Queen Noor And Queen Rania

[papillon]

Hi, everyone. Genevieve was observant and kind enough to point out to me that a thread I'd begun on this topic dropped off the Middle Eastern Royalty Forum sometime in the last 24 hours or so. I've alerted one of the moderators who will try to recover our lost posts and merge threads but, in the meantime, since there was such a lively, intelligent, thoughtful discussion in progress, I thought I'd begin a Part Deux.

OK, so where did we leave off? QueenB or Genevieve, do either of you remember?

Thanks, all.

[bluetortuga]

I think KA and QR should leave QN alone and let her live in peace. I gather from the wedding QN has already "lost" one son. I can't understand Hamzah's behavior. It will come back to bite hime. As for Q Rania, she had better be careful how she treats a widow. God forbid something happen to KA at a young age; she'll be in the same position as Q Noor is now. What goes around, comes around!

[papillon]

Originally posted by bluetortuga@Jun 30th, 2004 - 9:49 pm
I think KA and QR should leave QN alone and let her live in peace. I gather from the wedding QN has already "lost" one son. I can't understand Hamzah's behavior. It will come back to bite hime. As for Q Rania, she had better be careful how she treats a widow. God forbid something happen to KA at a young age; she'll be in the same position as Q Noor is now. What goes around, comes around!

I'm with you, bluetortuga. But I'd take it a step further and wish that KA and QR would treat QN with the dignity and respect she deserves or, if they can't do that, then do as you say (i.e., leave her alone). It does seem like C.P. Hamzah has sold his soul and, if/when the succession changes, it'll all be for naught. What the heck is he thinking?!!! I hope he matures and sees the error of his ways.

[Genevieve]

Originally posted by bluetortuga@Jun 30th, 2004 - 10:49 pm
I think KA and QR should leave QN alone and let her live in peace. I gather from the wedding QN has already "lost" one son. I can't understand Hamzah's behavior. It will come back to bite hime.

I think you're right that Queen Noor has already lost Hamzah to Abdullah and Rania in that he has followed the scent of the power so to speak. To coin another tired phrase: Hamzah knows which side the bread is buttered. And sadly the power doesn't lie with his mother anymore. How he could drop his mother so easily for the possibility of power and the role of King is beyond me. And I say possibility because I don't truly believe that he will be named King when Abdullah dies; I think in all likelihood Abdullah will appoint his own son to succeed him. Also, by all the accounts I have read, Noor was not a bad mother. She did not abandon him, abuse him or neglect him. She was in fact quite a doting and caring mother, and how he could turn his back on her now, especially since she has lost her husband (his father) whom she loved deeply, I will never understand.

He seems like such an ungrateful son for what he has done to Noor.

I don't think he realizes what an asset his mother could be if she were more a part of his life. She is well liked and admired in Jordan (even if the present King and Queen think differently on this), and if power and the role of King is what Hamzah has his eyes on, I truly think that his mother could help him achieve this. She may not be able to make up Abdullah's mind for him and insist that he carry out his late father's dying wish, but I think that Noor could certainly convince some people among the Jordanian elite and powerful that Hamzah is right for the role of king and they in turn could sway Abdullah, or at least create a base of support amongst the powerful in Jordan for Hamzah's "side." Also, I think Noor's presence in Jordan at Hamzah's side would be a constant reminder to the Jordanian people of the late King Hussein, who was very loved and admired, and that it was his personal sentiment that Hamzah his 'favourite' son should one day be king.

[QueenB]

