Prince Hassan & Princess Sarvath- News and Pictures II

[Humera]

Originally Posted by shelley

Am I right in thinking that the shalwar kameez has sort of become the pants suits of Pakistan, and the sari remains the more formal option ?

Where have you seen these pictures ? I'd love to see them. Because there are absolutely none in her autobiography and my friend who has seen Princess Sarvath's mother on television,in the press and actually in real life when in Pakistan, at various functions, says she has never ever saw her in anything but a sari. For that matter, she says that President Musharraf's mother, who is quite an old lady, is always seen in a sari as well. Is that so ? What family does Princess Sarvath have living in Pakistan now ?

Well I think that to an extent saris are worn at more formal events. But not many women wear them. It is the dominant dress in India, not Pakistan.
Formal wear is all about lehngas, ghararas, ghagras etc.
Yes you're right about the President's mother. She wears saris much of the time too. Again, that's explained by her age and the fact that the family is originally from India. The President was born in India.
Btw..both my mom and dad's families are from different parts of India. They migrated to Pakistan after or before partition. But none of the elder ladies in their families,my grandmothers, wear saris. Again, thats because they've lived in Pakistan for decades now. But I think its obvious that its all about personal preference. There are some women in Pakistan, even younger ones, that wear saris all the time.
I did see a picture of Princess Sarvath's mother wearing a shalwar kameez. I thought I had posted it in the previous thread....I'll have to look it up.
Princess Sarvath's family...hmmm, I wouldnt know that much about it but I think most of them live in Pakistan.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~

Formal wear is all about lehngas, ghararas, ghagras etc.
.

What are lehngas and ghagras ? Its too late to phone my friend in Karachi. She said that most women she knows there wear shalwar kameez all the time, but that some of the older women, and a very few young ones, wear the sari for formal occasions, so basically the same as what you have told me. She said people have become so unused to wearing saris on a regular basis she said that there are even sewn up saris which can be slipped on like a dress.

[papillon]

Looks like P. Hassan met with exchange program participants from Seeds of Peace last month. I'd seen this reported in The Jordan Times, but with no mention of either P. Hassan's or QN's involvement. :(

Seeds of Peace's Spring 2005 Bulletin

[Humera]

Originally Posted by shelley

What are lehngas and ghagras ? Its too late to phone my friend in Karachi. She said that most women she knows there wear shalwar kameez all the time, but that some of the older women, and a very few young ones, wear the sari for formal occasions, so basically the same as what you have told me. She said people have become so unused to wearing saris on a regular basis she said that there are even sewn up saris which can be slipped on like a dress.

okay I'll try to post a few pics and brief descriptions since I dont want to go off-topic. I posted a lot of pics a while back in the wedding forum in the "Bridal dresses from around the world" thread. If you have any more questions, I'd be happy to answer you via PM and show you more pics.

Lehnga is a long full skirt. Worn with a short kameez/blouse and ofcourse a dupatta (scarf) - Pic #1

Ghagra is similar to a lehnga but it is fuller and has pleats. It is worn with a short choli/blouse. It's the traditional costume in the southern Pakistani province of Sindh and in Rajhastan, India. It is worn mostly by rural women. The Ghagra & Choli are often embroidered with traditional Sindhi embroidery, with small in-laid mirrors. I had a traditional Ghagra Choli made for the wedding of my dad's cousin. It is absolutely gorgeous - Pic #2 (this is the closest pic to the traditional sindhi ghagra choli I could find)

Gharara, as you've seen from the pictures Princess Sarvath's daughters, looks like a skirt but is actually split in the middle like pants and is flared at the knees. I believe it is also called a sharara. Pic #3

You can also see several young women wearing ghararas in the fourth pic. The bride, in the middle, is wearing a lacha I believe. Lachas are the same as lehngas except they're worn with a longer tunic/kameez. They're of Punjabi origin I believe.

So all these different terms and variations reflect different ethnic cultures within Pakistan. Though none of these are restricted to a particular region and all are worn throughout the country.
Too bad my mom's not here or she'd explain all of this a lot better.

[Humera]

Originally Posted by shelley

She said people have become so unused to wearing saris on a regular basis she said that there are even sewn up saris which can be slipped on like a dress.

its funny, I remember going through my mom's wardrobe from the early days of her marriage and she has some gorgeous saris. I told her that I wanted kameezes made out of some of them
I think even making dupattas out of them would be perfect since the sari fabric is so generous.
A few of my mom's saris looked like some of the formal saris P. Sarvath has. The ones with the gold and coloured borders.
Though I find them too ageing. Saris in Pakistan are much hipper now.

