Prince Hassan and Princess Sarvath: News and Picture Thread, Part 1

[papillon]

Originally Posted by papillon

But this is a mix of business with friendship, and protocol is an undeniable factor.

Was this not understood?!

[Humera]

Originally Posted by papillon

Was this not understood?!

perfectly.
But you seem to have missed the point I made. It isnt protocol to have the monarch and his/her spouse always represent their country at royal weddings. I mentioned that there are many lower profile weddings and other events where junior members of the royal family represent their country. The King and Queen aren't expected to attend all of them. How many weddings did King Hussein and Queen Noor attend together?
Besides, the number of members from a particular royal family at weddings always varies. Like I mentioned before, sometimes it can be just two people, like Princess Sumaya and her hubby at Martha Louise's wedding, or as high as 9 or 10 (Rania, Noor, Muna, Sarvath, Rashid, Alia, Feisal, Ghida, Talal) at Prince Felipe's wedding. And this isnt just the case with Jordanian royals. Its the same with other royal houses. So I dont think there's any strict protocols as to which members must attend a wedding. It all comes down to who the King or Queen choses to represent them.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~

perfectly.
But you seem to have missed the point I made. It isnt protocol to have the monarch and his/her spouse always represent their country at royal weddings. I mentioned that there are many lower profile weddings and other events where junior members of the royal family represent their country. The King and Queen aren't expected to attend all of them. How many weddings did King Hussein and Queen Noor attend together?
Besides, the number of members from a particular royal family at weddings always varies. Like I mentioned before, sometimes it can be just two people, like Princess Sumaya and her hubby at Martha Louise's wedding, or as high as 9 or 10 (Rania, Noor, Muna, Sarvath, Rashid, Alia, Feisal, Ghida, Talal) at Prince Felipe's wedding. And this isnt just the case with Jordanian royals. Its the same with other royal houses. So I dont think there's any strict protocols as to which members must attend a wedding. It all comes down to who the King or Queen choses to represent them.

I think we are on the same page here, Humera. All the things you mention still fall under the rules of protocol (i.e., protocol doesn't just apply to the king and queen).

[shelley]

I think most of us are on the same page, and I am sure that maybe the King does ask Prince Hassan to represent him at royal functions, but equally, I know from some Dutch friends that Prince Hassan and Princess Sarvath are very much regarded there as the 'special' Jordanian friends of the family. They were in Holland 7 times last year : 1 wedding; 2 funerals; 1 shoot; and the rest of the time Prince Hassan had work. Once they all flew from Holland together tothe South of France, and the Dutch and Hassan family are often together in Austria and Italy. Prince H. was accompanied to a talk at Leiden University by the Queen, which is unusual as he is a prince and she a queen. The couple also came to stay with the Queen for a night privately after Prince Bernhard died. On each occasion, they stay with the Queen in her private palace. Also, all the El Hassan children were at the various weddings, and I believe Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien spent their honey moon in Jordan as Prince Hassan's guests. So obviously there must be a deep personal friendship here. Also, the Prince and Princess are apparantly 'regulars' at the Queen of England's private homes ; Sandringham, Windsor, Balmoral. So I think there are both official and private connections in many cases. What I think must have happened, in many instances the first contacts were official, and real friendships developed.

I think that also things were not made easy by the different personalities of the two brothers, and also their different marital situation. Princess Muna was very much an outsider, both to royal circles and within Jordan, at a time when royalty tended to marry other royalty, or at least, aristocracy. During this marriage, the king's 'social' circle in Jordan was mainly expatriates, or where the wife was married to an Arab. He mentions as much in his book 'Uneasy Lies the Head'. With Queen Alia, things might have developned differently, but sadly she died too soon. Queen Noor was from a differnt social background than Princess Muna, but her very agressive ( in some people's eyes) almost corporate style, did not find much favour with her royal peers, nor in Jordan, where she did not build up a circle of real friends, despite living there for over twenty years. The king's many children did not get given the chance to make friends with their peers in the same way that Prince Hassan's childrens were, which is only to be expected where step mothers and step children abound.

I think it reflects well on the other royals that they have kept their personal relations intact with Prince Hassan and his family . I am also very sure that it is their way of showing that although whatever happened in Jordan in 1999 was obviously King Hussein's right and perogative to do, but that no one for a minute believed the rubbish that accompanied the trashing of Prince Hassan. King Hussein was hugely respected. If there were even a slight feeling that Prince Hassan had somehow let his brother down, I am sure he and Princess Sarvath would not be welcome, as representatives or in their own right to so many major and minor and private foreign royal functions, nor so appreciated at home. When Prince Hassan was in hospital a couple of years ago, Jordan went crazy. When the news broke, people arrived at the hospital in the middle of the night. There were hundreds of visitors from all over the country and the Arab world for days. The flowers filled every floor of the hospital and spilled out into the road. I guess all this means that the guy is well liked despite everything !

