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  #61  
Old 07-04-2004, 02:54 PM
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Queen Noor said that the children were having problems with their father too. They may have had some problems with her, but they were fighting with their father. I wouldn't compare the situation with that of Jackie O since the two are very different.

I agree that KH's having children with multiple wives created many problems with the family but I don't think that his children blame QNoor alone for their problems.

Princess Alia was in her twenties when these problems were occuring so I doubt that she was involved at all.

I'm a little confused here. Is anyone sure that P Hamzah and P Hashim have been treating their mother badly? How did we find out that she was sitting away form the bridal party at the reception?
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Old 07-04-2004, 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by Akilah@Jul 1st, 2004 - 2:41 pm
Some person speculate this was some sign of a rift between Hamazh and Queen Noor. It is uttered that Hamazh is looking to secure his position as Crown Prince by isolating his mother.
But could it actually be the opposite, a deliberate strategy? Is it possible that Queen Noor is well aware of her unpopularity and she herself decided, for the benefit of her son and his need to distance himself from his American roots, that she remain more in the background now and in the future?

In other words, the choice to sit at another table might have been her own choice. She was right next to him in the receiving line in the photos I have and right next to Abdullah and Rania as mother of the bride in some of the group photos. It wasn't like she wasn't invited or had to sit in the kitchen with the help!
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  #63  
Old 07-04-2004, 05:34 PM
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Sorry,i don't understund what about you are talking!
What happened at Hamza's wedding?and how he didn't treat his mother QN good? :o And how do you know that?
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  #64  
Old 07-04-2004, 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by Gobsmacked@Jul 4th, 2004 - 11:16 pm
Is it possible that Queen Noor is well aware of her unpopularity
Queen Noor unpopular? By whom?
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  #65  
Old 07-05-2004, 09:05 PM
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Does anyone think that Rania and Noor's relationship is beyond the point of repair? Ideally the two Queens would get along and also help Hamzah's new wife Noor with the challenges ahead for herself as the Crown Princess. And Noor and Rania would work together to create better initiatives and programs to improve the lives of Jordanians. Of course all this would be true in a perfect world! But does anyone believe that there could come a time when Noor would be "permitted" to spend more time in Jordan (and with Hamzah) and allow her daughters to spend more time there as well, and co-exist peacefully and somewhat happily with Rania? I think that if Hamzah is intent on pursuing his ultimate goal to become King of Jordan one day, he could use his mother's guidance and support. She, afterall, was a first hand witness to King Hussein's successful and popular reign. I'm sure that Noor could provide Hamzah with numerous insights and advice on how to best achieve his goal and how to best help the Jordanian people.
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  #66  
Old 07-07-2004, 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by Banadoora@Jul 4th, 2004 - 1:54 pm
Queen Noor said that the children were having problems with their father too.  They may have had some problems with her, but they were fighting with their father. 
What kinds of problems were they having with their father?
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  #67  
Old 07-11-2004, 12:38 AM
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Blue Tortuga is right. Even a very politically correct journalist who reports for a parisian newspaper but is based in the ME said it is a world full of gossip and innuendo. If the gossip could be cashed in it would be worth more than the price of oil. She indicated life for QN "was very hard and there might have been those who were resentful." She carefully phrased her words but went on to speculate many of the problems can be traced to 4 wives, 12 children, siblings, and courtiers who enjoy stirring up trouble between all of them. So, sorry, sad but true.
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  #68  
Old 07-12-2004, 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by Genevieve@Jul 5th, 2004 - 8:05 pm
Does anyone think that Rania and Noor's relationship is beyond the point of repair?
Well, theoretically, it's probably not beyond the point of repair. But, realistically, I think there has probably been so much damage done between the two that it would be hard to carry on in the ways some of us would like to see. I noticed in today's online edition of the "Jordan Times" that QN has handed off her foundation's Jordan Design and Trade Centre operations to independent women's groups. It's being positioned in the article as a great success, but when I was there last summer, even the employees at the Amman, Madaba, and Aqaba stores were lamenting the lack of sales and the poor marketing. I sense it's just another way of minimizing QN's responsibilities and status in Jordan. And check out this article. It seems QN is not even spending her summer in Jordan working on her projects and planning the Jerash Festival, as she did last year. It's all so sad.

http://www.aspentimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar.../107060005&rs=3