[Humera]

1. Princess Sarvath and daughters wearing ghararas, 1992
2. Princess Sumaya's mehndi ceremony, 1992
3. Princess Rahma's mehndi ceremony

Both sisters wore green for their mehndi which is very appropriate. I find it interesting that they had mehndi ceremonies eventhough they married Arab men. I wonder if they had the mayoun ceremony. Its so much fun.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~

Lehnga is a long full skirt. Worn with a short kameez/blouse and ofcourse a dupatta (scarf) - Pic #1

Ghagra is similar to a lehnga but it is fuller and has pleats. It is worn with a short choli/blouse. It's the traditional costume in the southern Pakistani province of Sindh and in Rajhastan, India. It is worn mostly by rural women. The Ghagra & Choli are often embroidered with traditional Sindhi embroidery, with small in-laid mirrors. I had a traditional Ghagra Choli made for the wedding of my dad's cousin. It is absolutely gorgeous - Pic #2 (this is the closest pic to the traditional sindhi ghagra choli I could find)

Gharara, as you've seen from the pictures Princess Sarvath's daughters, looks like a skirt but is actually split in the middle like pants and is flared at the knees. I believe it is also called a sharara. Pic #3

You can also see several young women wearing ghararas in the fourth pic. The bride, in the middle, is wearing a lacha I believe. Lachas are the same as lehngas except they're worn with a longer tunic/kameez. They're of Punjabi origin I believe.

So all these different terms and variations reflect different ethnic cultures within Pakistan. Though none of these are restricted to a particular region and all are worn throughout the country.
.

Well done and thank you ! You do quite well enough without help from your mother .

I am sure we are now wildly off topic, but may be the moderators will bear with us a bit more and then we can get back into line. some questions:

The gharara; where does it orginate from ? Ditto the sari. Ditto the traditional shalwar kameez.

You say about the styles shown above, that these " reflect different ethnic cultures within Pakistan. Though none of these are restricted to a particular region and all are worn throughout the country. "
Would all age groups now wear all ethnic styles or would that be confined to the younger set ?

Now, and with no disrespect to anyone, the clothes as worn by Mrs. Musharraf are rather frumpy. There is no contest IMO between them, a sari or the sleek outfits shown in your post. However, I think those are meant for young, slim girls and both Mrs Musharraf and Princess Sarvath could not really wear them easily. To adapt them as you suggest would spoil them.

I seem to think whenever the Aga Khan's wives are shown in a photograph they too prefer to stick to the sari. You are the whizz at photographs, Humera, so maybe you can find some to check out what I am saying. Finally, am I wrong in thinking that former Pakistanifirst ladies used to wear the sari as well as the shalwar kameez ? Now, I am trying to think back into time. The first Pakistan President I was aware of was President Ayub Khan. I remember thinking how attractive ( and young ) his wife was, and she wore both saris and shalwar kameez . So I guess what I am really asking is, when did it cease to become a personal choice and more of a nationalistic statement, or is it just a question of evolution, in the same way pants have taken over from dresses and suits in the west ?

I wish though, that Princess Sarvath has introduced some of the beautiful clothes you have shown us to the Arab world, and started a trend that way. That would have been something. :)

[Humera]

Originally Posted by shelley

The gharara; where does it orginate from ? Ditto the sari. Ditto the traditional shalwar kameez.

Im pretty sure of the origin of the gharara. It goes back to the time of the Mughal Empire in India. Ghararas were worn in the royal court and by Muslim noble/aritocratic women. It is amazing that it has survived so long and is still popular today. This link may help: http://www.multigids.net/Winkelen/Kleding/2060/

As for sari and shalwar kameez, I found 3 articles that might help you. The one on shalwar kameez is really good. It explains how the central Asians introduce stitched clothing to the Indian subcontinent. Before that men and women wore 'draped' fabrics.

