forget Shelly that King Hussein loved Jordan and it's people dearly and so I very much doubt that he would let his jealousy(if there was any) have a major affect on his country. I do agree with you though that Prince Hassan would have made a great King just like his late brother.
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  #208  
Old 09-05-2004, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by tania
One should not forget Shelly that King Hussein loved Jordan and it's people dearly and so I very much doubt that he would let his jealousy(if there was any) have a major affect on his country. I do agree with you though that Prince Hassan would have made a great King just like his late brother.
Well, people are complicated and not always 100% logical, rational beings. I think it's possible for KH to have loved Jordan and his people and still felt insecure vis-a-vis his brother.
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  #209  
Old 09-06-2004, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by papillon
Well, people are complicated and not always 100% logical, rational beings. I think it's possible for KH to have loved Jordan and his people and still felt insecure vis-a-vis his brother.
I do not think it was the jealousy, else why it worked only at the last days? king hussain was able to change the crown prince at any time during the long period in which prince hassan was the crown prince. king Hussain leads jordan for nearly 50 years in very difficult period in the arab world history, if he was not logical and if was acting according to his emotions he won't be the successful king that he was.
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  #210  
Old 09-06-2004, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Safaa Batin
I do not think it was the jealousy, else why it worked only at the last days? king hussain was able to change the crown prince at any time during the long period in which prince hassan was the crown prince. king Hussain leads jordan for nearly 50 years in very difficult period in the arab world history, if he was not logical and if was acting according to his emotions he won't be the successful king that he was.
I didn't say it pure and simple jealousy. I agree that the late king led Jordan for many tricky years, and for at least two thirds of them, ably assisted and supported by his brother, who basically he loved deeply, certainly more than any son except perhaps Hamzah when he came along. Which is why for when people would bring up the succession issue he brushed them off harshly, even as late as August 1998. But he was a very ill man for the last few months of his life. And he was human. If anyone knew that occasionally there were even slightly ambvialant emotions towards his brother as he faced up to his own mortality, this was the time to exploit it, as people under the sort of treatment he was undergoing are very vulnerable, and it is known that they can end up beling hostile towards the people they love the most. This is an accepted medcial fact of chemotherapy. And the conflicting messages of that final letter bear out this ambivalance clearly, at least as far as I can see. I know for many Jordanians, their king was a larger than life hero, and rightly so for many reasons, but as I keep saying, he was man, not a plaster saint, and even the best of men have their Achilles heel.
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  #211  
Old 09-06-2004, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by shelley
I know for many Jordanians, their king was a larger than life hero, and rightly so for many reasons, but as I keep saying, he was man, not a plaster saint, and even the best of men have their Achilles heel.
This is the part that is difficult for me to understand, since I come from a country where the leaders are routinely ousted. Even the good ones are criticized and recognized as human and, thus, fallible. I don't know whether it's a good thing to place anyone on such a high pedestal, though I guess I can see why, if this is the only leader many people have ever known, he would seem like a god of sorts.

Maybe, with age, I have just lost my ability to find perfect heroes and heroines in our midst. Seems to me most people are both sinner and saint, though the best ones lean toward the latter.
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  #212  
Old 09-06-2004, 08:22 PM
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Shelley,

Why DIDN'T Princess Muna stress the need to study/learn Arabic at an early age? Abdullah was the eldest son, clearly a possibility for the throne......I don't understand why--and this is unfair as I am saying it's Muna's responsbility--King Hussein and Princess Muna didn't realize the importance of this for the eldest son of a ruler of an Arabic country.......

