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  #121  
Old 01-02-2013, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Imanmajed View Post
A muslim man (also a king) can marry a woman who is a Jew, a Christian or a Muslim. A conversion to Islam is not necessary. The kids of the couple are Muslims from birth. For the rule of succession or throne by the coupleīs children the mother religion or her origin plays no role. Unless within the family "matter of fightings" starts for the succession. But thatīs a problem in the family and not a social and legal point of view.
Thank you very much - this ties in with every information I have about Islam and Muslim.

One of the reasons may be, that women are not counted as important enough to bother over their religion;

On another note: nearly all Ottoman Sultans from Turkey where born by slaves, a lot of them also Christians etc..

Succession in most Muslim societies has nothing to do with beeing 'firstborn' (like in most European cultures) but with proving to be able to do the job.
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  #122  
Old 01-02-2013, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Nice Nofret View Post

One of the reasons may be, that women are not counted as important enough to bother over their religion;
No there are restrictions regarding getting married to a non-Muslim woman, she has to be either Jewish or Christian and no other faiths. But generally in Islam it is highly encouraged to marry a Muslim woman and its considered to be better than interfaith marriages.
So Islam does "bother" over women's religion.
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  #123  
Old 01-02-2013, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Nice Nofret View Post
One of the reasons may be, that women are not counted as important enough to bother over their religion;
Thats wrong! I think, we are moving in a direction away of the main theme. But short position and rectification: It is impossible to make one half of the population ignored. The women are important for a muslim society too and count as same as the men will be count. Men and women are equal. The reasons why Muslim men can marry women from other monotheistic religions are:

Firstly, the exception of Christian and Jewish girls is because the difference in belief between the people of the book and Muslims is relatively lesser and lighter as compared with other non-Muslims. They are all monotheistic religions and known as the Abrahamic faiths. The basic difference between Islam and the other two religions is the belief in the last Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace). But all are believers in God. The latter is what matters!

Second, the Muslim men have the obligation to ensure that their non muslim wifeīs can have free exercise of their own religion. The men havenīt the right to forced their women into Islam. In return, the children of these couples are automatically Muslims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nice Nofret View Post
Succession in most Muslim societies has nothing to do with beeing 'firstborn' (like in most European cultures) but with proving to be able to do the job.
Thats absolutely correct!
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  #124  
Old 01-02-2013, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imanmajed View Post
A muslim man (also a king) can marry a woman who is a Jew, a Christian or a Muslim. A conversion to Islam is not necessary. The kids of the couple are Muslims from birth. For the rule of succession or throne by the coupleīs children the mother religion or her origin plays no role. Unless within the family "matter of fightings" starts for the succession. But thatīs a problem in the family and not a social and legal point of view.
Oh sure a Muslim man can marry a women from different religion ,,, And Absoulotly no matter if she convert to Islam or not ,,,,, BUT the thing we are talking about is the role of J Constitution in that topic & the successor !!
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  #125  
Old 01-02-2013, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by LipGloss View Post
No there are restrictions regarding getting married to a non-Muslim woman, she has to be either Jewish or Christian and no other faiths.
Or Zoroastrian.
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  #126  
Old 01-02-2013, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Biri View Post
Or Zoroastrian.
As far as i know muslim men are allowed to marry only jewesh & christians !! not zoroastrains.
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  #127  
Old 01-02-2013, 12:29 PM
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The Jordanian constitution

effective from 1965 (when it was amended to allow the king to take a brother as heir) till KHussein's death (and afterwards).
KHussein considered several times after 1965 to amend the constitution again (in favor of - at first - PAli or - later - PHamzah). But at the end of the day he never did.

