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  #161  
Old 09-27-2010, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by NoorMeansLight View Post
No, I don't believe any of these, I just wrote what has been reported again and again ('I've read', 'appeared to many people') over the years. What I believe is that this is a very complicated, yet fascinating, family and that it is more than certain that none of us will ever find out the whole truth about their relationships.
sorry, but with the second part of your comment you made very clear that you were believing what "you have read" about PHassan
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  #162  
Old 09-27-2010, 05:48 PM
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I do believe that QN acted smart back then, because there were two major 'opponents', if you want. Abdullah and Hassan. The latter has been accused of the things I described above. Note this, I've also read that K.Hussein himself believed that his brother had acted this way. I don't know the truth, none of us does I suppose. Hence I don't believe and don't want to believe anything concerning Hassan's case - I don't have an opinion, in other words.
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  #163  
Old 09-27-2010, 05:54 PM
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I do believe that QN acted smart back then, because there were two major 'opponents', if you want. Abdullah and Hassan. The latter has been accused of the things I described above. Note this, I've also read that K.Hussein himself believed that his brother had acted this way. I don't know the truth, none of us does I suppose. Hence I don't believe and don't want to believe anything concerning Hassan's case - I don't have an opinion, in other words.
And you cannot imagine that she would have been treated in another way if she would have shown another, less ambitious attitude herself (at an expense of others)? What goes around comes around.
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  #164  
Old 09-27-2010, 06:00 PM
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Was it really ambition, Veram?
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  #165  
Old 09-27-2010, 06:04 PM
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Was it really ambition, Veram?
Of course, it was. Ambitions for yourself (or your kids) is not something negative as such, but it should not be at the expense of others.
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  #166  
Old 09-27-2010, 06:12 PM
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I see your point. It seems more like a matter of survival to me. Sounds a bit primitive, I know. Well, no matter how we see things, it's always a pleasure to discuss with people like you. Good night! :)
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  #167  
Old 09-27-2010, 06:58 PM
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Sorry, if I cannot share your opinion. IMO she has to blame a lot herself for her treatment after KHussein's death. There is nothing wrong with a mother who is ambitious for her own kids, but it isn't right to try to deprive others of what is rightfully theirs. Noor was the fourth wife, but just because KHussein's other marriages failed or ended with the death of the wife, the children of those marriages were not somehow erased or demoted. IMO Queen Noor behaved if she was the 'true' wife and her husband's past relations (and his other children's claims on him) were not as legitimate as those of herself and her own children. That some of these other kids took offence is not surprising.
A fourth son like Hamzah is certainly not the expected heir to a throne if the constitution of the respecting country formulates the succession question in the following way:

Article 28 of the Jordanian constitution:
(a) The Royal title shall pass from the holder of the Throne to his eldest son, and to the eldest son of that son and in linear succession by a similar process thereafter. Should the eldest son die before the Throne devolves upon him, his eldest son shall inherit the Throne despite the existence of brothers to the deceased son. The King may, *As amended in the Official Gazette No. 1831 of 01/04/1965. however, select one of his brothers as heir apparent. In this event, title to the Throne shall pass to him from the holder of the Throne.
(b) Should the person entitled to the Throne die wlthout a male heir, the Throne shall pass to his eldest brother. In the event that the holder of the Throne has no brothers, the Throne shall pass to the eldest son of his eldest brother. Should his eldest brother have no son, the Throne shall pass to the eldest son of his other brothers according to their seniority in age.

*In the early 1960s there were several attempts on KHussein's life, and the king and his advisors feared that after his premature death the Hashemite monarchy would not survive if the new king (Abdullah, born in 1962) would be a toddler. Thus, when Hussein's younger brother Hassan turned 18 in 1965, the constitution was amended.
This amendment has always been seen as an emergency solution for difficult times. What said Hussein himself in his last letter to Hassan (when he dismissed him)? "I must refer to the original constitutional rule, where I find that all conditions that originally dictated the exception have passed, and that therefore, HRH Prince Abdullah would, in such case, immediately assume all duties and responsibilities as the crown prince."

Good night, Noor
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  #168  
Old 09-27-2010, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Veram98 View Post
Noor was the fourth wife, but just because KHussein's other marriages failed or ended with the death of the wife, the children of those marriages were not somehow erased or demoted.
Very true.

