Prince Hassan and Princess Sarvath: News and Picture Thread, Part 1

[shelley]

Originally Posted by shelley

Prince Hassan always brought a cerebral take to problems. He did not posture nor " play to the gallery". Maybe that was his weakness, in a flamboyant Arab world, and I believe would also have been his strength as a Head of State.

I am seeing things or was there a comment from Eliza about this that vanished ?

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Veram98

You are (all) welcome. I really appreciated Robins' book as a balanced analysis of Jordan's development and wanted to share at least this especially interesting part of it.



It seems that at least a big part of the (Trans)Jordanian elite and upper middles classes don't really like a foreign queen, may she be British, American or Pakistani (or a Palestinian 'refugee'). I think they do not accept that the Hashemites obviously prefer foreign commoners as consorts to their own daughters.
But I met also people in Jordan who actually would prefer a converted Western to a Muslim born Pakistani queen, and was told by a journalist living in the country that this opinion is shared by more people I would imagine and has a lot to do with the fact that Jordanians are used to Pakistanis as foreign workers for low status jobs and house maids, at the bottom of the hierarchical society of Jordan, while Westerners enjoy a much higher standing.

Poofh. On re-reading this,I realise that Jordanian siciety is even more confused and more shallow than I had first realised :( . They are willing to kill to go to a school run by a foreigner ( actually why did a foreigner have to take the bull by the horns and kick start the Jordanian educational system ?) What were all those wonderful "(Trans)Jordanian elite and upper middles classes " doing when the Jordanian schools suffered over the board and the rich just turned their backs on the problem and send their kids out of the country ? I do hope for their sakes that when these same Jordanians find themselves in the tender care of a doctor from the sub-continent at Mayo or MD Anderson or the like they do not suffer a set back, or perhaps I hope they do Sorry, not nice, but I think there is something fundamentally sick in Jordanian society, ( I am sorry, Jordanians ) and sometimes I think they deserve what will surely be coming to them unless they buck up their ideas.

[elizahawthorne]

Originally Posted by shelley

I am seeing things or was there a comment from Eliza about this that vanished ?

you're right...I'm the one who made it vanish (I'm a magician:o), because I thought it was kinda silly...all I said was that I agree with you, I believe my exact words were "I second that"

-Eliza

[shelley]

Originally Posted by elizahawthorne

you're right...I'm the one who made it vanish (I'm a magician:o), because I thought it was kinda silly...all I said was that I agree with you, I believe my exact words were "I second that"

-Eliza

That's okay. So long as I am not seeing things. I thought as I was seeing red I was seeing things as well !

[elizahawthorne]

Originally Posted by shelley

That's okay. So long as I am not seeing things. I thought as I was seeing red I was seeing things as well !

LOL:) ...as long as I'm not the one who's making you see red :p

-Eliza

[shelley]

Originally Posted by shelley

Sorry, not nice, but I think there is something fundamentally sick in Jordanian society, ( I am sorry, Jordanians ) and sometimes I think they deserve what will surely be coming to them unless they buck up their ideas.

Certainly not nice of me, and for that I apologise, to all the thousands of nice, good Jordanians, but I do think that the 'elite' (by the way, what constitutes 'elite' in Jordan ? Money ?) Have to rethink many of their attitudes, not least the manner in which they treat those poor despised domestics and sweat shop workers from Sri Lanka, the Phillipines and the Sub-continent. I am told that there are some terrible human rights violations going on in day to day life in so called 'normal' elitest homes in Jordan.

[shelley]

I have already posted this in another thread but thought I would post this excerpt here as it touches on Prince Hassan and Princess Sarvath:

Copyright Washington Times Library Apr 19, 1999
"Though King Abdullah swiftly reshuffled the Jordanian government in favor of some liberal politicians and technocrats and reaffirmed his commitment to his deceased father's policies, the political ramifications of the sudden change of succession to the throne of Washington's strategic ally remain an open question. Stunned by King Hussein's unexpected dismissal of his brother Hassan, trained as crown prince and successor for 34 years and well regarded in the Arab world, some Arabs see the last-minute switch as an American-inspired ploy originally designed to propel Queen Noor's son Hamzeh, 18, subsequently elevated to crown prince, directly onto the throne. Jordanians were equally shocked by the trumped-up charges against Hassan, whose wife Princess Sarvath was allegedly redecorating the palace when a kitchen was renovated for the visit of Germany's President Roman Herzog traveling with his native cook......"

[shelley]

Maybe my post No 35 should have been on this thread and not the one about King Abdullah & Queen Rania News and Pcitures Part II. But its sometimes confusing to where to put things.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by shelley

Maybe my post No 35 should have been on this thread and not the one about King Abdullah & Queen Rania News and Pcitures Part II. But its sometimes confusing to where to put things.

Here it is:

Another Petra Exhibition; another time:

Copyright Washington Times Library Dec 11, 1998
Gridlock on local roadways can stop even a princess in her tracks, but gridlock in succession to a throne is another matter altogether.