Thought I'd begin a new thread about the relationship strains between QN and C. P. Hamzah, which many of us have noticed and commented upon. Do you think they are primarily a consequence of the strange succession situation in which C. P. Hamzah finds himself, or were the seeds for this sown long before? QN has been quoted in the mainstream media as saying she was not the most attentive parent because she placed her role as KH's marital and political partner above all others, leaving childrearing largely in the hands of extended family members and paid caregivers. Is it possible relations between this mother and son have less to do with C. P. Hamzah's perceived need to show greater loyalty to KA and are more likely the result of the son's perception of weakness(es)/failure(s) in parenting? In other words, would these two have grown apart even if succession were not at stake?
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Old 07-13-2004, 04:52 PM
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I am not sure what the strange succession situation would be, Hamzah has been prepared to be King since he was born. He inheretied a lot of his father's personality, and focus so it has been known that he would always be King. In Jordan succession is not as it is in other countries, the King does indeed get to basically choose his successor. For YEARS KH's Crown Prince was his brother, until not long before he died. KA has always known it was his father's wish that CPH eventually be King. So I don't see a problem there.

I think in public Noor has a strange relationship to the current royal family (KA, QR), not her son. KA and Noor have not always been the closest so in a lot of large family events when he (rightfully) takes centerstage, I think she tends to fade to the back. But I think things between CPH and Noor are fine, in her book she speaks VERY lovingly of her child. And not of having regrets at how they were raised.
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Old 07-17-2004, 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by Banadoora@Feb 23rd, 2004 - 3:13 pm
It's been rumoured that P Sarvath and P Hassan were spreading very bad rumours about Q Noor and her kids. I don't know how true that is, and which rumours these were. There was one rumour in particular, that went around early on in Q Noor's marriage to K Hussein, that she was a CIA agent. I get the impression, from everything that I've read, that she blames P Hassan and P Sarvath for starting it.

But I don't know, I'm reading rumours about rumours. I'm not sure how true they are.
In a Vanity Fair article posted in 1991, during Gulf War or around that time, it was already said by Dominick Dunne, a respected journalist, there was a tense relationship between QN and a "sister in law and ex sister in law." Learning more, Sarvath considered herself Queen in waiting and a great intellectual and though Noor was just a fluffy, bejewelled sub for Queen Alia. She did not go out of her way to make QN comfortable or teach her the ropes, as it were.

Tensions got out of control when Princess Sarvath redecorated KH's offices while he was at Mayo. He heard about it and was very, very angry. She did not visit him and a palace official was quoted as saying "they acted as if they knew the king was dying and didn't care." Another insider said "there was indisbutably a campaign against QN. She was rumored to have a child out of wedlock, jewish by birth, a spy for the CIA and all her kids were on drugs." King Hussein mentioned this in his final letter changing succession saying "I attributed these rumors to those who pretended to be faithful to you......QN is a Jordanian in every sense and has hid her tears behind smiles." And then it was adieu to Sarvath and her husband, which was deserved, in my humble opinion as they showed themselves to be petty, self-serving liars who--even if they didn't start the rumors--had the power to shut them down FAST. And they could've treated the King's illness with more compassion. They are both pompous boors---said one official--and I think that pretty much sums them up.
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  #71  
Old 07-17-2004, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by maryshawn
In a Vanity Fair article posted in 1991, during Gulf War or around that time, it was already said by Dominick Dunne, a respected journalist, there was a tense relationship between QN and a "sister in law and ex sister in law." Learning more, Sarvath considered herself Queen in waiting and a great intellectual and though Noor was just a fluffy, bejewelled sub for Queen Alia. She did not go out of her way to make QN comfortable or teach her the ropes, as it were.

Tensions got out of control when Princess Sarvath redecorated KH's offices while he was at Mayo. He heard about it and was very, very angry. She did not visit him and a palace official was quoted as saying "they acted as if they knew the king was dying and didn't care."
With reference to the now well worn rumour about P. Sarvath redecorating the King's offices. I have mentioned previously that this rumour was completely discounted in Jordan itself within weeks of the late King's death when people visited the palace and found it totally unchanged ( it has now been completely rennovated by the present King). The runours were based on a visit P. Sarvath paid to the guest palace kitchens ahead of a visit of the German President whose wife was ailing and travelled with a cook and a dietician. Palce officials were panicking as they felt the kitchen were not in a fit state to recieve foreigners. P. Sarvath visited the kichen accompanied by various palace officials including the Head of the Royal Court, the Lord Chamberlain and when they found that the kitchens were indeed in filthy and run down, she asked that they be rennovated. I also know from people who were actually travelled with the Princess, she waited for one week in the US trying to see the King; on two other occasions she was stopped half way there. She was not the only member of the family who were not able to see the King in his last illness and this applied to close friends of his as well.