Let's not forget that King Abdullah was the rightful CP for the first three years of his life. The position was only given to Prince Hassan as a security measure and I doubt King Hussein meant this situation to be permanent.

When a monarch has children from more than one wife it can complicate things but not when the letter and spirit of the law are upheld. The Sultan of Brunei has married three times, granted his second and third marriages ended in divorce, there was never any doubt as to who was his heir, it was and has always been his eldest son from his first wife and Queen.

No one doubts that Queen Noor was a very good and dutiful wife to the late king but she did act like King Hussein's children with this first 3 wives were suddenly not so important because her own had entered the picture. I'm sure she was very nice and friendly with all of them but that's no compensation for taking away one son's rights and handing them over to another. Perhaps if Queen Noor had demonstrated a less assertive and more prudent side, she wouldn't be in this situation.
Contrast her plight with Princess Muna who pretty much accepted her lot and was never bitter and you can see the difference.

King Hussein was a great leader but the fact that during his last days he got caught up in dynastic machinations was unfortunate. He is also partly to blame for playing favourites with his children and letting his wife influence something as important as the succession. None of his other wives displayed such assertiveness. It is also sad because the last couple of months when he was gravely ill should've been a peaceful time for him but instead he had to put up with a feud between his wife and brother.
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  #169  
Old 09-28-2010, 09:13 AM
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Sorry, if I cannot share your opinion. IMO she has to blame a lot herself for her treatment after KHussein's death. There is nothing wrong with a mother who is ambitious for her own kids, but it isn't right to try to deprive others of what is rightfully theirs. Noor was the fourth wife, but just because KHussein's other marriages failed or ended with the death of the wife, the children of those marriages were not somehow erased or demoted. IMO Queen Noor behaved if she was the 'true' wife and her husband's past relations (and his other children's claims on him) were not as legitimate as those of herself and her own children. That some of these other kids took offence is not surprising.
A fourth son like Hamzah is certainly not the expected heir to a throne if the constitution of the respecting country formulates the succession question in the following way
Excellent post Veram98! I completely agree with you. IMO Noor had a very misplaced sense of entitlement which was on display long before King Hussein died.

The stories she planted about Hassan and Sarvath demonstrated what a calculating and manipulative woman she can be IMO.
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  #170  
Old 09-28-2010, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Veram98 View Post
Sorry, if I cannot share your opinion. IMO she has to blame a lot herself for her treatment after KHussein's death. There is nothing wrong with a mother who is ambitious for her own kids, but it isn't right to try to deprive others of what is rightfully theirs. Noor was the fourth wife, but just because KHussein's other marriages failed or ended with the death of the wife, the children of those marriages were not somehow erased or demoted. IMO Queen Noor behaved if she was the 'true' wife and her husband's past relations (and his other children's claims on him) were not as legitimate as those of herself and her own children. That some of these other kids took offence is not surprising.
A fourth son like Hamzah is certainly not the expected heir to a throne if the constitution of the respecting country formulates the succession question in the following way:

Article 28 of the Jordanian constitution:
(a) The Royal title shall pass from the holder of the Throne to his eldest son, and to the eldest son of that son and in linear succession by a similar process thereafter. Should the eldest son die before the Throne devolves upon him, his eldest son shall inherit the Throne despite the existence of brothers to the deceased son. The King may, *As amended in the Official Gazette No. 1831 of 01/04/1965. however, select one of his brothers as heir apparent. In this event, title to the Throne shall pass to him from the holder of the Throne.
(b) Should the person entitled to the Throne die wlthout a male heir, the Throne shall pass to his eldest brother. In the event that the holder of the Throne has no brothers, the Throne shall pass to the eldest son of his eldest brother. Should his eldest brother have no son, the Throne shall pass to the eldest son of his other brothers according to their seniority in age.

*In the early 1960s there were several attempts on KHussein's life, and the king and his advisors feared that after his premature death the Hashemite monarchy would not survive if the new king (Abdullah, born in 1962) would be a toddler. Thus, when Hussein's younger brother Hassan turned 18 in 1965, the constitution was amended.
This amendment has always been seen as an emergency solution for difficult times. What said Hussein himself in his last letter to Hassan (when he dismissed him)? "I must refer to the original constitutional rule, where I find that all conditions that originally dictated the exception have passed, and that therefore, HRH Prince Abdullah would, in such case, immediately assume all duties and responsibilities as the crown prince."