CHAPTER FOUR
The Executive Power
Part I
The King and His Prerogatives
Article 28
The Throne of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan is hereditary to the dynasty of King Abdullah Ibn Al-Hussein in a direct line through his male heirs as provided hereinafter:
(a) * The Royal title shall pass from the holder of the Throne to his eldest son, and to the eldest son of that son and in linear succession by a similar process thereafter. Should the eldest son die before the Throne devolves upon him, his eldest son shall inherit the Throne, despite the existence of brothers to the deceased son. The King may, however, select one of his brothers as heir apparent. In this event, title to the Throne shall pass to him from the holder of the Throne.
* As amended in the Official Gazette No. 1831 of 1/4/1965
(b) Should the person entitled to the Throne die without a male heir, the Throne shall pass to his eldest brother. In the event that the holder of the Throne has no brothers, the Throne shall pass to the eldest son of his eldest brother. Should his eldest brother have no son, the Throne shall pass to the eldest son of his other brothers according to their seniority in age.
(c) In the absence of any brothers or nephews, the Throne shall pass to the uncles and their descendants, according to the order prescribed in paragraph (b) above.
(d) Should the last King die without any heir in the manner prescribed above, the Throne shall devolve upon the person whom the National Assembly shall select from amongst the descendants of the founder of the Arab Revolt, the late King Hussein Ibn Ali.
(e) No person shall ascend the Throne unless he is a Moslem, mentally sound and born by a legitimate wife and of Moslem parents.
(f) No person shall ascend the Throne who has been excluded from succession by a Royal Decree on the ground of unsuitability. Such exclusion shall not of itself include the descendants of such person. The Royal Decree of exclusion shall be countersigned by the Prime Minister and by four Ministers, at least two of whom shall be the Minister of Interior and the Minister of Justice.
(g) The King attains his majority upon the completion of his eighteenth year according to the lunar calendar. If the Throne devolves upon a person who is below this age, the powers of the King shall be exercised by a Regent or Council of Regency, who shall have been appointed by a Royal Decree by the reigning King. If the King dies without making such nomination, the Council of Ministers shall appoint the Regent or Council of Regency.
(h) Should the King become unable to exercise his powers on account of illness, his powers shall be exercised by a Viceregent or Council of Viceregents. The Viceregent or Council of Viceregents shall be appointed by Royal Decree. Should the King be unable to make such appointment, such shall be made by the Council of Ministers.

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  #128  
Old 01-02-2013, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossina View Post
As far as i know muslim men are allowed to marry only jewesh & christians !! not zoroastrains.
In Iran they are considered "People of the Book":

People of the Book - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #129  
Old 01-02-2013, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheikah deena View Post
Dear Veram98 with all respect for you because you are an historian ,, But Iím gonna comment on your comment ,, First sorry because you must know better than me in such things because Iím not historian But I will say what I know .

Thatís true about what one of the members here mentioned about Prince Ali ,,, the most one eligible to the throne from King Hussein sons is Prince Ali !!! ,,,, As I know the constitution has mentioned that the priority to the successor is who born to an Arab Parents ,,, But I said the " Priority " ,,, Not should be !! ,,,, But I have to mention too That priority to the successor is to the eldest son of the king too !!!

So King Abdullah he was eligible to The Throne too clearly
None of KHussein's sons is "full Arab" (his only "real" Arab child is PAlia). The Toukan family, the family of PAli's mother, is Palestinian of Circassian descent. BTW PAli is fluent in Circassian language.
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  #130  
Old 01-02-2013, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheikah deena View Post
BUT the thing we are talking about is the role of J Constitution in that topic & the successor !!
Thanks, but I know that..... if most of power rests with the king, a constitution will be only a paper in the wind with some letters on it. The successor is determined by the ruling family and the religion of the wife of the current ruler actually not plays a decisive role. Thats all what I want to say: In the first place it has nothing to do with religion or full arab descent.
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  #131  
Old 01-02-2013, 02:37 PM
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i think that zoroastrian they believe many gods Ahura Mazda one of them, i agree with Rossina about jewesh and christians
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  #132  
Old 01-02-2013, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veram98 View Post
The Jordanian constitution

effective from 1965 (when it was amended to allow the king to take a brother as heir) till KHussein's death (and afterwards).
KHussein considered several times after 1965 to amend the constitution again (in favor of - at first - PAli or - later - PHamzah). But at the end of the day he never did.

