Prince Hassan & Princess Sarvath- News and Pictures II

[Reina]

To me, PSarvath is very beautiful. But you know, how would a modest person like her be comfortable being a queen? Would not she face alot of criticisim from the upper classes for not 'representing' them by not dressing 'haute couture' and the like?

[Humera]

Just like Rania gets criticism for wearing too much couture?
There's got to be a happy medium.
But it seems to me that women in such situations can never please everybody. And they shouldn't try to either. They cant be all things to all people.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Reina

To me, PSarvath is very beautiful. But you know, how would a modest person like her be comfortable being a queen? Would not she face alot of criticisim from the upper classes for not 'representing' them by not dressing 'haute couture' and the like?

This takes us back to the discussion some weeks back of Princess Sarvath's family. In actual fact, apart from Queen Dina, Princess Sarvath is perhaps the one of most 'upper class' of the women who married into the JRF. Even someone like Queen Noor, whose family did well in the US ie father in the State Department, private schools etc. family were originally economic immigrants from the Lebanon and Ireland, I believe. In today's Jordan, there is no aristocracy of ' upper class' as such. There are some people of good bedouin tribal background (just as there are simple bedouin families as well) but in the large majority, it is a society where people have made money and therefore aquired the trappings of wealth within the last two generations or less. Princess Sarvath grew up in a family where you found both the perks of old money and modern political achievement. ( elite foreign education, beautiful old homes, servants, first class travel, security, moving in the corridors of power, many family memebers who were movers and shakers and people who were listened for much of the 20th century etc) ) So perhaps she was not impressed by the glamourous lifestyle of being a princess. There is no doubt, if in material terms you were to compare the sort of lifestyle that her mother describes in her books, with the lifestyle that prevailed in Jordan at the same time, even for the royal family, she came from a much more sophisticated background than the family she married into, despite their illustrious 'pedigree'. Sad to say, but many of the 'upper' classes in Jordan are shallow. They represent first generation money and the only yardstick they have to judge people by are outward trappings that they understand. I have some people complain that when Princess Sarvath appeared next to her husband in some foreign country dressed in a sari or was giving a speech wearing her traditional dress, people wouldn't know which country she was respresenting, as if by wearing western dress she would seem more Jordanian. But I agree with Humera, it is difficult for these women to be all things to all people. Maybe she is much happier now out of the direct limelight.

[shelley]

Further to my post above. I think that things like 'class' and 'background' are probably not part of the modern, merit based world, and are certainly not very politically correct as such. However, in developing countries,where there are such big difference is lifestyles due to which 'class' someone happens to be born into ( unlike say Scandanavia or other northern European countries) it is perhaps better to have people ( male or female) who marry into ruling/governing families who have been exposed to a certain amount of privilege and wealth in their own family background. They are less likely to get their heads turned by having access to things that they never had before, and or having possesions that they have only aquired through marriage.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by shelley

I think that things like 'class' and 'background' are probably not part of the modern, merit based world, and are certainly not very politically correct as such. However, in developing countries,where there are such big difference is lifestyles due to which 'class' someone happens to be born into ( unlike say Scandanavia or other northern European countries) it is perhaps better to have people ( male or female) who marry into ruling/governing families who have been exposed to a certain amount of privilege and wealth in their own family background. They are less likely to get their heads turned by having access to things that they never had before, and or having possesions that they have only aquired through marriage.

This is insightful, Shelley. A corollary seems to be, from my own experience living and working in developing countries, that there is less upward (and even downward) mobility in developing countries, perhaps due in part to discrimination, in part to the lack of a merit-based advancement system (Jordan is still very wasta based), but also to the reality that there genuinely is less near-term economic opportunity because of high unemployment and other factors. So there is less fluidity among the classes. People born into poverty in the developing world have fewer opportunities to climb out of it, whereas many born to poor circumstances in the West believe that, with education and hard work, they will rise.

I think your analysis also helps explain why QN and especially QR both became uber-obsessed with physical appearances and material possessions when they became queens, whereas P. Sarvath has remained grounded and more modest. But I also suspect there are just personality differences. I have a hunch that P. Sarvath is more sensitive to how many people in Jordan are doing without and is not comfortable with such conspicuous consumption when there are so many have-nots in her midst.

[Reina]

Do you think that Jordanians look down on Westerners, inclduing Americans...also what about AMericans who are minorities?

[Humera]

Princess Sarvath opens Exhibition

Looks like she's wearing a shalwar kameez. A little too sober and somewhat out of date, the kameez is too long and so are the sleeves, but I think she's not one to follow trends just for the sake of it. Although I do know that some of the top Pakistani designers design for her.
She seems to prefer darker shades.

[papillon]

It looks like P. Sarvath's Web site is now up and running, although I'm not yet able to view the Activities Album section.