Good night, Noor
Excellent post veram89 .. Personally, I think naming of P.Hamzah as crown prince was a mistake because KA was not obliged to do so as his father was in the past.
What happened and what will happen in Queen Noor`s relationship with KH`s children is very normal IMO. I do not expect anything better.
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  #171  
Old 09-29-2010, 03:01 AM
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Whether Queen Noor was ambitious for Hamzah or not, it does not detract from the fact that Hassan had tried to take Hussein's place commanding the army whilst Hussein lay ill. This was reported directly back to Hussein by the senior army officers involved and Sarvath was already planning on redecorating King Hussein's office - that is why Hussein turned against his brother and sister-in-law because of their sense of entitlement and they were making plans to take over before Hussein had even breathed his last breath. I know Sarvath personally and have had dealings with her away from the cameras and without saying anything derogatory she is.............

The stories about this time were not planted by Noor, they were reported directly back to King Hussein by his palace staff, his army generals/senior officers, the Prime Minister and others who were loyal to the death to Hussein and none of whom were all that fond of Noor. For many people in Jordan, myself included who loved the King like a father, we only cared about the King and to be frank, Hussein also knew that Hassan and Sarvath have never been popular in Jordan. Hassan was pelted with eggs and tomatoes in Ma'an.

The King was too incapacitated by his illness to sort out the succession properly and if he had been well enough for a few more months, things would not have been rushed through and perhaps things would have been different. If anyone doubts how Hussein felt then look at the letter he wrote to Hassan and allowed to be put into the public domain whilst he was still alive and lucid.

It was not only Noor and her kids who were 'offended'[ by what was taking place but King Hussein's other children who were appalled at what was going on in addition to the government cabinet, the army and the King's palace staff. Hussein wanted there to be a family council to decide the succession but as Hassan had behaved in a way that did not mirror King Hussein's views on the succession procedure, only then was Abdullah appointed.
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  #172  
Old 09-29-2010, 03:30 AM
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Whether Queen Noor was ambitious for Hamzah or not, it does not detract from the fact that Hassan had tried to take Hussein's place commanding the army whilst Hussein lay ill. This was reported directly back to Hussein by the senior army officers involved and Sarvath was already planning on redecorating King Hussein's office - that is why Hussein turned against his brother and sister-in-law because of their sense of entitlement and they were making plans to take over before Hussein had even breathed his last breath. I know Sarvath personally and have had dealings with her and without saying anything derogatory she is.............
This is exactly what newspapers published 2 or 3 weeks before King Hussein`s famous decision , but that does not deny that King Hussein always wanted to be succeeded by one of his sons and not his brother. Prince Hassan was crown prince for more than 30 years, I do not think he expected the change, perhaps that it why he acted as if he were the king because his brother was ill and near to death. Queen Noor wanted her son as heir to the throne instead of then-Crown Prince Hassan and her husband`s eldest son p.Abdullah.
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  #173  
Old 09-29-2010, 04:12 AM
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This is exactly what newspapers published 2 or 3 weeks before King Hussein`s famous decision , but that does not deny that King Hussein always wanted to be succeeded by one of his sons and not his brother. Prince Hassan was crown prince for more than 30 years, I do not think he expected the change, perhaps that it why he acted as if he were the king because his brother was ill and near to death. Queen Noor wanted her son as heir to the throne instead of then-Crown Prince Hassan and her husband`s eldest son p.Abdullah.

Yes he was over confident and thought Hussein totally relied on him, I am just pointing out that if a family council had gone ahead, Abdullah might not have been chosen as he wasn't a natural candidate unless one goes by birth order. It is quite possible that one of the other sons may have been chosen and yes, the King can change the constitution. He is the king after all. The fact that Hussein wanted such a family council in the first place suggests that Abdullah wasn't his natural first choice as successor anyway or he would have named Abdullah as CP when he attained his majority age. Any woman would want the best for her kids. I can't blame Noor for that. Muna stayed quiet as she might have lost access to her children otherwise as Dina did with Princess Alia. Muna is very discreet as a person and I like her a lot but that is not to say she would not have come out fighting like a lion for her sons rights if she had been in the same position as Noor.