I totally agree with everyone on this topic!!!!!!
I think QR should take a look at herself... it's one thing to be presentable and elegant - it's another thing to talk about poverty in your country and why other Nations should help you out - then walk around then stand in front of the people of that same Country in a scarf with the words FENDI strewn across it... at least be suttle, you know?
As far as Hamzah and QN... Hashim looks really close to everyone - siblings and his Mom... but he doesn't seem to spend much time in Jordan and neither do their sisters Iman and Raiyah - only when their Mom's there... I don't think Hamzah or anyone should humiliate themselves or allow their loved ones to be treated in such a deplorable fashion - as it's rumored QN is treated - just because they may or may not become king someday.... as I said in the previous in the 'lost thread' ... that KA may in fact want his own son to succeed him.... and unless KA promised KH that he would abdicate when Hamzah was 'prepared' it is doubtful CP Hamzah will be king before he's 50... and KA and QR love to be the ruling monarchs... so who knows... and with Hamzah announcing that after the wedding, he and PNoor were returning to the US to continue studying in post graduate studies - it's interesting he just didn't graduate from college and then choose to start working in Jordan....... so obviously he isn't going to be king anytime soon...
Genevieve, you're so right, Queen Noor seems to have been such a good mother and really devoted to each of her kids, as well as her husband, their people and Nation... I've read that it's that very devotion and her 'looking out' for her son's best interest that is another rumored rift within the extended family... it was really ugly to see QN cut out of Sandurst graduation picture - Hamzah, Hashim's and Iman's graduations - and pretty much regulated to the side or cut out of pictures at the wedding.... or it turning into a photo op for KA and QR... c'mon - those are Noor's kids - after the kids, it's also her day to shine... ya know? Sometimes, it's mentioned by someone who saw her - you wouldn't know Noor was even there..
Princess Noor - just based on the pictures I've seen - I don't know this to be true because people can be all smiles and then dislike each other - but she seems really close to KA and QR.. and so does CP Hamzah... I think they both know where the power lies and as you've stated, it isn't with Queen Noor any longer...
Interestingly, do you think it may irk Abdullah that he became king because Hamzah was too young - although it was CP that KH was rumored to have wanted to succeed him?
I've always wondered if QN and Princess Muna got along... at the Spanish wedding, they sat next to each other and were chatting... but it seems like the less we see of Noor, the more we see of QR and Princess Muna....

But Hamzah clearly - whether it's right or wrong - wants to be King... that statement of his before the Wedding Ceremony that it would be a small, lower scale ceremony because he's in solidarity with the Iraqis and Palestinians, is a public relations statement if I've ever heard one - even if it was truly heartfelt - only he knows that - but what a smart thing to say..... because when people start to look at that statement in comparison with the statements on expensive vacations, cars, planes and couture..... people will certainly see his 'gesture' as something someone 'in touch' would say.... I really wonder what is going through the CP's head.... hasn't he ever been so upset about something KA or QR has said or done to his Mom and just wanted to tell them to shove the CP title.....? (Sorry for the wording, but you know what I mean).... Perhaps his actions - his quiet and his non reaction is strategy..... he figures the best revenge is success.... when he gets into power then he'll give his Mom her place..... he may have learned to be quite the political strategist from his own Father - straddling two worlds without upsetting either one or jeopardizing his own standing.....
But with every new 'family picture' it seems that KA and QR are putting their own son into the spotlight more and more..... and the idea that either their son would succeed Abdullah or perhaps KA could put a condition on Hamzah that he wants his own son to succeed Hamzah - similar to KH wanting Hamzah to succeed the ex CP Hassan... - as a condition...

There was article - there are so many of them - but there was one written soon after the death of KH that said that KH had practically declared Hamzah heir - and he conversed with several friends including President Bill Clinton - and then after weighing all options and figuring out what was best for the nation and their people - decided Hamzah was too young.... also because he was Hamzah's age when he had become King - he wanted Hamzah to have the opportunity to live and grow before having that weight on his shoulders.....

I don't know where all the rifts began..... perhaps it was Muna's jealousy that King Hussein married QN and made her Queen..... or because people felt QN was pushing Hamzah into the spotlight or was too whatever...... but it seems like their issues just keep snowballing into even bigger issues and more hostility between all of them.....

[QueenB]

Thanks Genevieve for bringing up that previous thread was missing.... perhaps it was merged into another thread... :flower:

[papillon]

Originally posted by Genevieve@Jun 30th, 2004 - 10:23 pm
Also, I think Noor's presence in Jordan at Hamzah's side would be a constant reminder to the Jordanian people of the late King Hussein, who was very loved and admired, and that it was his personal sentiment that Hamzah his 'favourite' son should one day be king.

You know, Genevieve, I think you may have just hit on one of the major reasons QN is kept out of the country as much as she is. She's a visual reminder to all of KH's death, how well she took care of him during his long illness, how much he was loved by his people, and how he would've preferred that C.P. Hamzah was old enough to succeed him. That's just too threatening to KA and QR. Maybe it's not just that there's a rivalry between QN and QR, but that there's a perceived challenge to the throne.