CHAPTER FOUR
The Executive Power
Part I
The King and His Prerogatives
Article 28
The Throne of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan is hereditary to the dynasty of King Abdullah Ibn Al-Hussein in a direct line through his male heirs as provided hereinafter:
(a) * The Royal title shall pass from the holder of the Throne to his eldest son, and to the eldest son of that son and in linear succession by a similar process thereafter. Should the eldest son die before the Throne devolves upon him, his eldest son shall inherit the Throne, despite the existence of brothers to the deceased son. The King may, however, select one of his brothers as heir apparent. In this event, title to the Throne shall pass to him from the holder of the Throne.
* As amended in the Official Gazette No. 1831 of 1/4/1965
(b) Should the person entitled to the Throne die without a male heir, the Throne shall pass to his eldest brother. In the event that the holder of the Throne has no brothers, the Throne shall pass to the eldest son of his eldest brother. Should his eldest brother have no son, the Throne shall pass to the eldest son of his other brothers according to their seniority in age.
(c) In the absence of any brothers or nephews, the Throne shall pass to the uncles and their descendants, according to the order prescribed in paragraph (b) above.
(d) Should the last King die without any heir in the manner prescribed above, the Throne shall devolve upon the person whom the National Assembly shall select from amongst the descendants of the founder of the Arab Revolt, the late King Hussein Ibn Ali.
(e) No person shall ascend the Throne unless he is a Moslem, mentally sound and born by a legitimate wife and of Moslem parents.
(f) No person shall ascend the Throne who has been excluded from succession by a Royal Decree on the ground of unsuitability. Such exclusion shall not of itself include the descendants of such person. The Royal Decree of exclusion shall be countersigned by the Prime Minister and by four Ministers, at least two of whom shall be the Minister of Interior and the Minister of Justice.
(g) The King attains his majority upon the completion of his eighteenth year according to the lunar calendar. If the Throne devolves upon a person who is below this age, the powers of the King shall be exercised by a Regent or Council of Regency, who shall have been appointed by a Royal Decree by the reigning King. If the King dies without making such nomination, the Council of Ministers shall appoint the Regent or Council of Regency.
(h) Should the King become unable to exercise his powers on account of illness, his powers shall be exercised by a Viceregent or Council of Viceregents. The Viceregent or Council of Viceregents shall be appointed by Royal Decree. Should the King be unable to make such appointment, such shall be made by the Council of Ministers.

Thanks for enlightening us.
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  #133  
Old 01-02-2013, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Biri View Post
In Iran they are considered "People of the Book":

People of the Book - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Well that's in Iran, according to Quran and Sunnah they're not considered to be people of the book and Muslims get their teachings mainly from Quran and Sunnah, and they're considered to be more reliable than opinions and theories of scholars.
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  #134  
Old 01-02-2013, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sheikah deena View Post
Thatís why All Jordanians say K Abdullah not eligible to Throne ,, and they say Prince Hamzah eligible more because his mother is muslim ,,, But anyway King Abdullah heís eligible !! no matter what the people say ,, because heís eldest son of the king .

about Queen Noor I Know there is some side of her family are Jews , But not know more Details ,, But as I know Previous religion for Queen Noor is Christian & Iím sure her father is christian !!! ,,,, and thatís true I watched the Video of Rabin's funeral , yes She did Cried ..
I kind of doubt your statement that ALL Jordanians believe Abdullah was not eligible to the throne. Surely if ALL Jordanians believed he was not eligible the government and the people would have rebelled and placed another prince on the throne.

And pray tell what has crying at a funeral got to do with anyone being Jewish and what exactly was wrong with the Queen of Jordan crying at the funeral of a man who was murdered because he tried to make peace with his Arab neighbours? Are you suggesting that by crying at funerals one must only be a member of the religion of the deceased person? If that were the case many of us would change religions on a pretty regular basis. Seems a very foolish idea.
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  #135  
Old 01-02-2013, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by sana View Post
i think that zoroastrian they believe many gods Ahura Mazda one of them, i agree with Rossina about jewesh and christians
No, Ahura Mazda is the only God.