Thank you,

Mary Shawn




Quote:
Originally Posted by shelley
I think it was too much of a contrast to hear Hassan's voice in excellent Arabic, and sounding very much like his brother as well. The king after much hard work can now read a prepared speech in Arabic fairly competently, but cannot speak off the cuff or take question and answers in Arabic, so the diffference would de too obvious. Crown prince Hamzah, who can speak Arabic, is also not heard live. I think they had to allow press coverage, because there was much agitation amongst the public that there was nothing about Hassan's activities in local papers but there is still nothing on radio and television. Why not pictures ? It had to fit into the myth that this was a traitor whose picture should not be allowed up. In Jerash apparantly they hung a huge portait of Hassan strung up along the main road. It was taken down about ten times and ten times the people of Jerash put it up again in slightly different spot until I suppose they finally got the message !
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  #213  
Old 09-06-2004, 08:31 PM
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Gossip

Interesting observation by Leslie Bennetts in an article on QN and KH. Gossiping and saying bad things about the King is punishable by imprisonment or death. Thus, many criticize the King by using the Queen as the focal point.....nice role for the Queen to be in.......always the scapegoat. And, no, I'm not fond of Rania who must spend an inordinate amount of time adding to her couture wardrobe. When she first became Queen, an article observed she wore a simple outfit with just a plain gold wedding band. "She was well brought up; she is not ostentatious at all," said a family member. If Rania's not ostentatious, then what is???????



Quote:
Originally Posted by papillon
Shelley's definitely an expert at this. However, I can say that I spent some time in Jordan last summer, and I did hear locals grumble a bit about QR. Since it is an imprisonable offense to criticize the JRF in Jordan, I didn't attempt to ascertain the nature of their beefs against her. Just noted them with interest.

I, too, find QR's spending habits vulgar and her dismissiveness of criticism immature, self aggrandizing, and not terribly respectful of others. I guess the latter is just her way of not having to listen seriously to anything she finds disagreeable. Maybe if she did listen and care more, she would learn something and grow and evolve as a human being.
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  #214  
Old 09-06-2004, 08:37 PM
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One last word about the letter. I had to re-read it a few times. I agree with Shelley. He was sick. The cancer was consuming him, as well as the chemicals......it was rambling, unclear at times......it just always struck me as NOT the kind of letter the healthy KH would have written.
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  #215  
Old 09-06-2004, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by maryshawn
Interesting observation by Leslie Bennetts in an article on QN and KH. Gossiping and saying bad things about the King is punishable by imprisonment or death. Thus, many criticize the King by using the Queen as the focal point.....nice role for the Queen to be in.......always the scapegoat.
Well, I think the same law covers all members of the JRF, not just the king, though it might be perceived as a more serious offense if the criticism involves the king.

Anyway, I heard unsolicited gripes about KA last summer, too. One young woman who worked in a retail store sidled up to me and asked what I thought of him. I was quite surprised, but said something truly benign, even though I DO have my opinions. She said she thought he was too inexperienced, wanted to give him time, but thought a mistake had been made. Shocked the heck out of me. . .would've loved to have poked and probed at that a bit, but not at the expense of my freedom or my life. But she did make me pause and wonder how prevalent her view might be and why she would risk her own freedom to cozy up to a stranger and spout off like that. She must have felt it strongly.
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  #216  
Old 09-07-2004, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by maryshawn
Shelley,

Why DIDN'T Princess Muna stress the need to study/learn Arabic at an early age? Abdullah was the eldest son, clearly a possibility for the throne......I don't understand why--and this is unfair as I am saying it's Muna's responsbility--King Hussein and Princess Muna didn't realize the importance of this for the eldest son of a ruler of an Arabic country.......