Shalwar Kameez (Old article, but a very good one. It also explains how the shalwar kameez took off in the 1980s, in part due to some Pakistani tv drama serials which were extremely popular at the time both in Pakistan and India. Also, ready-made boutiques were starting to become popular during that decade. The one that stands out was called Tee Jays. The actresses on TV wore their clothing. My mom had so many of their outfits as well): http://www.himalmag.com/96aug/shalwar.htm

The first sari article explains that its origin goes all the way back to the ancient Indus Valley Civilization (found in modern-day Pakistan)
http://www.lib.uconn.edu/about/exhib...ri/sarifpg.htm

Another article on the origins of sari and the importance of "unstitched" fabrics in Indian civilization
http://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/theindiansari

You say about the styles shown above, that these " reflect different ethnic cultures within Pakistan. Though none of these are restricted to a particular region and all are worn throughout the country. "
Would all age groups now wear all ethnic styles or would that be confined to the younger set ?

Nope, there's no rules or restrictions. Anyone can wear them. They can be dressed up or down depending on the woman's age and taste.

Now, and with no disrespect to anyone, the clothes as worn by Mrs. Musharraf are rather frumpy. There is no contest IMO between them, a sari or the sleek outfits shown in your post. However, I think those are meant for young, slim girls and both Mrs Musharraf and Princess Sarvath could not really wear them easily. To adapt them as you suggest would spoil them.

Yes I know what you mean. But Mrs. Musharraf is not a young, slim woman. She obviously wears clothing that suits her style and her body type.
But I dont want you to misunderstand and think, from the pictures of the tall thin models, that older or bigger women cant wear those outfits. They can always be adopted to fit the woman's body type. Which is why when I suggested some designs for Sarvath in one of my earlier posts, I added the comment that she could add sleeves, lengthen the kameez, etc. Just like in the west a plus-size woman can wear dresses, pant suits that are appropriate for her size. Ofcourse bigger women are restricted in terms of their choices no matter where they live. A lot of things that look good on thin women dont suite plus-size women.

I seem to think whenever the Aga Khan's wives are shown in a photograph they too prefer to stick to the sari. You are the whizz at photographs, Humera, so maybe you can find some to check out what I am saying. Finally, am I wrong in thinking that former Pakistanifirst ladies used to wear the sari as well as the shalwar kameez ? Now, I am trying to think back into time. The first Pakistan President I was aware of was President Ayub Khan. I remember thinking how attractive ( and young ) his wife was, and she wore both saris and shalwar kameez . So I guess what I am really asking is, when did it cease to become a personal choice and more of a nationalistic statement, or is it just a question of evolution, in the same way pants have taken over from dresses and suits in the west ?

I dont know about former pakistani first ladies. I only know about ones during my lifetime. But as you'll read in the shalwar kameez article, it wasnt until the 1980s that the shalwar kameez became so dominant and fashionable and the sari was almost entirely replaced, worn only rarely at formal events. So I would definately call it an evolution. Just like with any form of dress, with the shalwar kameez older trends make comebacks, newer and even radical trends come and go etc. I love going through old picture albums of my mom from the days before she got married. Her shalwar kameezes were so different. The kameez was very snug and way above the knees and the shalwar was more like bell bottoms. Now shorter kameezes are back in fashion. And so are flared shalwars.
I cant imagine Princess Sarvath wearing that style of shalwar kameez in the 70s. It wouldnt have been modest enough for her.

Former Pakistani PM Benazir Bhutto wore shalwar kameez all the time ofcourse (and lehngas, ghararas at formal events) but a lot of the times she would add a matching jacket to the outfit. So personal preference plays a huge part.
I have seen several pics of the Aga Khan's ex-wife and his daughter wearing shalwar kameez in Pakistan. I'll have to look them up though.

I wish though, that Princess Sarvath has introduced some of the beautiful clothes you have shown us to the Arab world, and started a trend that way. That would have been something. :)

Perhaps. But if Arabic women have increasingly replaced their own traditional dress for western attire, then I dont think they'd have taken to Pakistani or Asian clothing.
I think in that way the subcontinent and other parts of Asia are very lucky.
Despite efforts on behalf of the colonial British to impose their own culture on the region, we've not only kept but evolved and enhanced our traditional clothing, made it more fashionable. That is not to say that women in the region dont wear western clothing from time to time, but when it comes special events, nothing can beat a pretty embroidered lehnga, gharara, etc. They're way more colourful and feminine than dresses and go perfectly with the traditional jewellery, choorian (glass bangles).
And ofcourse nothing keeps one cooler on a hot day than a pretty printed lawn shalwar kameez.

btw...Princess Sarvath often invites Pakistani designers, models, choreographers for fashion shows in Jordan. So I think thats her way of promoting cultural exchange, and benefitting charities at the same time.

