King Talal

[shelley]

Originally Posted by sommone

I'm just floored by the thought of KT and QZ being poor, and the fact that their babies died unnecessarily because of all of the BS...So PN is Princess Noor's grandfather or great-grandfather?

Grandfather.

[Safaa Batin]

Originally Posted by shelley

I've done quite a bit of research on King Talal and think he is one of the saddest and most underrated membersof the JRF. By all accounts ( mainly the British records but I have also spoken to Jordanians who knew or knew of him ) he was an intelligent, kindly man. He was responsible for two of the most important decisions in Jordan's poltical life. He was the moving force that gave Jordan a written constution ( an in imperfect document to be sure but better than none ) and behind compulsory education for boys and girls. He played a good game of chess, and rode very well. He enjoyed reading, music and poetry, and although much of his aggression when ill was targeted towards his wife, when well they enjoyed a good, normal relationship. King Abdullah did not like him as he thought he was too progressive ( ie the consititution and girls' education, I guess). He chose to marry Queen Zein rather than the woman his father had chosen of him, and did not care that she didn't wear Hijab or traditional dress. King Talal wanted to go to university in England and his father did not approve thinking he would get even more fancy ideas. So although with the British High Commissioner's help and advice he went to England and studied to the necessary standards and got into Cambridge, his father ordered him away after a semester and insisted he go to Sandhurst. (David Niven the actor was a friend of his and writes well about him in his autobiography). Prince Naif is decribed in the British records as lightweight, a superficial, badly educated man . King Abdullah prefered him as he gave in to his father and did not present any challenges. King Abdullah thought Prince Talal and Princess Zein's influence to be so bad that he took their infant son Hussein from them and brought him up his own. Talal and Zein lost two children. The first because there was no money for them to buy medicine for their infant daughter, nor heat the house, and she died at six months. The second because King Abdullah did not approve of women giving birth in hospital and the baby had some complications that a home delivery could not deal with and died. It is no wonder that King Talal ended his days in a sanatorium. Obviously he was a despressive but this sort of treatment at the hands of his father could not have helped. The British records make sad but interesting reading. :(

King Talal was a great king, and yes he had a sad fate, but I have some comments on your post Shelley, may be things that you don't know:

I wonder of what is written about him in the british records, because the british were not having good relations with him, and he was not there preference, and hat I know that they were against him, may be due to his progressive attitudes, and constitution which is (very) advanced one, etc. but may be I should not wonder of the british behavior to have a good record about him , as they may like his ideas but did not want him to apply it .. I will give an example in my next post.

The other thing what you said about king Abdullah I did not like him because of girl education, as there was girl education in the time of KA, and at the time of my grandmother who was a child when KA I was th king in the 20's girls were going to schools, and the old girl's school in Irbid is called "Musbah" which is the name of KA-I wife.

Third, assuming that his illness is due to his father treatment, is not likely because his father died , and he did great thing after that and became free of his father, the only pressure on him then became only from Britain this could be the reason.

[Safaa Batin]

Originally Posted by shelley

I have never had much of an opinion of King Abdullah after I read all this. ( King Hussein touches on the financial straits his parents were in in his book 'Uneasy lies the head' when he says how they had to sell his little bicycle once because they were short of cash. ) He does sound a harsh man. And very old fashioned. I have always wondered if his influence on King Hussein was less than desirable. Inevitably being brought up by such a retrogressive person must have influenced him somewhat, as I believe he admired his grandfather very much. When I lived in Jordan someone told me that King Hussein was in many ways like his grandfather and Prince Hassan was more like the father, in temprament and interests. Certainly Prince Hassan's interest in civil society and education and culture sounds more like the father than the grandfather. Whilst on the subject, someone made a point related to the recent twist to the succession saga in Jordan, which is worth sharing. They said that they think that King Hussein certainly wanted the line to return to his own direct family but also that he was not happy at the prospect that his brother would take the country in a liberal direction that he was not comfortable with. If you look back at the old King's speeches, there is indeed very little about democatic practices and civil society, whereas Prince Hassan barely opened his mouth, both as crown prince and now, except to talk about such matters. This person also suggested that King Hussein was nervous that a reign of a King Hassan could upstage his reign as he knew better than any one else how much of the development and insfratructure of modern Jordan economically, politically and socially owed to his brother, although it was always done in his name and under his intructions. A slant I had not really considered seriously but now think has some validity. And maybe behing the remarks about two courts and two spheres of influence that we hear about regarding the position of a crown prince. After all, King Hussein elevated Intelligence Chiefs and Army Commanders to Prime Minister, and did not encourage political life all that much. And why did he do nothing about the so called honour crimes ? Surely he had the stature to impose his will on the tribes and traditional elements ? Or did he really not care about these things so much. I am now wondering.

no wonder my preferences too are K Talal and p hassan and I think you too shelley, as they say, great mind think alike :p .

but about king hussein being traditional like his grandfather and p hassan being libral like his father, I have somthing to say:

the first prime minister when king Hussain became a king 'Fawzi Almullqi' was liberal and democratical man, and was vey much supported by king hussain, the opposition which was leaded by a former prime minister ( was a prime minister at the time of KA-I ) 'Tawfiq abu alhuda' was conservative. The british supporteded the opposition (the conservatives), and they (british)said it literally that 'almulqi' is better but we prefer 'abu alhuda' , (and this the example i talked about in my brevious post) , the oppositions worked hard to form majority and suceeded in forming a new goverment supported by the conservatives, another arab country and the british,(to people who don't know , Jordan was colonized by britain).
at that time prince hassan was just 6 years old, but actually i am shocked that p hassan is liberal, that makes me shelley ask you if you know about P Hassan opinion in 'Alkabariti ' goverement, who was liberal.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Safaa Batin

no wonder my preferences too are K Talal and p hassan and I think you too shelley, as they say, great mind think alike :p .