Asked her impression of Washington, Jordan's Crown Princess Sarvath El Hassan bin Talal, a petite, personable Cambridge University graduate here on a speaking tour, answered without hesitation: "Actually, traffic. And the unusually warm weather."

The car taking her to Wednesday's reception at the National Geographic Society to celebrate this month's cover story on Petra was stopped by commotion from the ceremony to light the White House Christmas tree.

"So I got out of the car and walked."

An unusual royal. But unusual, too, is the situation regarding who will rule Jordan in future generations, with many possible successors to the throne. King Hussein, 63, has been under treatment for cancer at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., since July and will be returning home soon, having been assured he is cured. His younger brother, Crown Prince Hassan bin Talal, husband of Princess Sarvath, has been groomed to rule should the unexpected occur. The talk is about who rightfully claims the crown after him.

"Given its importance in the Middle East today, Jordan is one of few places in the world - Saudi Arabia is another - where such a medieval drama could play out and where a royal succession would count," remarked a guest who asked not to be identified.

Jordanian Ambassador Marwan Jamil Muasher naturally was reluctant to address the subject, as was Najeeb Halaby, father of Jordan's Queen Noor, who British newspapers have said is maneuvering subtly to have her young son take over one day instead of her in-laws' children.

"It's not right to discuss talk about such things at this time," Mr. Muasher said, shifting conversation to the importance of 2,000- year-old Petra as a tourist site attracting "1,500 people a day. We are limiting the number. Most people come taking a tour to different cities." Israelis (who once risked death to gaze upon the fabled site), may now visit as well, he noted.

In one corner of the gallery, two women dressed in Bedouin clothing were making pita bread over an upturned wok that simulated heated stones over a dessert campfire; across the room, a duo played sonorous tunes on the oud and tabla. Adventurous souls reclined on colorful carpets and cushions inside a giant Bedouin tent, beneath a spotlighted portrait of King Hussein. The smell of cardamom hung in the air throughout the exhibit "Petra: Jordan's City in the Rock," which was enclosed by replicas of red sandstone walls and the famous columns that distinguish one of the world's most dramatic historic sites.

Several Jordanians described the popular guest of honor as "a princess on the go." After a visit with Jordanian-Americans in Detroit to help at a school fund-raiser, she had spoken at both Johns Hopkins University's Nitze School of Advanced International Studies and the American Enterprise Institute "about the women of Islam." And what does a princess - the mother of four children and the grandmother of four - do in her spare time?

"I work out. I do needlepoint. I cook." She also has started a teacher-training college, among other projects. "We have a 100 percent literacy rate for children, 92 percent for women - one of the highest literacy rates in the Middle East," she noted.

She did not see her brother-in-law on this trip. "I was going to, but he is in the last phase of treatment and couldn't talk to visitors," she said.

"The two brothers are very close," volunteered former Protocol Chief Selwa W. "Lucky" Roosevelt, pointing out that "unlike in Europe, royal succession in the Arab world is not necessarily from son to son. They have their own way, and usually it works out for the best."

Jordanian-born Samia Farouki discounted gossip about a rivalry between the princess and Queen Noor: "Both women are intelligent and have been following different interests. They both want to make a difference and will think of the future of the country. . . . I'm sure {Queen Noor} will create her own role. It depends on how clever she is. After all, she has the future of her four children to think about."

What I find interesting about this article is that in it P. Sarvath is described as "personable" and "popular," and, less than two months later, I guess she lost her charm and charisma in some sudden total character reversal and became the Crown Princess from hell. Something stinks to high heaven. :(

[papillon]

Originally Posted by shelley

Maybe the late king had a whacky idea of what was an April Fool's joke .

Well, it's not very amusing, is it?! :(

[papillon]

Originally Posted by shelley

Prince Hassan always brought a cerebral take to problems. He did not posture nor " play to the gallery". Maybe that was his weakness, in a flamboyant Arab world, and I believe would also have been his strength as a Head of State.

Me, too. Not to sound completely grim, but the world is a mess. . .we need good thinkers, good problem solvers in positions of leadership, not entertainers and poseurs. :(

[papillon]

Originally Posted by Veram98

It seems that at least a big part of the (Trans)Jordanian elite and upper middles classes don't really like a foreign queen, may she be British, American or Pakistani (or a Palestinian 'refugee'). I think they do not accept that the Hashemites obviously prefer foreign commoners as consorts to their own daughters.
But I met also people in Jordan who actually would prefer a converted Western to a Muslim born Pakistani queen, and was told by a journalist living in the country that this opinion is shared by more people I would imagine and has a lot to do with the fact that Jordanians are used to Pakistanis as foreign workers for low status jobs and house maids, at the bottom of the hierarchical society of Jordan, while Westerners enjoy a much higher standing.

Thanks for this explanation, Veram98. So it's a combination of both insularity and racism. . .quite an unenlightened, simplistic world view. What a shame! :(

[papillon]

Originally Posted by shelley

Unfortunately, some Jordanians are obsessed with the west in the most ridiculous ways ( hence for instance, the desperate desire amongst many Jordanian girls to have blonde hair ).