[shelley]

My goodness Humera.You have missed your calling. You ought to be a fashion editor. You seem to mamage very well without your mother's input. I am not good with quotes so Iwill do it my way. I am sorry if we are going off topic again but having started this whole thing we might as well conclude it and then get back in line !

"Ghararas were worn in the royal court and by Muslim noble/aritocratic women."
So then it is appropriate on all counts that Princess Sarvath and her daughters continue to wear this style of dress.

" The shalwar kameez took off in the 1980s, in part due to some Pakistani tv drama serials which were extremely popular at the time both in Pakistan and India. Also, ready-made boutiques were starting to become popular during that decade. The one that stands out was called Tee Jays. The actresses on TV wore their clothing." So what you are saying is that this resulted in women being influenced by some of the popular actresses of the time in their style of dress, something like the influence Dynasty and Dallas had on western televison viewers. IMO, I am not sure if that sort of thing would have been suitable for a princess ?

"The first sari article explains that its origin goes all the way back to the ancient Indus Valley Civilization (found in modern-day Pakistan)". So is it Pakistani or not ? Somewhere earlier you said it was considered a more Indian style of dress.

"I dont know about former pakistani first ladies. I only know about ones during my lifetime."

Have just spoken to my friend and she confirms that the lady I was thinking about was the president's daughter, not his wife, who was his hostess and travelled with him, and that she wore both saris and shalwar kameez.

"Former Pakistani PM Benazir Bhutto wore shalwar kameez all the time ofcourse (and lehngas, ghararas at formal events) but a lot of the times she would add a matching jacket to the outfit. So personal preference plays a huge part."

Again, my friend says that in her younger days Ms. Bhutto also wore saris, as did her mother. She gave up when she entered politics. ( I am still confused as to why she would have to do this ). There seems to be some sort of statement being made here which passes me by.

"I have seen several pics of the Aga Khan's ex-wife and his daughter wearing shalwar kameez in Pakistan. I'll have to look them up though." The pictures I have seen in magazines such as Point de Vue or Hello have shown them in either western dress or saris, but maybe they dress differently when they are in Pakistan.

All of this has been very interesting and you have done a lot of work. Thank you. I hope no-one is upset with either of us for going off topic but I am sure other people have learnt as much as I have from your posts. :)

[La la]

Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~

I find it interesting that they had mehndi ceremonies eventhough they married Arab men.

Actually applying henna on brides is a common practice in many Middle Eastern and North African countries.

[Humera]

Originally Posted by La la

Actually applying henna on brides is a common practice in many Middle Eastern and North African countries.

yes I know, but the Pakistani mehndi ceremony isnt just about applying henna on hands. Its about a whole bunch of age-old rituals. Strikingly similar to bruneian, indonesian pre-weddings rituals

[La la]

The henna parties in Arab countries aren't just about applying henna on hands either. I'm most familiar with the Moroccan henna parties but I know the others also have their unique rituals and deeper purposes.

[Humera]

Originally Posted by shelley

My goodness Humera.You have missed your calling. You ought to be a fashion editor. You seem to mamage very well without your mother's input. I am not good with quotes so Iwill do it my way. I am sorry if we are going off topic again but having started this whole thing we might as well conclude it and then get back in line !

Yes I've been told that before
I keep in touch with fashion in Pakistan thats all, eventhough I dont live there.

"Ghararas were worn in the royal court and by Muslim noble/aritocratic women."
So then it is appropriate on all counts that Princess Sarvath and her daughters continue to wear this style of dress.

yes perhaps it is. Though some elder ladies in Pakistan wear them all the time too. It gives them such an air of nobility I think. Apparently my dad's mom used to wear them too. But they're impractical for everyday wear.

So what you are saying is that this resulted in women being influenced by some of the popular actresses of the time in their style of dress, something like the influence Dynasty and Dallas had on western televison viewers. IMO, I am not sure if that sort of thing would have been suitable for a princess ?

Not really, I dont want you to misunderstand. I was just giving you some possible explanations of why the shalwar kameez took off especially since the 1980s. There were many reasons which im sure isnt possible for me to explain right now. I dont know if you read the article, it does a pretty good job, though it doesnt go too far back in detail. I guess the best way of explaining it might be that a tv show can influence styles and cuts, it cant just change the way an entire society dresses. So the drama serials from the 80s I've mentioned were influential only in the sense that they were showcasing the shalwar kameez in a new light and style. They were basically bringing to prominence what was going on in the country already.
Kind of like Dynasty and Dallas, as you mentioned, the big hair and shoulders. That might be the extent of their influence. They didnt introduce the pant/skirt suit for the first time. It was already there. They only introduced a newer style.