[papillon]

Originally posted by QueenB@Jun 30th, 2004 - 11:17 pm
But Hamzah clearly - whether it's right or wrong - wants to be King... that statement of his before the Wedding Ceremony that it would be a small, lower scale ceremony because he's in solidarity with the Iraqis and Palestinians, is a public relations statement if I've ever heard one - even if it was truly heartfelt - only he knows that - but what a smart thing to say..... because when people start to look at that statement in comparison with the statements on expensive vacations, cars, planes and couture..... people will certainly see his 'gesture' as something someone 'in touch' would say.

But, QueenB, did you really "buy" this? I thought it was nice that C.P. Hamzah acknowledged the ugly plight of the world and, in particular, the region at this time, but taking almost a year to plan your wedding ceremony using British wedding planners, inviting thousands of people to it, and spreading it over days--well the talk just didn't match the walk, in my estimation. If that was the toned down version, what would the extravagant version have looked like? So I didn't really give that much credence, except to note the inconsistency.

I'm a little confused about QN's parenting skills. Clearly the stepchildren, right or wrong, feel that she wasn't the best. I happen to think the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle and that QN probably wasn't as good a parent to them as she could've been, but she probably didn't suck at it as much as they would like us to believe, either. With her biological children, perhaps she did better. But in her "Vanity Fair" interview in 1999, she admits that she wasn't very much into parenting. She said she always put her husband and the needs of her country first and that she relied on extended family members and nannies to look after her children while she was traveling the world. It seems like a fairly honest self assessment, in which case she probably isn't as close to her children now as a lot of mothers might be. But it does seem to me that losing her husband and most of her role in Jordan has given her the time and the will to spend more time with her children. Good for her. But I just can't figure out why C.P. Hamzah is choosing to behave as he does. Why is his career path more important than his mother? It's deeply troubling to me, and it breaks my heart each time I see photos of or read news articles about another QN snubbing.

[Josefine]

the thread was merged with the queen rania thread

[tipper]

Originally posted by bluetortuga@Jun 30th, 2004 - 9:49 pm
I think KA and QR should leave QN alone and let her live in peace. I gather from the wedding QN has already "lost" one son. I can't understand Hamzah's behavior. It will come back to bite hime. As for Q Rania, she had better be careful how she treats a widow. God forbid something happen to KA at a young age; she'll be in the same position as Q Noor is now. What goes around, comes around!

I can remember so well, i've got a tape of it , when Hamzah grad at Sandhurst, QR and KA were in front row chatting to some officials, then QN, looking so lonely, sitting next to KA, but nor KA or QR did chat her up, her kids having a laugh in the 2nd row- at the end of it all, she was standing alone crying, Hamzah approached her only for a few min, she tried to talk to him, but he soon went to KA to hug him and QR, at that point KA said something to Hamzah pointing at QN, who was still there alone, so , finally Hamzah went to hug his mum, I found it all so heartbreaking.......

[Genevieve]

Originally posted by Josefine@Jul 1st, 2004 - 2:25 am
the thread was merged with the queen rania thread

Is there a way somehow to "unmerge" the thread? Because it really was a seperate discussion and not wholly about Rania to be in a Rania thread, or whollly aboaut Noor to be in a Noor thread. The original thread was so different from a thread about Rania or Noor news that you wouldn't put it together anymore than you wouldn't put the Mary and Frederik in Greenland thread merged with a Frederik and Mary News thread.

I think that any of us who participated in that thread would be happy to point out to you which posts were part of the original thread.

It was a very interesting discussion and some intelligent comments were made about it and I dread the idea of having to wade through 6 posts speculating on if Rania is pregnant before I can a comment related to this issue.

[Josefine]

Middle Eastern Royalty forum is getting bigger each day and threads are started without lokking if there is a thread on a subject or a person I would rather have all discussion on ranisa in the same thread. we are very few mods at LTR at the moment


i know its no fun to read posts that you are not intrested in but it is much easier to modarate in this way. as I said before applay as a modarater to bear and help out then i may not need to merge many threads togather


Have you taken a look at the very old threads to see if this discussion has been made before?