This is apparent to any remotely perceptive Western visitor to Jordan. Sometimes the effect is even unwittingly comical, albeit verging on sad. During my first visit to Jordan, within a couple days of my arrival, I was unexpectedly invited to attend the closing ceremony of the Arab Children's Congress at the Royal Cultural Centre. Come to think of it, probably the only reason I was invited is because I am a Westerner, obvious from my appearance. Anyway, for those who may not know, this is usually QN's event, but she had a recital to attend that same night, so she deputized P. Alia (Faisal). Almost more fascinating to me than the closing ceremony itself was the people watching. I was one of very few Westerners in attendance, but many of the other women there were certainly trying to look Western. . .lots of bleach in the hair, some cropped noses, stylish but slightly-off-the-mark Western clothing, heavy accessorizing, very theatrical makeup. To my eyes, there was something slightly drag queenish about the overall effect, but it made me a little sad, too. Most of these women were quite attractive underneath all that and would probably look much more beautiful if they just worked with their natural assets.

To try to understand both these remarks I think you have to try and understand the makeup of Jordanian society itself.

I'm trying, Shelley, I'm trying. :o

Princess Sarvath grew up surrounded by the trappings of old wealth and modern success. She was difficult to fathom for your average Jordanian whose only contact with the sub-continent were unfortunately the migrant workers who were thronging the Arab world in search of employment. This was largely because the Jordanians were by and large unaware of what the Indian subcontinental culture was or stood for. So then the Jordanians had this “Pakistani” who didn’t fit into any mould they could understand.

But it's a shame more people didn't use her presence in the country to expand their notions of the subcontinent, rather than dismiss her in ways that are disrespectful to her and shortchange themselves. It's a missed opportunity, as I see it, to enlarge their own view of the world.

( Big flashy villas, big flashy latest model cars, big flashy jewelry are all the recognizable benchmarks of success in Jordan )

Sorry if I offend anyone, but this is such a tacky take on success, in my view.

As I write this, it occurs to me , that it says something for Princess Sarvath’s strength of character that despite everything, she kept her marriage and her health intact ( unlike many other ladies we hear of in similar positions, Princess Diana, the Duchess of York, Crown Princess of Japan and so on).

Lesser mortals would've cracked under the pressure and withered under the harsh scrutiny. She must have her head screwed on very straight indeed.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by shelley

On rereading this, it makes me realise that Jordanian 'society'is even more shallow and topsy turvy than I realised. I wonder why so many of these
" Jordanian elite and upper middles classes " are willing to entrust their education to a school run by a foreigner. Actually, why did it take a foreigner to kick start education in Jordan ? The same Jordanians werefor years satisfied with a substandard local education and the very rich just sent their kids out of the country. I just hope that those same so called elite don't have a setback when find themselves in Mayo or some other top clinic in the States where they have gone in search of better healthcare than is available at home, and they find themselves being treated by Gasp ! Yee Gads ! and Gadzooks !! someone form the subcontinent.

I'm trying not to be too judgmental, but this view really offends my sensibilities, especially if it is coming from the upper middle and elite classes of society which, one would think, should be better educated and more informed and possibly better traveled. Wherever on the "outsider" continuum one might land--whether it's alongside P. Sarvath or in the direction of the Westerners--it's an uncomfortable situation. Who wants to be either loathed or liked on the basis of country of origin, skin color, or some other factor over which one has no control?! No one I know. :( Hopefully, these views will evolve in the right direction, soon I hope.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by shelley

I thought as I was seeing red I was seeing things as well !

Settle down, woman, settle down! :)

[papillon]

Originally Posted by shelley

I do think that the 'elite' (by the way, what constitutes 'elite' in Jordan ? Money ?) Have to rethink many of their attitudes.

Yes, that is probably the measure of elite in Jordan, but let's hope that view of the world expands for them, too.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by shelley

I have already posted this in another thread but thought I would post this excerpt here as it touches on Prince Hassan and Princess Sarvath:

Copyright Washington Times Library Apr 19, 1999
"Though King Abdullah swiftly reshuffled the Jordanian government in favor of some liberal politicians and technocrats and reaffirmed his commitment to his deceased father's policies, the political ramifications of the sudden change of succession to the throne of Washington's strategic ally remain an open question. Stunned by King Hussein's unexpected dismissal of his brother Hassan, trained as crown prince and successor for 34 years and well regarded in the Arab world, some Arabs see the last-minute switch as an American-inspired ploy originally designed to propel Queen Noor's son Hamzeh, 18, subsequently elevated to crown prince, directly onto the throne. Jordanians were equally shocked by the trumped-up charges against Hassan, whose wife Princess Sarvath was allegedly redecorating the palace when a kitchen was renovated for the visit of Germany's President Roman Herzog traveling with his native cook......"

I think this is one of the few journalists from that era who got it right. P. Hassan is well regarded, and the charges against the couple were trumped up. I, for one, am glad she chose those terms to describe what happened to these two rather than just accept the reasons for the succession change that were stated at the time.