Link to P. Sarvath's Web site

[shelley]

Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~

Princess Sarvath opens Exhibition

Looks like she's wearing a shalwar kameez. A little too sober and somewhat out of date, the kameez is too long and so are the sleeves, but I think she's not one to follow trends just for the sake of it. Although I do know that some of the top Pakistani designers design for her.
She seems to prefer darker shades.

I thought that one of the good things about shalwar kameez and saris is that basically, they do not change very much. I have seen magazines from India and Pakistan, and yes, there are some very funky new outfits, but equally, I have seen women out and about wearing the same sort of styles and cuts year afer year. What I mean is, it does not seem as black and white as western clothes ? Would someone of Princess Sarvath's age (nearly 60!) wear really trendy outfits ? You are from Pakistan. aren' tyou ? What do the older ladies of your family do ? Just asking :) ?? Also, it looks like a day function, with a mixed audience in a public place. Should she not be a little sober ?

[Humera]

Originally Posted by shelley

I thought that one of the good things about shalwar kameez and saris is that basically, they do not change very much. I have seen magazines from India and Pakistan, and yes, there are some very funky new outfits, but equally, I have seen women out and about wearing the same sort of styles and cuts year afer year. What I mean is, it does not seem as black and white as western clothes ? Would someone of Princess Sarvath's age (nearly 60!) wear really trendy outfits ? You are from Pakistan. aren' tyou ? What do the older ladies of your family do ? Just asking :) ?? Also, it looks like a day function, with a mixed audience in a public place. Should she not be a little sober ?

You're right about saris. They basically dont change, I mean the style in which they're worn.
But the shalwar kameez does. That's what makse it so versatile.
Kameezes can be long, short, or of medium length. Shalwars can be loose and traditional, or straight like a trouser or snug like capris.
I do agree that someone of Sarvath's age and taste wont just follow trends. But I should mention that the shalwar kameez today looks very different from what it looked like in the 60s, 70s, and 80s etc. Also cuts and patterns change drastically over time. Just like in the west every decade brings its own unique fashion trends. Women in Pakistan buy new clothes every season. You'll rarely see a woman (of upper, middle, or even the lower class) wear the same clothes for more than a few seasons. So naturally the styles change often.

The outfit Sarvath is wearing in the last pics has too much going on at the same time, the fabric seems to be thick and is dark on top of that. The full-length sleeves with the buttoned collar are too much. The fabric of the dupatta (scarf) is too heavy as well. Isnt it pretty hot in Jordan at the moment?
She could've worn something much lighter and yet just as sober.
Now my mom is in her 50s and I can tell you with much certainty that she's got a better shalwar kameez wardrobe than Sarvath. Of course it wont be fair comparing them to each other since my mom wears shalwar kameez all the time (she is in Pakistan at the moment). But even older women like my mom and my aunts wear colourful prints and the latest styles in Pakistan. There's a difference between a fad and a trend. A woman in the 21st century isn't going to dress like she's living in the 80s or even 90s just because she's of a certain age. She can be elegant, sober, even conservative and still be fashion forward.
Princess Diana wore some very beautiful shalwar kameezes.
I don't mean all of this as a criticism of P. Sarvath. I just wanted to make it clear that her taste in clothing, particularly the shalwar kameez and even saris is her own and doesnt reflect what's going on in the Pakistani fashion scene or even how Pakistani women dress. She has her own particular taste and style which can be old-fashioned at times but that's what she's comfortable with, which is perfectly fine.

I thought I'd post a couple of pics. Sarvath wore a white shalwar kameez to Prince Hamzah's second wedding reception in May of last year.
Now I was a little confused with the third pic (taken in July 2004). It looks like it might be the same shalwar kameez as the one she wore to Hamzah's reception but the pattern on the cloth is different. I actually like this on Sarvath. But honestly I have never seen a kameez this long! While both short and longer lengths are popular right now, the longest kameez is supposed to be just at or below the knee. The shortest ofcourse wont look good on someone of Sarvath's age. I think we definately see Sarvath's own unique touch in this outfit
I like the last pic very much. Though we cant see her entire outfit and it is black and white.

[Humera]

Now since i dont have pics of my mom
But I thought I'd post pics of Sehba Musharraf, the first lady of Pakistan.
She's a grandmother and obviously close to P. Sarvath in age.
She is also more conservative with her outfits, and appropriately so for her age and position but her outfits have the right mix of elegance, colour, prints etc.

[Humera]

now styles like these would look good on Sarvath. They're very simple. Add long sleeves and change the straight capri-like shalwar to a more traditional one, maybe lengthen the kameez and they'll be perfect for someone of Sarvath's age.