I do not know whether P. Hassan and P. Sarvath are pompous boors but somehow that does not seem to fit in with people who between them have done much to improve the educational and cultural scene in Jordan and continue to do so. This has been detailedly mentioned by a Jordanian, Alia Musallam, in an earlier post some months back. But I have now realised that many people who are members of LTR have only really started following the doings of the JRF in the past few years. P. Sarvath was never in the public eye; and so it is easy to do a character assination on someone no one really knows much about and only heard about a few short years ago.


I do remember that in nineties when it was well known that Q. Noor was having run ins with her in laws. I have asked my Jordanian friends to refresh my memory of that time. This is what they have come up with. I have been accused of being too vague by some members so I will try and be more specific. Please do remember that Amman, capital city though it may be, functions like a village, and everyone knows everything about everyone, and the favorite hobby is gossiping about the JRF. Confidentiality is not much practised, even by doctors !

P. Firyal, ex wife of P. Mohammed was furious to return to Jordan ( she mainly lives in the US and UK now ) to find her possessions packed up in cartons, as that it had been decided that her home Mohammedia, which she and P. Mohammed had built together, and had lived in throughout her marriage, and had been gievn to her after their divorce, had been taken over by K. Hussein and Q. Noor to use as their home. Q Noor had long been disatissfied with their home down town , despite remodelling and redecorating that home three times ( once they moved out for a whole year and got a British firm to virtually remake the house )and was searching for somewhere to live. They had started building a new house and then after the foundations were done she backed out of that project ( this is the house that K. Abdullah Q. Rania have now finished for their use ) ; then a house was bought for them, and partially rennovated, before she changed her mind about that as well ( this is the house the present king and queen have lived in since their marriage) and then she chose P. Firyal's house, which has been completely remodelled and is now called Bab As Salam. P. Firyal has since had a new home built but is understood to be quite bitter about the way in which her home was hijacked.

Q. Noor was very upset that the King had appointed P. Basma to form and head the Jordanian National Commission for Women, which was to be a precursor to the Beijing Women's Conference and was generally to be the umbrella oganisation under which womens' affairs would be dealt with. She also felt sore about the Queen Alia Fund which P. Basma ran efficently, as not only was it successful and well respected, but some said it kept the memory of predecessor too alive for her taste. There was a highly visible argument between the two ladies at the Airport on one occasion.

P. Sarvath had been running the Jordanian Red Crescent on behalf of the Queen Mother Zein for several years ( K. Hussein as Head of State was Hon. President ) Soon after the Gulf War, Queen Zein handed over her responsibilties formally to P. Sarvath , and shortly after this K. Hussein issued a Royal decree appointed P. S. as his Vice President, with active reponsibility of the Red Crescent in Jordan. Q. Noor was reputedly very put out by this decision and tried to get this changed, and also tried to replace the King as Hon. President.

All of these various incidents can provide more than enough material for a journalist to conclude that Q. Noor's relationship with her in laws was less that ideal. This was also apparant a couple of years later when Q. Noor hosted a party to celebrate their 2Oth Wedding Anniversary, at which none of the King's family ( brother, sister, cousins ) were present, and nor any Jordanians. There was little socialising between Q. Noor and K. Hussein and his family, although it was noticed and accepted that during her increasngly frequent absences from the country he would make a point of spending a lot of time with all his family and old friends. He would drop into P. Hassan and P. Sarvath's home for a meal, or just to enjoy their garden, and hold meetings there. This is not hearsay, but directly from the lips of those who would be called to meet with the king and would be as likely to find the meeting being held around P. Hassan's dining room table as in the King's home or offices.

