The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Non-Reigning Houses > Royal Families of Italy

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #101  
Old 07-17-2016, 11:30 AM
Benjamin's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Francisco, United States
Posts: 1,515
Oh, several board members tend to be ready on hand to criticize the Castros.

Whether the Calabria support is so strong outside of the online realm is quite up for debate.

The Duke of Castro certainly has a strong and visible network in Italy.
__________________

__________________
Sii forte.
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 07-17-2016, 11:55 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin View Post
Oh, several board members tend to be ready on hand to criticize the Castros.

Whether the Calabria support is so strong outside of the online realm is quite up for debate.

The Duke of Castro certainly has a strong and visible network in Italy.
On January 24th 2014 the Duke of Castro signed an act of reconciliation at 5:30 p.m., at the Excelsior Hotel in Naples. Prince Carlo, the Duke of Castro, solemnly placed his signature:

In the presence of the Duchess of Calabria née Princess Anne d'Orléans;
In the presence of the Duchess of Castro née Camilla Crociani;
In the presence of the Duke of Noto;
In the presence of the Duchess of Noto née Doña Sofía Landaluce y Melgarejo;
In the presence of Archduke Simeon of Austria-Lorraine;
In the presence of Archduchess Simeon of Austria-Lorraine née Princess María of Bourbon-Two Sicilies;
In the presence of the Marchioness of Laserna and of Laula née Princess Teresa of Bourbon-Two Sicilies;
In the presence of Nobile Michele Carrelli Palombi dei Marchesi di Raiano;
In the presence of Princess Inès of Bourbon-Two Silicies, Madame Michele Carrelli Palombi dei Marchesi di Raiano;
In the presence of Princess Beatrice of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, formerly Princess Napoléon;
In the presence of Prince Casimiro of Bourbon-Two Sicilies;
In the presence of Princess Maria Cristina of Bourbon-Two Sicilies née Princess of Savoia-Aosta;
And in the presence of the Duke of Bragança.

With his signature Don Carlo promised that at all occasions connected with the dynasty, the family members attending will represent the whole family and the heads of each branch will be considered equal, sharing their historic responsibilities. "The whole family is determined not to reignite the dispute and instead to work together in a spirit of unity for the common good, in a spirit of Christian reconciliation inspired by the aims of the Constantinian Order". He solemnly promised that, in attendance of a whole group of most illustrious witnesses... Is Don Carlo a man of honour? Is his given word as a nobleman, a Prince indeed his given word? The ink of this solemn declaration has not been dry, so to speak, and Don Carlo is already sabotaging it!
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 07-17-2016, 12:30 PM
duke of poliganc's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: cairo, Egypt
Posts: 289
the Calabria branch of the family claim comes after prince carlos renounced his rights of succession to the Crown of Two Sicilies on 14 December 1900 so there is no need to trash the duke of castro for something the other claimants have done if edward viii divorced wallis simpson can just simply reclaim the british throne ?!
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 07-17-2016, 02:12 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,920


That so-called "Act of Cannes" is NO Act of Abdication. The only renunciation was for an eventual (!) succession to the Crown, as the Pragmatic Decree of 1759 only required a renunciation of the Two Sicilies Sovereignty in the event of their union with the person of the Spanish Sovereign or Heir Apparent. The crux is in the words eventuale successione alla Corona delle Due Sicilie (the eventual succession to the Crown of the Two Sicilies) which no longer existed; one cannot renounce an eventual succession in civil law, nor does civil law enable a renunciation of something which does not exist.

There was a legal counsel between between the Regentess of Spain (the mother of Doña Mercedes de Borbón, the bride) and the Count of Caserta (the father of Don Carlo di Borbone delle Due Sicilie, the groom). The Regentess' counsel had determined that the only needed renunciation was that of the nationality: in order to marry her daughter, the Prince should give up his Italian nationality and become Spanish indeed. Also this can not be a point because all princes di Borbone delle Due Sicilie have lost their original nationality (of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies) anyway and became a citizen of a new state.

Don Carlo specifically renounced his rights to properties in the House of the Two Sicilies, he did not specifically renounce the Headship itself. The renunciation of the properties was made because Don Carlo was marrying into a very wealthy royal family and his brothers were impoverished. The so-called Act of Cannes ensured an eventual succession of his issue to the throne of Spain (which never happened) and by this Act he, the eldest son and heir of the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, cared for his family's financial future by renouncing his claim to the House's wealth.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 07-17-2016, 04:38 PM
duke of poliganc's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: cairo, Egypt
Posts: 289
Quote:
...Here present is His Royal Highness Prince Don Carlo our dearest loved Son and he has declared that he shall be entering into marriage with Her Royal Highness the Infanta Doña Maria Mercedes, Princess of the Asturias, and assuming by that marriage the nationality and quality of Spanish Prince, intends to renounce, and by this present act solemnly renounces for Himself and for his Heirs and Successors to any right and rights to the eventual succession to the Crown of the Two Sicilies and to all the Properties of the Royal House found in Italy and elsewhere and this according to our laws, constitutions and customs of the Family and in execution of the Pragmatic Decree of King Charles III, Our August ancestor, of the 6th October 1759, to whose prescriptions he declares freely and explicitly to subscribe to and obey.
i don't see anything in it about eventual succession to the spanish Crown . passing the family wealth and properties from one son to another doesn't require renouncing any rights of succession to the Crown of the Two Sicilies
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 07-18-2016, 05:48 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke of poliganc View Post
i don't see anything in it about eventual succession to the spanish Crown . passing the family wealth and properties from one son to another doesn't require renouncing any rights of succession to the Crown of the Two Sicilies
The "eventual succession" to the Crown of the Two Sicilies would clash when a descendant of Prince Carlo, an eventual successor to this Crown would also succeed to the Crown of Spain. It was not allowed to hold these two Crowns in one hand. This eventuality never happened: there is no succession to the Crown of the Two Sicilies since it was (and is still) non-existent. And there is no succession to the Crown of Spain either since the brother-in-law of Don Carlo, King Alfonso XIII, had issue and his direct descendant Don Felipe is on the throne today.