[shelley]

This is getting very interesting ! I showed the photograpghs you have posted to a Pakistani friend who has lived in Jordan and has seen the Princess out and about and this is what she said:

Firstly, ninety percent of the time Princess Sarvath wears saris,with lovely pashmina or other shawls, and sometimes, if it is very formal and a church or airport situation abroad, she will wear a coat over the sari.Looking through her mother's authobiograpghy, there is not a single picture of her in anything other than a sari, so I guess that is what that family wears from choice.

This lady says she has never ever seen Princess S. in what would be called a 'traditional' shalwar kameez such as Mrs.Musharraf is shown wearing. If wearing kameezes, she wears them with what I am told is called a churidar pyjama ( the very tight pants with folds at the ankles) and I believe that for older women these usually have longer kameezes, either straight cut or somewhat flared. You are right to say that she has developed her own style, and often wears a 'sherwani' ( A Nehru coat ) style kameez with either straight pants or the churidar. She also wears 'ghararas' (long flared skirts with a short tunic) occasionally and apparantly that is what she wore to Prince Hamzah's party, and what she is wearing in the final black and white picture you have posted. There is a full length picture of her taken at the same sitting which is shown in a collection of the Pakistani photographer Tapu Javeri's work in which it can be seen very clearly that she is wearing a 'gharara'. In the summer she does occasionally wear the sorts of styles you have shown in your final post, for more private occasions, and her daughters often wear this sort of thing. :)

Lastly, I looked up the weather in Amman yesterday and it was quite cold, about 8 degrees, so I guess she would want to wear something quite warm. From all of this, I seem to think that she has evolved her equivalant of a pants suit. Wharever, it is all very different, that is for sure !

[shelley]

I have just gone through the El Hassan family album, and yes, it is right. There is not a single photograpgh of Princess Sarvath , even as a child, wearing shalwar kameez. There are pictures of her and her sisters in ghararas, and there are photographs of the El Hassan girls in traditional dress, but they are also either in ghararas or 'churidars'. Very interesting. Why do you think this is so ? S

[Monalisa]

Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~

Just like Rania gets criticism for wearing too much couture

Rania is not only criticized for wearing a lot of haute couture oufits but more for her irresponsable beahaviour like an egocentric star who runs for cameras!

Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~

There's got to be a happy medium.
But it seems to me that women in such situations can never please everybody. And they shouldn't try to either. They cant be all things to all people.

I don't think that sarvat is that out of fashion,i've seen many pictures of her with chanel and Hérmès handbags,and chanel shoes,anyway if she bacame a queen, she would find a relooker to relook her,like how Rania did !,

but the criticism is about her still wearing pakistani saris while she's representing the jordanian people and never wore something jordanian!

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Monalisa

I don't think that sarvat is that out of fashion,i've seen many pictures of her with chanel and Hérmès handbags,and chanel shoes,anyway if she bacame a queen, she would find a relooker to relook her,like how Rania did !,

but the criticism is about her still wearing pakistani saris while she's representing the jordanian people and never wore something jordanian!

Interestingly, I have noticed her Chanel handbags in pictures, but never Hermes but that is just a detail. I am sure she wears good bags and shoes and why not ? I don't think anyone is expecting her to dress from thrift stores.

A more relevent point. Has anyone seen Princess Sarvath's contemporary in the family, Princess Basma, in 'traditional' Jordanian dress ? When I first came to Jordan, no elegant woman ever wore traditional clothes at all. At that stage, it was either western dress for all urban upper class or middle class women and only women from the rural or low socio-economic backgrounds who wore the traditional dresses. There was no such thing as the coat dress and hijab that you see now all over Jordan. This changed slowly in the nineties as a few designers started adapting the traditional dress to modern needs, really as an answer to very drab, so called 'Islamic' dress but has really only taken off in the last ten years or so, and even then, is still only worn for formal occasions on a regular basis by Queen Noor, who again has evolved her own style ( based on a more Gulf design, and curiously, often made up from sari material !) So at the time when Jordanians may have objected to Princess Sarvath not appearing 'Jordanian' they meant, not appearing 'more western' in her dress.At least, that is how it looked to me. The traditional Hashemite dress is different again to all these styles, but no woman of the family ever wears it on a regular basis. So this whole dress issue seems complicated and fraught with possibilty for misunderstanding :(

[Monalisa]

Originally Posted by shelley

Interestingly, I have noticed her Chanel handbags in pictures, but never Hermes but that is just a detail. I am sure she wears good bags and shoes and why not ? I don't think anyone is expecting her to dress from thrift stores.

A more relevent point. Has anyone seen Princess Sarvath's contemporary in the family, Princess Basma, in 'traditional' Jordanian dress ? When I first came to Jordan, no elegant woman ever wore traditional clothes at all. At that stage, it was either western dress for all urban upper class or middle class women and only women from the rural or low socio-economic backgrounds who wore the traditional dresses. There was no such thing as the coat dress and hijab that you see now all over Jordan. This changed slowly in the nineties as a few d