It was around this time that the King first fell ill. It is clear that Q. Noor could see the writing on the wall, and was determined to make her profile and presence as strong as possible. Even if the king had not died as prematurely as he finally did, he was seventeen years older than her, and it would have been reasonable to assume he would predecease her. Q. Noor was clearly preparing for 'the day after'. Many of the projects which are shown under her cv were actaually in existance before she married the king, and she basically just took them over, although she left the day to day running to the founders! Here I am referring the Royal Conservatory of Music and the National Gallery, which were founded by an aunt and cousin of the king, and were well established . I can only assume that she found it frustraing that her sisters in law were not as pliable to her demands as less important members of the family had to be.

I think many people have gotten a rather one sided view of events in Jordan, largely because certainly in the time of K. Hussein and Q. Noor, they were the only members of the JRF who were well known international figures. No one else in the family has given as many interviews as Q. Noor, nor written a book. I think many of the other family members have basically gotten a bad press simply because there just wasn't much press about them in the first place, so there was a blank canvas to paint on. I have not yet read Q. Noor's book but so many Jordanians have told me that it is frustrating experience as there are so many inconsistencies and inaccuracies.

I am not 'against' Q. Noor as a person. I just think that she was a young woman who bit off more than she could chew in her fairly rushed marriage, and then when she found that life was not all a bed of roses, she sought to compensate by developing her public role. . Naturally, anyone who could thwart her ambitions (either directly, or just by existing, as in the case of P. Sarvath ) would not be her favorite person. And perhaps she found that she was more interested in public matters than her family. I believe she has admitted as much in her book, saying that she did not find herself a naturally maternal person, leaving much of the childrearing to nannies etc. In an interview I read many years ago she said that the king actually told her not to use any models or turn to anyone for advice, but to do things her own way. If this was the case, he did her a disservice as many of the misunderstandings etc. might have been avoided if another policy had been followed.
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Old 07-17-2004, 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by shelley@Jul 17th, 2004 - 3:00 amI do not know whether P. Hassan and P. Sarvath are pompous boors but somehow that does not seem to fit in with people who between them have done much to improve the educational and cultural scene in Jordan and continue to do so. This has been detailedly mentioned by a Jordanian, Alia Musallam, in an earlier post some months back. But I have now realised that many people who are members of LTR have only really started following the doings of the JRF in the past few years. P. Sarvath was never in the public eye; and so it is easy to do a character assination on someone no one really knows much about and only heard about a few short years ago.
Dear Shelley,

I am very open to clarifications and was referencing documented accounts found in Roland Holland's book and 2 articles in Vanity Fair written by excellent journalists who had no reason to be partial to QN one way or another. I stand corrected and will now discount--thanks to your info--Sarvath's "redecorating."

You can't discount totally KH's last letter which did indeed reference to Prince Hassan rumors "and here I am talking about my small family" which were vicious "and I attributed to those who pretend to be close to you." So, there were rumors--but as has been rightly pointed out this is a country filled with rumors.

In terms of your last comment that it is apparent some member of LTR basically have recently started following the JRF, I have followed it since 1977, the year QA died. That makes me perhaps not as informed as you but certainly gives some idea that I am not some newcomer who just glommed onto a bunch of rumors and feel like commenting on them.

Thank you for your clarifications.
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Old 07-17-2004, 12:58 PM
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Dear Mary,

Thanks for your message. I didn't necessarily mean you as of course I have no way of knowing how long standing or profound your information on Jordan is, but I certainly do feel that some people have only a fairly recent knowledge of that country and royal family. Can I ask something please ? In those many years that you have been following the affairs of the JRF did you ever hear anything about the behavior of P. Hassan and P. Sarvath which might have given you a remote indication that this was their true character ? or read an interview given by them or about them ? I cannot believe that people can keep their true natures hidden for so long and so successfully ? If they were so ambitious and unpleasant surely the king, a shrewd man, would have sensed something ?