The second part of the Act of Cannes specifically dealt with the renunciation of claims on the inheritance of the House Bourbon-Two Sicilies. As said: Don Carlo married into a wealthy family and by doing so he ensured that his impoverished brothers would enjoy a inheritance, regardless any "eventual succession".
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 08-27-2016, 05:21 AM
eya eya is offline
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: -, Greece
Posts: 5,422
Italy: Re-Discovering the Italian Kingdom of Two Sicilies
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 10-16-2016, 02:22 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Omaha, United States
Posts: 1,690
Prince Carlo has given an interview to El Mundo. The reconciliation seems to be all but definitely broken. The link and translation was provided by Manuel on the Franco-Iberian Royals Message Board.





The Franco-Iberian Royals Message Board: Interview with the Duke of Castro
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 10-18-2016, 05:48 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
If I don't mistake, the Dukedom of Franco will be eventually indeed inherited by his daughter, since she is the first born child.


However, back to the Two Sicilies, I'm wondering:
- what do the other Princes think about this decision?
- what will happen to the Grand Mastership of the Constantinian Order?
Luis Alfonso will no inherited the dukedom of Franco. His mother, Carmen Martinez-Bordiú, signed an agreement with her younger brother Francisco Franco Martinez-Bordiú. When the present Duchess of Franco dies the dukedom will pass to her son Francisco and Carmen will inherit the tittle of marquis of Villaverde. Francisco is the present holder of the title of marquis, inherited by his father . So the daughter of Luis Alfonso will inherit the title of marchioness of Villaverde.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 10-19-2016, 05:18 AM
MAfan's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: N/A, Italy
Posts: 5,536
Thanks for the clarification, I was not aware of that agreement.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 10-19-2016, 05:34 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by baena View Post
Luis Alfonso will no inherited the dukedom of Franco. His mother, Carmen Martinez-Bordiú, signed an agreement with her younger brother Francisco Franco Martinez-Bordiú. When the present Duchess of Franco dies the dukedom will pass to her son Francisco and Carmen will inherit the tittle of marquis of Villaverde. Francisco is the present holder of the title of marquis, inherited by his father . So the daughter of Luis Alfonso will inherit the title of marchioness of Villaverde.
So, for my understanding:

Doña María del Carmen Franco y Polo, Dowager Marchioness of Villaverde (the only child of General Francisco Franco) is the current Duchess of Franco.

Her eldest son Don Francisco Martínez-Bordiú y Franco is the current Señor de Meirás and Marquès de Villaverde.

Her eldest child Doña Carmen Martínez-Bordiú y Franco, will not inherit her mother's Dukedom of Franco, it will go to her brother Francisco instead. In return she receives her brother's marquessate of Villaverde?

Is that correct? Is this legally allowed to swap titles? "You get title X in return you give me title Y"?
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 10-20-2016, 04:52 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
So, for my understanding:

Doña María del Carmen Franco y Polo, Dowager Marchioness of Villaverde (the only child of General Francisco Franco) is the current Duchess of Franco.

Her eldest son Don Francisco Martínez-Bordiú y Franco is the current Señor de Meirás and Marquès de Villaverde.

Her eldest child Doña Carmen Martínez-Bordiú y Franco, will not inherit her mother's Dukedom of Franco, it will go to her brother Francisco instead. In return she receives her brother's marquessate of Villaverde?

Is that correct? Is this legally allowed to swap titles? "You get title X in return you give me title Y"?
Yes its correct. It is legal and allowed by the spanish legislation to swap titles. Is not the only case, if the family members make an agreement it is legal. In this case Carmen Martinez-Bordiu, the mother of Luis Alfonso, takes the marquessate In compensation of the dukedom. Since the succession law change establishing the inheritance of hereditary noble titles by the firstborn regardless of gender, some families make agreements and swap titles in compensation to the eldest daughter.

The eldest son of the Duchess of Franco surnames are, Franco Martinez-Bordiú. When he was born his parents reverse the surnames. Its legal In spain to put the mothers surname first.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Prince Juan of Spain and Princess Maria de las Mercedes of the Two Sicilies - 1935 Elsa M. Historical Royal Weddings 15 10-29-2016 06:20 PM
Prince Carlos of Bourbon Two Sicilies and Princess Anne of France -1965 Hannelore Weddings: Non-Reigning Houses & Nobility 5 12-27-2009 06:32 PM
Princess Teresa of Bourbon Two Sicilies and Marques Iñigo Moreno -1961 STEVEN Weddings: Non-Reigning Houses & Nobility 1 12-27-2009 06:19 PM
Prince Jan Zamoyski and Princess Isabel Alfonsa of the Two Sicilies - 1929 Marengo Historical Royal Weddings 14 11-11-2009 11:03 AM




Popular Tags
ascot 2016 best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit catherine middleton style coup d'etat crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit current events duchess of cambridge e-mail fashion poll grand duke jean greece kate middleton king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander member introduction monarchy new zealand nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament picture of the week prince bernhard prince charles prince harry princess beatrice hats princess madeleine princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats prince sverre queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania royal fashion september 2016 state visit state visit to denmark succession sweden swedish royal family summer portraits 2016 the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats time travel women deliver conference


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:56 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises