Jordanian Royal Family and Money

[QueenB]

I meant to say did not know Elie Saab outside of the ME and parts of Europe until Halle wore him to the Oscars.

"show, that not many people outside the ME knew Elie Saab until HALLE BERRY wore him to the Oscars. Suddenly all the top magazines and celebrities were sitting at his shows - shows that no matter how beautiful his clothes are, which they are - you couldn't get those people to his shows. Before Halle wore Elie, I'd heard he dressed QR and it had been mentioned on shows like Full Frontal Fashion that he dressed her, but no one seemed to be excited about him until Halle."

[shelley]

It was an open secret in Jordan that the late king regularly received generous financial help from several friendly governments. This money was intended to both support his personal life style and to enable him to fulfill his 'patriarchal' duties. Huge sums of aid money came into Jordan during the seventies and eighties, mainly from Germany, Japan and Taiwan. P. Hassan, who was largely responsible for the dispensation of these funds, became a byword for fianancial integrity amongst these donor countries because of the scrupulous way in which he monitored the utilisation of the funds. Although undoubtedly there were those amongst the great and the good who took commissions and kickbacks on companies and industries coming into the country, this was certainly not an accepted nor condoned practice. P. Hassan and his advisors having decided the direction of a certain economical policy, and having set the criteria, made a point of distancing themselves from the actual decision making processes by which contracts etc were awarded. In the early days, a few naive CEO's who tried to approach the prince with offers of commissons learnt that in his case this was certainly not the way to win friends and influence people, rather to the contrary. This patriarchal role, although understandable in a country without a functioning welfare state, was one of the main reasons why P. Hassan was so desperate to push for the creation of civil society and its attendent insitutions in Jordan, as he felt it was the only way forward out of what he regarded as a medieval system of patronage, with all the ills that this sort of society fosters. Unfortunately he was not well supported by many of the few who enjoy the perks and privileges that such a system inevitably lends itself to.

I believe that things have changed somewhat in Jordan today. Although I believe there is still a certain degree of outright fianancial support for the king from outside the country, there are also several members of the royal family who do follow similar practices to those outlined by Ipi Tombi, as well as royal in laws and royal best friends.

[La la]

Originally Posted by QueenB

Ok, first of all, not most QR's outfits are free.. many designers have stated publicly that they do not give away outfits as they used to before - and we're talking about the biggest stars seen ALL around the world.
Secondly, it was mentioned about two weeks ago - I can't remember if it was on videofashion or some other show, that not many people outside the ME knew Elie Saab until HALLE BERRY wore him to the Oscars. Suddenly all the top magazines and celebrities were sitting at his shows - shows that no matter how beautiful his clothes are, which they are - you couldn't get those people to his shows. Before Halle wore Elie, I'd heard he dressed QR and it had been mentioned on shows like Full Frontal Fashion that he dressed her, but no one seemed to be excited about him until Halle.
About her bills - yeah like QR and KA would ever make their bills public. In a Nation where $100 can launch a business - spending thousands on a pair of shoes wouldn't be good PR.
Also, QR and KA putting themselves out there and courting the publicity is one thing, but they court it by touting themselves as modern, down to earth leaders, in touch with the real problems of Jordan and the region. Which is completely contradictory to their constant spending.. Also flaunting what they buy to people in very need of assistance is in bad taste.
I do agree with what Humble, Ipi and Angie have said. I share the same opinions. And I want to add that, yes this discussion is about QR/KA - but in reference to QN/KH - when you go around claiming to be in touch with the needs of the poor - and make it a point that press coverage constantly include how 'aware' and how 'concerned' you are about the average person on the street - but your behavior - i.e. frivolous spending - proves otherwise - then you do open yourself up to criticism... as a matter of fact, what journalists of the world should do is instead of wondering what Gucci collection QR's skirt came from - they should start investigating where the money for that very skirt came from.. the story would be a lot more interesting.. but of course, Jordanians would never hear about it as the government controls the press.... but for the rest of us sick of listening to KA and QR come to our country and beg for aid - it would make for some insightful reading.. who knows, maybe that expose would prove what UFO and Balqis have been saying - and people will no longer believe the 'high school' like rumors being spread about the JRF.... and we can all go on thinking that the aid money is actually going to where it was intended... :)

I totally agree with you girls! There are many Middle Eastern Royalties, I'm referring to the womenfolks in particular, that are breaking taboos and encouraging the others to do so and that without loosing touch with their society/roots and far more accomplished 'on native soil' and being aware of the day to day hardships and struggle faced by their people and and difficulties of their fellow women and working much harder on improving their conditions without covering the first page of globally acknowledged magazines. That's not how I'd measure success.