Quote:
Originally posted by pepep@Jul 17th, 2004 - 12:51 pm
Im not sure on what criteria Shelley concluded that members of LTR have only really started following the doings of the JRF in the past few years. Im not sure. I dont follow JFR, but they I part of the world.
I was only basing my probably completely unscientific suppositions on the fact that many of the members are in their late 'teens now which made me think that five/six years ago someone who is say eighteen today, would have been twelve at the time of the succession crisis in Jordan, and as many of those who were involved were not really that well known internationally, it would have taken an unusually politcally aware youngster to be that interested in the in's and out's of the whole business, and to be able to discern the truth from the hype. ( For instance, how well known was P. Sarvath, or P. Rania as she was in 1998/1999 ) But I accept that maybe I am wrong, and quite probably the majority have been followers of the doings of the JRF for a long time.
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Old 07-23-2004, 01:30 AM
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If you look around this site, you see photos of Haya and Rania together, smiling and laughing. Haya routinely donates her mother's tiara to Rania. They enjoy a close perhaps conspiratorial relationship. And I don't mean it's necessarily planned. But Rania isn't a huge fan of Noor, neither is Haya. One, as daughter in law and one as adopted daughter joined together and Haya's comments about QN have gone from 1997's bio of KH by Roland Dallas "she was great; she made sure our lives were normal and she was a wonderful mother" to not contributing to QN's book, making some derogatory comments and seemingly having little contact with Noor. The relationship seems to have triangulated with Rania at the tip since KH's death. After doing a lot of reading and seeing things posted here, it occured to me these ladies have joined together to ensure QN feels even more unwanted.....Yes, it's speculation but, if Haya thought Noor was once a great mom, she certainly now seems to have aligned with Rania and ignores Noor.....What changed? Any thoughts? Or am I making too much of this?

Also, whatever happened to KH's plane? Did Abdullah take it over or was it replaced? Just curious.
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Old 07-24-2004, 05:42 PM
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Well no matter what every individual 'decides' about Rania & Haya ganging up against Noor, I wouldn't pay much attention to it. At the end of the day, they're all theories based on gossip and speculation. I dont get how people waste so much time on passing judgements on family/marital relationships of total strangers.
Its one thing being a royal watcher and another being totally obsessed with it.
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Old 07-24-2004, 10:47 PM
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Originally posted by ~*~Humera~*~@Jul 24th, 2004 - 5:42 pm
Well no matter what every individual 'decides' about Rania & Haya ganging up against Noor, I wouldn't pay much attention to it. At the end of the day, they're all theories based on gossip and speculation. I dont get how people waste so much time on passing judgements on family/marital relationships of total strangers.
Its one thing being a royal watcher and another being totally obsessed with it.
I couldn't agree more. I try to constantly use the word "if" because that leaves room for doubt, but you're right, most of it is probably sheer speculation and my favorite, rumors. However, you can't ignore that some is founded on facts. That's why I try to deal with factual information, and allow the rumors to be just what they are. I think most people on here know that alot of it is just rumors and speculation, but I'm not so sure about others... :flower:
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Old 08-03-2004, 01:01 AM
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You are right. The original premise was my speculation based on chummy photos and what seemed to be a mutual cold war against QN. And, I suppose, I based some of it on personal experience where the most unlikely band together against a shared "enemy." Women can be very vicious toward other women when they are insecure.....so can men but they seem more discreet or straightforward, whichever you prefer. In my effort to figure out the rift between all I:

a. noted PH immediately loaned her tiara to Rania--a gesture you don't make unless you are friendly and that Rania has worn it a lot since, which seems to mean their friendship continues.

b. Haya said very nice things about QN until about the time Rania became Queen. Then things changed with both women in their attitude toward Noor.

c. In photos which are serious, I assume they are listening intently to one another. Otherwise, they do seem via photos to have a "smiles beaming" good rapport.

But, yes, it is speculation. But, then again, so is most of what we say, do and hear as we go about our lives every day.

Thank you all for your interesting comments.
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Old 08-04-2004, 10:11 PM
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I think Queen Noor wasn't the wonderful stepmoher that some people portray her to be! If some of King Hussein children are cold towards her, then there must be a reason.
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Old 08-05-2004, 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by Angie@Aug 4th, 2004 - 9:11 pm
I think Queen Noor wasn't the wonderful stepmoher that some people portray her to be! If some of King Hussein children are cold towards her, then there must be a reason.
I tend to agree with you, Angie. Really, it's only in interviews with QN herself that I've read anything remotely positive about her relationships with her stepchildren. Everything else I've read casts doubt on what QN has said.
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Old 08-05-2004, 12:09 PM
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Then again, it would be hard to tell if Noor was a good step-mother to King Hussein's children. More often than not, step-children hold at least a little bit of resentment towards their parents' new spouses just for the fact that they married into the family. I guess no one really knows unless you're a part of the family.
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