[shelley]

I think that post was too long so I broke it up:

I also think that you cannot underestimate the difference in education and and its affect on the two men. Although he married two western women, King Hussein was essentially much more Arab in his outlook and tastes . King Hussein was superb in all aspects of Arabic culture, but he was not so well educated in western matters. King Abdullah is very comfortable in western matters, but not so well versed in Arab culture ! Prince Hassan was much more cosmopoliton in his lifestyle. He actually is one of the few senior Arab statesmen of whom it can be said that he truly is at home in both worlds. His Arabic and knowledge of Arabic culture, literature history, Islamic texts is unmatched in the Arab world today. Hugely well read in many languages, his western education is also flawless. This is probably why he is in such demand both in the Arab world and elsewhere, both in the media and at meetings and conferences and think tanks. King Hussein's 'hobbies' were also not very 'sociable' He enjoyed watching movies, tinkering with his ham radio, water skiing, rally driving. Prince Hassan is an excellent snow skiier; scuba diver and water skiier; squash player; rider and polo player; has many dans in taekwondo ; he also enjoys hunting. How he managed to find time for these 'hobbies' as well as developing the economy and infrastructure of Modern Jordan, I do not know, but may be he did not waste time in marrying, divorcing, courting, marrying again ! Now, that is nasty of me, but I cannot believe eleven children plus one, and four wives, and running a country, can leave much time over for personal development in other areas. I also think that although the late King's more 'Arab' side should have made things easier for him as far as social relationships with other Arab leaders went, again Queen Noor's very public western style went against them on a personal level.

[Humera]

Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf attends a convocation ceremony at an Islamic University in Islamabad
Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf (front C), former Malaysian prime minister Mahathir Mohamad (front R) and Jordan's Prince Hassan bin Talal (front L) attend a convocation ceremony at an Islamic University in Islamabad March 12, 2005. REUTERS/Faisal Mahmood

You can see Prince Rashid in the background

[papillon]

Originally Posted by shelley

Queen Noor was from a differnt social background than Princess Muna, but her very agressive ( in some people's eyes) almost corporate style, did not find much favour with her royal peers, nor in Jordan, where she did not build up a circle of real friends, despite living there for over twenty years.

I say this as someone who has lived and worked in a number of non-Western cultures. It always looked to me as though QN never really made the adjustment to her adopted land. It's really important to tone down some of the Americanness (people will notice it anyway. . .there's no need to flaunt it), spend more time doing what is considered somewhat wasteful in the States but is crucial in those parts and that is engaging in sociable chatter (sometimes for quite a long time) before launching into your agenda, and value relationships over transactions. Otherwise, it's just grating to the locals. But I'm not sure QN was equipped with good enough intercultural skills to be sensitive to that, and maybe she even thought that, since she is a queen, people would just have to learn to adjust to her rather than the other way around.

I think it reflects well on the other royals that they have kept their personal relations intact with Prince Hassan and his family . I am also very sure that it is their way of showing that although whatever happened in Jordan in 1999 was obviously King Hussein's right and perogative to do, but that no one for a minute believed the rubbish that accompanied the trashing of Prince Hassan.

Amen. Same for his wife, who also had to bear her share of unfair criticism. That people who know the couple well did not buy all the official reasons cited for the succession change is, to me, a strong clue that they were fabrications designed to distract from whatever the real reasons were. I think that is a great untold story. Some of us can imagine and speculate as to what the real reasons were, but it would be wonderful if some investigative journalist or historian or doctoral student took on this subject, did the research, and let the rest of us know the truth about the 1999 succession change.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by shelley

but may be he did not waste time in marrying, divorcing, courting, marrying again ! Now, that is nasty of me, but I cannot believe eleven children plus one, and four wives, and running a country, can leave much time over for personal development in other areas. I also think that although the late King's more 'Arab' side should have made things easier for him as far as social relationships with other Arab leaders went, again Queen Noor's very public western style went against them on a personal level.

Well, yeah, it's a little nasty, but it's still a valid point. I think one of P. Hassan's great "secret" weapons is the strength of his nuclear family. Anyone who is a product of a broken home knows that, in most cases, even one divorce is completely chaotic and traumatic. KH had two plus an untimely death of a spouse, then all those children from various mothers to try to unite. That just had to be a huge drain on his time and reserves. P. Hassan had none of that baggage. In fact, I think he draws strength from his family. . .they are not a drain on him. So that leaves much more time and psychic energy to pursue not only other interests, but also to develop and nurture solid relationships outside the family.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~

You can see Prince Rashid in the background

Good eye, Humera. I hadn't noticed.

[papillon]

From The Daily Star

Jordan is the Palestinians' Natural Partner
Commentary By Prince El-Hassan bin Talal
March 25, 2005

The attempts now being made to revive the "road map" to a final settlement of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and the creation of a Palestinian state are at only a preliminary stage. The recent international conference in London, aimed at supporting reforms in the Palestinian Authority and shoring up support for renewed negotiations with Israel, is one of those preliminary efforts.