Indeed, the Big Lie theory is interesting per se. But as serious an accusation it may be, I wouldn't dismiss a speculation raised due to/based on the dire status quo of Jordan and provided that they are heavily dependent on foreign aid and the very much 'hyped' contradictory image of the 'powerful' Royal couple/family as unfounded and baseless. To say that they are not that sort of people or incapable of doing that without knowing them personally is too paltry an excuse. I, too, would like to know where the aid money goes and how it is disposed and I don't think that's too much to ask for. Unfortunately, even if it was true, no proof or facts and figures should be expected in a country where the media is so tightly controlled and further tightened up by the Western educated and half British absolute monarch who's considered more pro-Western and liberal than his Crescent counterparts.

No offence meant to those that love Abdullah, but I wish to see Abdullah focusing his 'absolute' power on averting honour killings and similar issues, that they so often voice objections to - and Abdullahs lone infinite saying in implementing new laws has already been discussed in various threads - instead of regulating freedom of speech for the benefit of him and/or his family. Just imposing such a law to throw a person in jail for 3 years from what was 'mere' fine for criticizing him and Rania, at a time many Middle Eastern leaders are working on giving their journalists greater freedom (I'm referring to the Qatari Emir in particular), just sends the wrong message! Where is the priority? However, I don't know where this discussion may lead us and I'm afraid there's not much we can do about it anyways.

[La la]

Originally Posted by shelley

It was an open secret in Jordan that the late king regularly received generous financial help from several friendly governments. This money was intended to both support his personal life style and to enable him to fulfill his 'patriarchal' duties. Huge sums of aid money came into Jordan during the seventies and eighties, mainly from Germany, Japan and Taiwan. P. Hassan, who was largely responsible for the dispensation of these funds, became a byword for fianancial integrity amongst these donor countries because of the scrupulous way in which he monitored the utilisation of the funds. Although undoubtedly there were those amongst the great and the good who took commissions and kickbacks on companies and industries coming into the country, this was certainly not an accepted nor condoned practice. P. Hassan and his advisors having decided the direction of a certain economical policy, and having set the criteria, made a point of distancing themselves from the actual decision making processes by which contracts etc were awarded. In the early days, a few naive CEO's who tried to approach the prince with offers of commissons learnt that in his case this was certainly not the way to win friends and influence people, rather to the contrary. This patriarchal role, although understandable in a country without a functioning welfare state, was one of the main reasons why P. Hassan was so desperate to push for the creation of civil society and its attendent insitutions in Jordan, as he felt it was the only way forward out of what he regarded as a medieval system of patronage, with all the ills that this sort of society fosters. Unfortunately he was not well supported by many of the few who enjoy the perks and privileges that such a system inevitably lends itself to.

I believe that things have changed somewhat in Jordan today. Although I believe there is still a certain degree of outright fianancial support for the king from outside the country, there are also several members of the royal family who do follow similar practices to those outlined by Ipi Tombi, as well as royal in laws and royal best friends.

Thanks for clarifying Shelley! You should've told us this earlier. :)

[papillon]

Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe

Also has anyone noticed that no one in the JRF is as well coifed and expensively clothed as Rania. The men in the family look like middle managers at a bank. The other princesses dress very middle market department store. The palaces always look a little shabby and run down.

I find this approach more intelligent, mature, dignified, and appropriate to the circumstances of the country.

[Balqis]

Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe

Sorry, Balqis....really, I am. I couldn't figure out the response from your usual blah blah....

So I will respond now..

Again sorry....

No problem, Ipe Tombe.

Originally Posted by Ipe Tombe

You are right. I do not put much faith in Time magazine. Mainly because I know Jordanians and have travelled in the ME (and have lived there) and people in the region are not nearly as gaga over the QR and KA as people in Milwaukee or Manchester. It is just a reality of life. You believe what you see and what you know. Every Jordanian I know talks about the brutal reality of life in Jordan and the Levant in general. They do not waste their breath defending a Queen that wears Gucci sunglasses to a refugee camp.

I will respond to this about Queen Rania in a new thread that I will create. It is a bit off topic here.

However to stay on topic, you have not addressed Points 2,3 and 4.

[Ipi Tombe]

can't get the hang of the new forum.

see edited comments. i tried to change them to be in red so you can see the.

Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe

Sorry, Balqis....really, I am. I couldn't figure out the response from your usual blah blah....

So I will respond now..

Again sorry....



You are right. I do not put much faith in Time magazine. Mainly because I know Jordanians and have travelled in the ME (and have lived there) and people in the region are not nearly as gaga over the QR and KA as people in Milwaukee or Manchester. It is just a reality of life. You believe what you see and what you know. Every Jordanian I know talks about the brutal reality of life in Jordan and the Levant in general. They do not waste their breath defending a Queen that wears Gucci sunglasses to a refugee camp.

[Balqis]

Originally Posted by Amoula

I tried my best,but I realized that it's impossible to please everyone,people have different point of views and people love to believe rumors as I previously mentioned,I had a very hard time to be honest,I remember I was still in school and people would tell me that I'm still too young to understand what their saying and sometimes really hurt my feelings with some stupid comments. So Balqis,"da3 al makhlouk lel khalek",and trust me let them stick to their views cause deep down inside,you,me and alot of other people know the truth and know that what has been said is nonsense.
Everyone is entitled to their own openion and only those who have sick minds will believe what has been said.
(Excuse me,didn't mean anyone in particular)

With love,
Amoula.

Thank you for the great advice, Amoula. I realize it is futile to change people's perceptions and that rumours will continue to flourish. I just couldn't stand the negative and hurtful comments about KA and QR on this forum. I felt compelled to speak out and make people at least look at what they are actually saying and be a little bit responsible for their words, especially when they were resorting to slander.

[Ipi Tombe]

maybe..just maybe that KA likes to 'spoil' his wife.

Originally Posted by papillon

I find this approach more intelligent, mature, dignified, and appropriate to the circumstances of the country.

[Ipi Tombe]

Shelley:

I do not know if 'sponsorship' of a business is required in Jordan. I just know that in the UAE is it very lucrative. This sponsorship was considered a kind of tax in a 'tax free' state. The saying was '2+2=5 and the extra 20% goes to the Maktoums'. These sponsorship agreements were only necessary for foreign business which made the locals VERY welcoming to foreigners that wanted to open businesses (unless of course it is in a 'free zone').

So in a nutshell, I was just thinking that the JRF could be all means and rights be getting an income from these business that they have a complete and total right to get. In other words....they are not stealing money from the lil school kids but getting cash flow from a completely legal and acceptable source.

Originally Posted by shelley

there are also several members of the royal family who do follow similar practices to those outlined by Ipi Tombi, as well as royal in laws and royal best friends.

[Balqis]

Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe

can't get the hang of the new forum.

see edited comments. i tried to change them to be in red so you can see the.

Yes, I can see it now, thanks for getting back to me, Ipi Tombe.

Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe

As a matter of fact, I did not find her defense of Islam that incredibly great. It was good just not great. I expected more from her. And she did it like 6 months after 9/11. A little too late for a great impact.

She actually spoke out, along with King Abdullah on Larry King Live immediately after 9/11. She went on Oprah where the episode was watched by millions around the world, not just US and dispelled a lot of erroneous stereotypes. Gave an interview to AFP. Psychology Today had an excellent article on xenophobia in 2002. I can find the links. She also visited New York in late September 2001, there she paid a visit to the Red Cross, met then Mayor Guilliani, toured the twin towers site and visited a mosque. This whole NY visit spoke volumes and was well publicized and did a lot for the anti-Arab feelings right after 9/11.

Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe

Enough, with the personal negativity. Before you we agreed and we disagreed, we didn't attack each other personally. It is called manners and decorum.

What are you talking about? I haven't personally attacked anyone here. Never called anyone names. I have only attacked the inadequate responses to the points I made. If you make serious allegations and slander or agree with a poster who has, you should be prepared to adequately at least argue back. And I don't mean "you" specifically here, Ipi Tombe I mean everyone here who has joined the debate here.

Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe

Sorry, I can't figure out your replies to the subject for all the venom you spew to other post-ers.

What venom was I using here, Ipi Tombe?

Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe

What is wrong with asking for accountablity in international donations? At this point in time the Jordanian government has never acknowledged where the money goes-so WHERE does it go??? It is used to build hospitals and streets and schools-GREAT!!! But how does the rest of the world know???

That's fine, I never attacked the asking for accountability. That's very relevant to the topic and would be very helpful to know. My initial responses were for the accusations of stealing by KA and QR. That is a whole different matter to come up with such a conclusion to where all the aid money is going.

Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe

Seriously, being 'sponsors' of business is a very legitimate way of making money. It is. Your ignorance to this point is quite funny.

But are you suggesting that KA and QR themselves are involved in these type of dealings?

Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe

Uh...I don't get the 'big lie' discussion.

It was meant to show the lack of any real evidence presented here to the stealing allegations.

[Balqis]

Originally Posted by shelley

It was an open secret in Jordan that the late king regularly received generous financial help from several friendly governments. This money was intended to both support his personal life style and to enable him to fulfill his 'patriarchal' duties. Huge sums of aid money came into Jordan during the seventies and eighties, mainly from Germany, Japan and Taiwan. P. Hassan, who was largely responsible for the dispensation of these funds, became a byword for fianancial integrity amongst these donor countries because of the scrupulous way in which he monitored the utilisation of the funds. Although undoubtedly there were those amongst the great and the good who took commissions and kickbacks on companies and industries coming into the country, this was certainly not an accepted nor condoned practice. P. Hassan and his advisors having decided the direction of a certain economical policy, and having set the criteria, made a point of distancing themselves from the actual decision making processes by which contracts etc were awarded. In the early days, a few naive CEO's who tried to approach the prince with offers of commissons learnt that in his case this was certainly not the way to win friends and influence people, rather to the contrary. This patriarchal role, although understandable in a country without a functioning welfare state, was one of the main reasons why P. Hassan was so desperate to push for the creation of civil society and its attendent insitutions in Jordan, as he felt it was the only way forward out of what he regarded as a medieval system of patronage, with all the ills that this sort of society fosters. Unfortunately he was not well supported by many of the few who enjoy the perks and privileges that such a system inevitably lends itself to.

I believe that things have changed somewhat in Jordan today. Although I believe there is still a certain degree of outright fianancial support for the king from outside the country, there are also several members of the royal family who do follow similar practices to those outlined by Ipi Tombi, as well as royal in laws and royal best friends.

In regards to the finacial support you have pointed out in the last paragraph that KA receives, Shelley: Does it, to your knowledge, include aid that is meant for the poor? Is downright skimming of it ever done personally by the King and Queen, as they have been accused here?

[Angie]

Does anyone honestly think that the King and Queen care what we say about them?

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Balqis

In regards to the finacial support you have pointed out in the last paragraph that KA receives, Shelley: Does it, to your knowledge, include aid that is meant for the poor? Is downright skimming of it ever done personally by the King and Queen, as they have been accused here?

I can't get round this new system either so sorry if my quote is in the wrong position !

Look - I honestly don't know know if any downright skimming is going on as I am not in a position to know what the sums of aid money are, and how they are ear marked. All I am saying is that the JRF have always managed to 'put a good show on' as they have been given financial assisitance from outside the country for precisely that reason. Having said that, the levels of personal expenditure are now phenomenal in some areas. I would like to think this is enabaled by the methods outlined by Ipi Tombe, which are certainly in place. This whole style of doing business has extenuated the differences between the rich and the poor big time. There is a lot more money floating around Jordan these days, as the atmosphere is by some peoples' standards is more 'congenial' for business, but it is in the hands of a very few people.