At the time of writing of Quran Arabs didn't know that Zoroastrianism exists; they got to know it after conquering Persia.

If there werte still a monarchy in Iran and the Shah would want to marry a Zoroastrian, this marriage wouldn't be considered "inconvenient"
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  #136  
Old 01-02-2013, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I kind of doubt your statement that ALL Jordanians believe Abdullah was not eligible to the throne. Surely if ALL Jordanians believed he was not eligible the government and the people would have rebelled and placed another prince on the throne.

And pray tell what has crying at a funeral got to do with anyone being Jewish and what exactly was wrong with the Queen of Jordan crying at the funeral of a man who was murdered because he tried to make peace with his Arab neighbours? Are you suggesting that by crying at funerals one must only be a member of the religion of the deceased person? If that were the case many of us would change religions on a pretty regular basis. Seems a very foolish idea.
No no ,,, you understood me wrongly !!! ,,,,, Believe me Iím not against any religion ,,, And Especially Christian & Jews ,, I really do love them & if Iím not repect & believe in them that meant Iím insulting my religion !!! ,,, Because My religion & my holy book has mentioned Christian & jews

There is some Verse in Quran say " The Devoted & the righteous in Islam are those who believe in God & the Last day & Angels , And Books , And Prophets " !!!!!

But Iím not against Jews ,, But yes There is a huge & big issues between " Israel & East " !!!
Iím not against that Queen Noor cried in funeral of jews !!! ,,, but sure was some reason for that tears ,, But we are discussed about previous religion of King Hussein Wive ,,, Thatís all

And about King Abdullah ,,, I said All jordanians knows King Abdullah he was not eligible to the throne ,,, But I said too !! ,, No matter what people say ,,, King Abdullah he was eligible to Throne too Because The Jordanian Constitution has mentioned too the priority to the successor is to the eldest son of the king !!!!
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  #137  
Old 01-02-2013, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biri View Post
Or Zoroastrian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossina View Post
As far as i know muslim men are allowed to marry only jewesh & christians !! not zoroastrains.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biri View Post
No, Ahura Mazda is the only God.

At the time of writing of Quran Arabs didn't know that Zoroastrianism exists; they got to know it after conquering Persia.

If there werte still a monarchy in Iran and the Shah would want to marry a Zoroastrian, this marriage wouldn't be considered "inconvenient"
Zoroastrian religion is created about 2000 year BC in what is now Afghanistan and has previous versions in the earlier centuries ( for example the religion of Mithras). Muslim men can marry only such women who believe in the Holy books (Torah, Bible and Quran) and in the prophets, beginning with Adam to Mohammed. What I know is that the Z. havenīt a prophet and the founder isnīt one of our prophets in which we (Jews, Christians, Muslims) believe. Also the Z. are dualistic religion (not described as a monotheistic religion in science) marked of the conflict of Ahura Mazda (incarnation of good) and Ahriman (the embodiment of evil). In addition there are no angels in their faith. Hence a marriage is impossible.
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  #138  
Old 01-02-2013, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by sheikah deena View Post
Iím not against that Queen Noor cried in funeral of jews !!! ,,, but sure was some reason for that tears ,, But we are discussed about previous religion of King Hussein Wive ,,, Thatís all
I would have thought the reasons for the tears would have been obvious. Rabin was assassinated because of his willingness to work with Jordan and Egypt for a lasting peace agreement. A peace deal the Hussein had worked closely with Rabin on and which might have gone down the drain with Rabins death. Rabin was a man who was willing to risk it all to get peace and paid the ultimate price for it. Many people, including non Jews, shed tears when he was senselessly murdered. One would have to be pretty hard hearted not to have been affected by it.
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  #139  
Old 01-02-2013, 07:02 PM
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I am beyond speechless...this thread is so off topic its not even funny.

Closed for moderator clean up.
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