[papillon]

Originally posted by tipper@Jul 1st, 2004 - 5:33 am
I can remember so well, i've got a tape of it , when Hamzah grad at Sandhurst, QR and KA were in front row chatting to some officials, then QN, looking so lonely, sitting next to KA, but nor KA or QR did chat her up, her kids having a laugh in the 2nd row- at the end of it all, she was standing alone crying, Hamzah approached her only for a few min, she tried to talk to him, but he soon went to KA to hug him and QR, at that point KA said something to Hamzah pointing at QN, who was still there alone, so , finally Hamzah went to hug his mum, I found it all so heartbreaking......

Oh my gosh! Tipper, can you tell from the video whether QN was crying out of pride for her son, crying because she probably was thinking her husband would've liked to be there but can't, or crying because of the "wrongness" of KA and QR stealing the moment from her? Whatever the reasons, it is truly heartbreaking. I say shame on KA and QR for their cruelty and hubris. Maybe they are trying to make QN look bad, but it is backfiring in a big way. People are smarter than that. We can tell who's the real baddie in this situation.

[papillon]

Originally posted by Josefine@Jul 1st, 2004 - 8:42 am


i know its no fun to read posts that you are not intrested in but it is much easier to modarate in this way. as I said before applay as a modarater to bear and help out then i may not need to merge many threads togather


Have you taken a look at the very old threads to see if this discussion has been made before?

So, is that a "no" Josefine? Because Genevieve's point is well made. I started the original thread, and your assumption that it was begun without first looking at all the others is (I can attest since it was I who started it) 100% wrong. I looked through all 10 or so pages of threads before starting it, and there was none about this.

We are truly sorry if the site is understaffed, but I think it is a little unreasonable to ask those of us who only have the time and the interest to post occasionally to take on the responsibility for moderating as a justification for the merging of this thread's posts to the QR thread's posts. This site is popular and gaining in popularity, and that is a good thing. The Middle Eastern Royalty Forum is probably gaining in popularity in part because people want to understand why that region of the world is such a mess and try to bridge cultural differences. But I think we could lose participation if we all have to wade through topics we aren't much interested in to find the needle-in-a-haystack post that gives us insight. Like Genevieve, I'm not much interested in QR, her shoes, the superficialities of all that (not that I'm judging others who are), and I think it's reasonable to keep this discussion separate.

Please don't feel like this is an attack. I just hate to kill off a good discussion because its essence is buried in pages and pages of QR and smiley posts that are of little interest to some of us.

Thank you for reconsidering.

[QueenB]

Nope I didn't buy that statement - but like I said - what a smart 'public relations' statement.. It was a huge and luxurious wedding - but my point was that he's showing by what he's saying and doing that he wants to be king..
That's so sad about QN at the Sandhurst graduation... I do think she is a constant reminder of KH - but instead of trying to tear her down - they should work together because in the end KA will never be KH - doubtful he will be even close to being as loved, respected and admired... and keeping Noor out isn't going to change that...

[papillon]

Originally posted by QueenB@Jul 1st, 2004 - 6:08 pm
Nope I didn't buy that statement - but like I said - what a smart 'public relations' statement.. It was a huge and luxurious wedding - but my point was that he's showing by what he's saying and doing that he wants to be king..
That's so sad about QN at the Sandhurst graduation... I do think she is a constant reminder of KH - but instead of trying to tear her down - they should work together because in the end KA will never be KH - doubtful he will be even close to being as loved, respected and admired... and keeping Noor out isn't going to change that...

It's clear to me, too, that C.P. Hamzah wants to be king. But I think he's blinded to his mother's needs by that ambition, and I don't think that is such an admirable quality.

[stacy]

if king hussein wanted hamzah to be king he would have to change the constitution - it only allows the king to chose the oldest son or a brother as crown prince - and under the current law there is no way hamzah could make abdullahs son his heir if he was to become king

[papillon]

Originally posted by stacy@Jul 1st, 2004 - 7:24 pm
if king hussein wanted hamzah to be king he would have to change the constitution - it only allows the king to chose the oldest son or a brother as crown prince - and under the current law there is no way hamzah could make abdullahs son his heir if he was to become king

But, stacy, why would Hamzah want to make KA's son his heir if Hamzah were king? I think Hamzah would want to keep succession in his branch of the family tree if he were king.