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This is exactly what newspapers published 2 or 3 weeks before King Hussein`s famous decision , but that does not deny that King Hussein always wanted to be succeeded by one of his sons and not his brother. Prince Hassan was crown prince for more than 30 years, I do not think he expected the change, perhaps that it why he acted as if he were the king because his brother was ill and near to death. Queen Noor wanted her son as heir to the throne instead of then-Crown Prince Hassan and her husband`s eldest son p.Abdullah.
It was common knowledge Rossina. Jordan is a tiny place and people talk and if you have family with links with the palace, you know what goes on. The army generals involved did not have a problem with Hassan until he started trying to take over. Sarvath was not very discreet at that time either. The Prime Minister and the others were having urgent meetings to discuss the situation before going in to see Hussein and they knew they risked the King's wrath as they were criticizing his brother but they were prepared to take that risk. Sarvath had been overheard at parties saying things too so she condemned herself from her own mouth. I a not saying Noor is a saint but Hassan and Sarvath were the architects of their own downfall not anybody else.
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Old 09-29-2010, 05:10 AM
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There is no doubt that King Hussein was a very intelligent politician that he was able to manage all these family conflicts brilliantly.I believe he always knows what he wants.He satisfied his wife by focusing people`s and press attention on p.Hamza as a future heir to the throne , and then appointed his eldest son Abdullah as his heir. Poor Queen Noor, has disappointed twice. I think this reason is enough to worsen her relationship with KA or to not like living in Jordan or back home. For Queen Alia`s children, it is natural that their relationship with QN is not good, they are the only ones who actually lived with her as her children.
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  #175  
Old 09-29-2010, 07:06 AM
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Noor was and is committed to Jordan but it was made clear that she would have to get out of the way with the new succession. They wanted a clear space to establish themselves in and Noor left for merica to give them that. I think though it says a lot that Abdullah was never groomed to be CP or king even though he had long since become an adult and capable. This alone suggests that King Hussein did not neccessarily want him as successor but perhaps in the circumstances and considering the youth of the others, Ali included, it was the only option he had at the time.

Some people are too quick to slander Noor but it can't have been easy marrying a three times married man and taking on 7 step children and then having four more of your own. Noor was a good queen for Jordan and raised it's profile enormously in the Western world, a legacy that Rania and Abdullah are enjoying the fruits of now.
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  #176  
Old 10-03-2010, 02:21 PM
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I think the members of the Jordanian family have done quite well considering how blended it is. I have a copy of Noor's Leap of Faith which I enjoyed reading. Noor mentions what a special relationship that Hussein and Hamzah had and strongly implies he wanted Hamzah to succeed him. In the end, it has worked out for the best. Abdullah and Noor seem like committed partners that are working hard to draw attention to Jordan and make it a tourist destination. Hamzah I feel is just too shy for the position as monarch and the fact he was willing to enter an arranged marriage that ultimately failed perhaps shows he isn't the progressive King that Jordan needs. But I do think that they respect each other which is a credit to King Hussein. I think Noor for many years may have struggled with the concept of the commual living which is a tradition in Arab society.
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:16 AM
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Hamzah is traditional in many respects and has great personal respect for the traditions of his country. Hamzah is at least able to speak Arabic with the people and people like him as he has many qualities that his father had.
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:37 AM
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Hamzah is traditional in many respects and has great personal respect for the traditions of his country. Hamzah is at least able to speak Arabic with the people and people like him as he has many qualities that his father had.
But, unfortunately,he is not the eldest son of the king to inherit the throne... also he is better than his brothers in Arabic but not fluent.
I think speaking fluent arabic or not is not a sufficient reason to know who is best ruler among KH`s sons.
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  #179  
Old 10-04-2010, 09:39 AM
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since you are talking about HM Queen Noor, Any idea why Jerash festival -which she created and sponsored was canceled?
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  #180  
Old 10-04-2010, 09:46 AM
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since you are talking about HM Queen Noor, Any idea why Jerash festival -which she created and sponsored was canceled?
Jerash Festival has been canceled for financial reasons, because it does not bring enough profit to cover its expenses.
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