but about king hussein being traditional like his grandfather and p hassan being libral like his father, I have somthing to say:

the first prime minister when king Hussain became a king 'Fawzi Almullqi' was liberal and democratical man, and was vey much supported by king hussain, the opposition which was leaded by a former prime minister ( was a prime minister at the time of KA-I ) 'Tawfiq abu alhuda' was conservative. The british supporteded the opposition (the conservatives), and they (british)said it literally that 'almulqi' is better but we prefer 'abu alhuda' , (and this the example i talked about in my brevious post) , the oppositions worked hard to form majority and suceeded in forming a new goverment supported by the conservatives, another arab country and the british,(to people who don't know , Jordan was colonized by britain).
at that time prince hassan was just 6 years old, but actually i am shocked that p hassan is liberal, that makes me shelley ask you if you know about P Hassan opinion in 'Alkabariti ' goverement, who was liberal.

This is very good toknow Safaa as I only can rely on the records etc that I can read in English. I did not know so much about the former Prime Ministers, especiallyfrom a Jordanian point of view,so I find it very interesting.

The reason I think Prince Hassan is liberal is because he is always talking about civil society, and the need for debate, and I have heard speeches and statements where he talks about involving people from the grass roots up. I know he and Kabariti clashed but I thought the main clash came over the rise in the bread prices, when I have been told by people who were in the cabinet at the time, that Prince Hassan did not favour going along entirely with the IMF demands to increase the price of bread. Prince Hassan wanted to hold meetings with the Parliamentary sub committee I suppose on finance, I am not sure, to see what could be done to lessen the blow to the ordinary Jordanian, when the Prime Minister just took the decision, without consulting with the committee which as we all know was unpopular and resulted in trouble in Karak, and elsewhere. I think he felt that although Mr. Kabariti talked a lot about liberal government he didn't really practice it very much. But as a Jordanian who actually lives there you will also have your own sources, and I am sure you are correct. I also believe that Prince Hassan had a very good relationship with the late Wasfi Tell who was probably one of the best Prime Ministers Jordan ever had, which says something about him. I think that much of the problem in the relationshion between Prince Hassan and Kabariti was because increasingly the King was giving Prince Hassan more and more responsibility, and dealing with the government through him, and naturally two is company, three is a crowd. (Which actually now makes more sense of what has been said in recent days about the role of the crown prince. ) I was also in Jordan when Prince Hassan called for the first conference which dealt solely with the subject of women, their employment and participation in the labour force, and which finally led to women being given the vote in I think it was 1973.

I know Prince Hassan was very young when his father left the country, and could not have been directly influenced. but I am talking about personal attitudes and inclinations. He is obviously more of an intellectual and thinker as it seems his father was. I think that the late King, although he did a lot for Jordan, could have done more in the areas such as 'honour' killings . He had a lot of prestige and could have used it to impose his will, as he did in other areas, such as peace with Israel. Prince Hassan founded the Family Protection Unit which took care of abused women ( and which has now been taken over by Queen Rania) and brought in foreign specialists to advise the police on how to deal with people who had been abused. He also mentioned the need to limit the size of families in some speeches I heard when I was in Jordan about 20 years ago now. All of this is quite liberal for an Arab politician or leader. And I believe that even today Prince Hassan does come up with some quite open ideas in the talk shows and debates he appears on in various Arab channels, and in the various meetings and conferences he holds, and in what he writes in newspapers. Unfortunately, I cannot follow these as my Arabic knowledge is very modest.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Safaa Batin

King Talal was a great king, and yes he had a sad fate, but I have some comments on your post Shelley, may be things that you don't know:

I wonder of what is written about him in the british records, because the british were not having good relations with him, and he was not there preference, and hat I know that they were against him, may be due to his progressive attitudes, and constitution which is (very) advanced one, etc. but may be I should not wonder of the british behavior to have a good record about him , as they may like his ideas but did not want him to apply it .. I will give an example in my next post.

The other thing what you said about king Abdullah I did not like him because of girl education, as there was girl education in the time of KA, and at the time of my grandmother who was a child when KA I was th king in the 20's girls were going to schools, and the old girl's school in Irbid is called "Musbah" which is the name of KA-I wife.

Third, assuming that his illness is due to his father treatment, is not likely because his father died , and he did great thing after that and became free of his father, the only pressure on him then became only from Britain this could be the reason.

What I meant about education in that yes, there were of course girls's schools in Jordan before King Talal's reign, but it was he who pushed through legislation that there a basic education was compulsory for both boys and girls.

[abir]

From http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/


King Abdullah with his two sons in the 1930s. To his right, Crown Prince Talal; to his left, Prince Nayef.

King Abdullah, accompanied by Crown Prince Talal, congratulates soldiers on the occasion of Army Day.

King Talal at the opening ceremony of Parliament. To his right is the young King (then Prince) Hussein.

King Talal delivers a salute with his son, Prince Hussein.

King Talal with Lebanese dignitaries during a visit to Lebanon.

His Majesty King Talal bin Abdullah, circa 1951.

[sommone]

Thanks for posting these pictures of KT. I have never seen many of them.