I suggest, however, that it is not mediation that is needed: what the Palestinians need now are partners. In their conflict with Israel, their natural and historical partner has always been Jordan.

That partnership was never broken. Articles 3 and 8 of Jordan's peace treaty with Israel refer explicitly to the refugee problem as one of the major issues still to be resolved, as well as citing the unresolved status of trans-border arrangements and of Jerusalem. Jordan is not outside the peace process, but an essential part of it.

The original road map sketched out at the Madrid Conference in 1991 envisaged two stages: the final settlement of disputes between the Palestinians and Israel, and the permanent settlement of regional conflicts. Jordan's participation in both stages is crucial.

Indeed, the interests of the inhabitants of the three areas - Palestine, Jordan and Israel - are so intertwined that their representatives will have no choice but to come to terms with one another if negotiations are to succeed. For example, the refugee problem cannot be separated from wider problems concerning the integration of all inhabitants of Palestine, Jordan and Israel - where the refugees are most numerous - into civil societies where they may enjoy equal legal status and equal access to economic and cultural opportunities.

Such integration cannot be achieved on a unilateral basis but only by programs adopted by the host and donor countries in cooperation with each other; nor can it be achieved in conditions where there is complete political and administrative separation between the populations which places them under exclusive controls and fails to acknowledge the human needs of community and conviviality.

The economic and social development of the three areas demands an integrated approach to the exploitation of energy and other natural resources, particularly water. Without agreements on the conditions of such exploitation there will remain imbalances in living conditions and the persistence of rival claims with their potential for future conflicts.

A recognized community of water and energy interests and programs for their joint exploitation, for example in the rift valley, may lead, as was the motivation for the first stage of European integration, to a wider integration on a wider scale in the region.

The status of Jerusalem is still an unresolved question on both the local and international scenes. That question was specifically listed in the Jordanian-Israeli peace treaty. The recognition by the three parties of the primacy of the moral and spiritual over the political importance of the city could lead to arrangements on the ground which satisfy the legitimate claims of the three Abrahamic faiths, and subsume the eventual political status of the city to this moral authority.

The alternative to an accepted resolution of their problems by the three parties is the permanent fragmentation of the Holy Land, which can only lead to more confrontation and violent conflicts. The shadow of such fragmentation, with its unfathomable perils, now hangs over Iraq. In this troubled part of the world, the choice is, quite simply, one between regionalism and barbarism.

Prince El-Hassan bin Talal is the president of the Club of Rome, moderator of the World Conference of Religions for Peace, and the president of the Arab Thought Forum. This commentary is published in cooperation with Project Syndicate (www.project-syndicate.org).

[shelley]

My goodness, I am impressed with myself ! I was trying to locate some Jordanian opinion on Prince Hassan, as sadly it seems that many of our Jordanian members are not posting these days, and found the following extract in the archives from a post by Alia Musallam ( actually in a thread on Prince Hamzah ; it is actually very interesting to read some of these old posts in the light of recent events ) For many of you, it is just repeating what you have already read, and for that I apologise, but for some of the others, it may put things in a slightly different light. And if I have committed a no no, I am sorry, and will not do it again:

"As for whether there is a place for Prince Hassan and his family in Jordan, I think that is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. If you knew what you were talking about and sincerely respected the JRF then you too would realise that the only place for him is Jordan. The people still love him, probably more so now as he no longer wields any influence, and he has done so much for our country, far more than than QNour or QRania will have ever done. He was his late majesty's closest friend and companion, his trusted ally above all others, but we all know how the story ended, and have different ideas as to why. This does not mean that he should have to leave, he has served his country all his life and the least one could do for him is show him some respect. As for PSarvath being Queen, I think that she would have made a wonderful queen. She speaks beautiful Arabic, bilingual Urdu and English, fluent French and quite a bit of German I believe. She was brought up all over the world, her parents were both highly intelligent and very well connected, as a consequence so is she. She is also very happy to take on a supporting role as we have seen in her duties as CPrincess, unlike QNour. And last but not least, she has done so much for Jordan: she has taken on the burden of improving the education system providing schools at times when there weren't enough (namely after the great Palestinian migrations to Jordan), schools for the disabled, the first truly bilingual school in Jordan, improving the education system as a whole with the help of her husband. She also was a great friend of his late majesty's and he respected her opinion as the extremely intelligent woman that she is.
I do not begrudge the King that he is now King and not Prince Hassan, as the late majesty's eldest son it only seems natural that he should have succeeded, however I do begrudge the family the way in which Prince Hassan has been treated, and I think that Jordan would be a far better place if this division could be overcome so that KA and his uncle could work together, it would also be a much better situation for his son PRashid, who has inherited his parents intelligence"

[Humera]

some old pics from the Dutch state visit to Jordan in 1994

[Humera]

from the Dutch visit in 1984

[Humera]

1. Princess Sarvath during Infanta Cristina's wedding, this pic, I believe is from the pre-wedding gala

[Humera]

Infanta Elena's wedding in 1995

[Humera]

from Infanta Elena's pre-wedding festivities