[i]So is it Pakistani or not ? Somewhere earlier you said it was considered a more Indian style of dress.

You know thats a trick question. Its impossible to say whether something as old as a sari or shalwar kameez is Pakistani because Pakistan has only been a country since 1947. The civillization it has been a part of though, is thousands of years old. And those influences are stronger and present today in Pakistan as they are in India.
Again, going back to the articles. One of them explains its origin going all the way back to the Indus valley civilization (which as I said is in modern-day Pakistan) and the other traces its origins from Hindu mythology. So its anyone's guess! Though I think its a safe bet that it has Hindu origins since the Hindus saw sacred meaning in draped, unstitched fabrics.
But if you're talking about today, yes, sari is an Indian dress. Pakistan's national dress, officially and in practice, is the shalwar kameez.

Have just spoken to my friend and she confirms that the lady I was thinking about was the president's daughter, not his wife, who was his hostess and travelled with him, and that she wore both saris and shalwar kameez.

Again, my friend says that in her younger days Ms. Bhutto also wore saris, as did her mother. She gave up when she entered politics. ( I am still confused as to why she would have to do this ). There seems to be some sort of statement being made here which passes me by.

Actually Benazir was wearing shalwak kameez way before she entered politics. That I am sure of. I have seen tons of pictures. Both from and before her marriage. Pictures of her youth. Perhaps its difficult for me to explain it to a non-Pakistani, but there is no "statement" there, trust me:) No political significance. But even if that had been the case, a sari is very impractical, especially for a Pakistani PM who is always travelling, making speeches in the hot weather all over the place etc. Ease of mobility is perhaps one of the biggest reasons the shalwar kameez took off when it was introduced centuries ago by central asian/turkish invaders.
Same thing with Benazir's mother Nusrat, she is seen almost always in shalwar kameez. Perhaps she wore the sari during the early days of her marriage. That would again be explained by the early time-frame.
I guess what Im trying to say is that personal preference and social change is the key here. As the shalwar kameez became more fashionable, it made sense for many women to replace their saris. Maybe this quote from the shalwar kameez article will help illustrate what Im saying:

In Pakistan, among the smart set, the sari had ruled the formal social scene for decades. It was not until the 1980s that the shalwar kameez really came into its own, increasingly replacing the sari as formal wear. Already the national dress, this outfit rapidly evolved towards greater elegance of material, cut, design and embroidery and came to be considered absolutely adequate for even the most formal of occasions, including weddings.
A diplomat's wife recalls returning from a Europe posting in 1984 and attending a cousin's wedding in Lahore, dressed in her most ornate sari. "To my dismay, there was no other sari-clad person in a crowd of 500. I was surrounded by women resplendent in shalwar kameez suits made of chiffon, brocade, organza, lace, 'tissue' and silk, exquisitely designed and embroidered with gold and silver thread, zari sequins, and beads. So much for my sari!"

So maybe this will help you understand the social transformation and significance. Politics doesnt have anything do with it. While everyone was wearing different forms of shalwar kameez for decades, the sari was still big in the formal scene. And that changed by the 1980s. Which is why if you look at old tv footage from the 50s, 60s, 70s, all the women are wearing shalwar kameez and formal wear like ghararas, lehngas etc. It was only on the social formal scene that the sari was dominant and even then, among the more upwardly mobile.

The pictures I have seen in magazines such as Point de Vue or Hello have shown them in either western dress or saris, but maybe they dress differently when they are in Pakistan.

All of this has been very interesting and you have done a lot of work. Thank you. I hope no-one is upset with either of us for going off topic but I am sure other people have learnt as much as I have from your posts. :)

yes I've seen pics of Begum Inaara wearing beautiful bright coloured saris on formal events.
And it wasnt work I assure you. Just a lot of typing
Still, the topic is one of my favourites and I'll still be happy to send you pics via pm if I find something interesting.

[Humera]

Originally Posted by La la

The henna parties in Arab countries aren't just about applying henna on hands either. I'm most familiar with the Moroccan henna parties but I know the others also have their unique rituals and deeper purposes.

im sure they are.
I was just pointing out the differences betwee ME and Pakistani/Asian ceremonies (Mehndi, mayoun etc)
The similiarity goes only as far as the henna and thats about it.