Thank you,

Mary Shawn
Abdullah and his brother Feisal were only 7 and 8 when they went to boarding school, and didn't return to Jordan to live until they were grown men. I don't know why neither the king or P. Muna made much of an effort with their children, maybe because it was never an option that A. would be king !!? By contrast, P. Hassan's children , the girls and P. Rashid, were always accompanied by a tutor when they went to boarding school ( as P. Hassan himself was throughout boarding school and indeed university), even though they went at an older age. I believe that the late king then availed himself of this facility and the tutors were also asked to teach P. Haya and P. Hamzah.
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  #217  
Old 09-07-2004, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelley
I didn't say it pure and simple jealousy. I agree that the late king led Jordan for many tricky years, and for at least two thirds of them, ably assisted and supported by his brother, who basically he loved deeply, certainly more than any son except perhaps Hamzah when he came along. Which is why for when people would bring up the succession issue he brushed them off harshly, even as late as August 1998. But he was a very ill man for the last few months of his life. And he was human. If anyone knew that occasionally there were even slightly ambvialant emotions towards his brother as he faced up to his own mortality, this was the time to exploit it, as people under the sort of treatment he was undergoing are very vulnerable, and it is known that they can end up beling hostile towards the people they love the most. This is an accepted medcial fact of chemotherapy. And the conflicting messages of that final letter bear out this ambivalance clearly, at least as far as I can see. I know for many Jordanians, their king was a larger than life hero, and rightly so for many reasons, but as I keep saying, he was man, not a plaster saint, and even the best of men have their Achilles heel.
I agree that through illness emotions have a big role, as if it was pure logical there were no choice better than prince hassan to be the new king. But i am still not convinced by the jealousy theory , may be it was emotions toward sons, he preferes to have his son as the coming king not his brother,may be queen Noor had an influence in order to give prince hamza the chance to be a king, may be other political reasons was there , but also I can't imagin that there were no Ameican hands to change prince hassan.
At the end may be many reasons both emotional and logical get together and make King Hussain take that decision. But we have to remember that this decision was unliked by most jordanians especially at the beginning, for sure K.hussain was aware of that, so if he was jealous and didnt want his brother to overshine him and want to keep his good image, he already lose credits in the people hearts and spoiled that image when he change the crown prince, so the main reason can not be how people will see him better or worse than p. hassan, i am sure there was a more serious reason.
Knowing that he was a man and not saint, and to many jordanians too he was not a life hero , and along his life he had his mistakes, but that does not change the fact that he was a very successful king wether we agreed or disagreed with him.
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  #218  
Old 09-07-2004, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Safaa Batin
so the main reason can not be how people will see him better or worse than p. hassan, i am sure there was a more serious reason.
Knowing that he was a man and not saint, and to many jordanians too he was not a life hero , and along his life he had his mistakes, but that does not change the fact that he was a very successful king wether we agreed or disagreed with him.
I agree with everything you say. And I think that the jealousy factor was only a teensy weensy bit of the whole issue - what I think is that during his last illness, people who did not want to see P. Hassan as king, different people, for different reasons, perhaps, made common cause and worked on this angle to make the lies and insinuations about P. Hassan hit home. As I say, a dying man, and now we know that despite all the reassurances that we were given, he was a dying man when he came home, is especially vulnerable, and there are ways that things can be presented and slanted by people who know which buttons to press. It has to be people who knew him very well. I am sure there were plenty who said the same sort of thing when the king was well - in fact I know for a fact that they tried - but the basic affection and trust that the two brothers shared over-rode all these attempts. But if there was this even 2% of human frailty ( which even exists between fathers and sons ) it could be blown up or damped down. And there is no doubt that people like Battikhi and Ka'abneh exploited it for all it is worth. That they had plenty to hide is now clear. And other got onto the band wagon as well. I think what was done was despicable to a dying man. P. Hassan is well and has made his life again. The late king went to his grave probably heart-broken and greatly confused by everything that he was told. Do you remember what he told the PM and parliament about P. Hassan on the 9th January ? And then he was being buried on the 9th February. I would give my eyeteeth to know what was said and done to make him write that letter - especially after he and P. Hassan had such a warm and loving reunion.....perhaps too warm and loving for some, as it meant that all the scheming and lies back and forth from Mayo hadn't really worked. :( :( And of course K. Hussein was a hugely successful king. But that doesn't mean that P. Hassan could not have been an equally good one, perhaps in another way for another time. But you are not disagreeing with me about that as such. It is all so sad, especially for Jordan who needs and still misses this man's input.
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  #219  
Old 09-07-2004, 01:19 PM
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absolutly agree shelley.
but what was told to parliament in 9 january, do you mean that known letter or something else, i do not remember the date. But that letter did not have a lot of datails and that what made and still make people not sure of the exact reason.
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  #220  
Old 09-07-2004, 02:01 PM
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What I so admire about Prince Hassan, and I am sure so many people feel the same, is the way he behaved so honourably after what happened. He was a true prince. Not once has he come out and said anything about his late brother or the present king. I remember seeing an interview with him once and when they asked him about King Abdullah he answered a long the lines of what do you want me to tell you, he is my King and my nephew. In this day and age, I think you will seldom find people of that calibre.
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