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  #61  
Old 05-28-2016, 03:46 PM
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The Dutch should have opted for a republic indeed. Then the people can elect their own best man with -possibly- a nice blonde lady next to him who can baptize ships too and be glamorous when hosting the President of Germany in the presidential palace at Dam Square. And that moment will come sooner than we think and it is all by the royals themselves. They have completely eroded their very own position.

That the previous Duke of Calabria, an Infante of Spain himself, felt forced to declare the marriage of his own son to Miss Landaluce "dynastic" because his youthfriend, his school- and soulmate Don Juan Carlos felt pressed into a corner by his own son and his own wife to give in and welcome Miss Ortiz: what could he do?

It is all that wriggling like slimey eels in a bucket: "what can we do to marry the one commoner after the other and still pretend that we are royal, that whe are Altezas Reales, that we are given a generous royal lifestyle at the taxpayers' expense?"

It is spineless, principle-less. Period. The sons of Van Vollenhoven -himself still a commoner- are "princes". And so are the children of O'Neill, himself still a commoner. They are given ducal titles, personal arms, are called "Highness". Just the kiddies of Pieter and Chris. God beware me. What a vaudeville.
Perhaps they would even elect a woman and have her nice blond husband cutting the ribbons .

Did it occur to you that these royals themselves wanted the changes? Perhaps they do not want to be forced into a loveless marriage with a cousin and have x mistresses on the side any longer? Or even for other reasons? Queen Wilhelmina herself favoured marriages with Dutch commoners later in life, as a way to strenghten the monarchy. Perhaps they also prefer to be succeeded by their own daughter instead of a cousin, as was the case when King Frederik IX supported the change of succession of 1953.

There is no pretending to be royals. They ARE royals. By marriage sometimes, by female succession sometimes yes. But are laws not valid in your mind? If not, would that mean we have a German junker as king of the Netherlands, the head of the Von Amsberg family? I do not see the difference between that scenario and that of the Van Vollenhoven or O'Neill children.

You talk about 'spinelessness'. However, the spineless thing to do would be not to change along. To allow others to force your marital partner upon you etc. The spineless thing to do is to deny reality and withdraw in a dream of a romanticised past with brave knights, chaste maidens, horses and chivalry. The braver and more fruitful option is to accept reality, to adapt to it and to move on. All old institutions that survived did just that, from the monarchies to churches to states.
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  #62  
Old 05-29-2016, 03:49 AM
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They are spineless because they all -when it suits them- tweak and twist the rules in their advantage. And their supporters follow them, knowing the flaws but nevertheless with each stretch of imagination, the number of followers shrinks, as Prince Carlo learns now.

Had he not contracted a mésalliance himself, he would have slammed Prince Pedro around the ears for making an undynastical marriage. But wisely he kept silent, seeing his own record. And if he had a son, no hair on his (or should I say her?) head to thínk about changing the succession in the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies. It is all that slimey wriggling and the most intersting is that people KNOW that the more conservative royalists DO have valid points but are ignoring these.

Those monarchies are like the Catholic Church: tweaking and changing the rules in a vain hope to win "progressives". In the end the progressives -of course- do not return and -worser- the conservatives have run out of the emergency exit as well: what they believed in has só changed that you can call what you want but they prefer to step away from this -in their eyes- travesty. What happened in the Church, happens in once respected prestigious royal families. All by all the monarchies will fall and -as conservative and royalist I am by nature- I will shed no tear about it. It had nothing to do anymore with what once were proper royal dynasties.
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Old 05-29-2016, 04:47 AM
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I suppose you mean that Prince Carlo's behavior is opportunistic. I am not in disagreement with you on that. And the more we read of marlene's blog articles the more this vision is supported. Although the change in succession is an interesting move I feel it was unneeded as there is a rival claim and there are so many other princes around. The last thing we need is yet another pretender walking around, selling out orders to snobs for financial gain. I very much prefer the claim of the Calabria's in any case.

RE: progressives -> Not only progressivs change, so do conservatives. Of course there are always exceptions: a few people chose to remain static. For example the two Brazilian single princes who actually regressed, make a mockery of their family's liberal heritage while clinging onto a phantasy of altar and throne (as somebody put it on the FIRMB) that never ever existed in Brazil. They ruined the referendum in 1992 with their bizarre views and now seem hell-bent in making the family extinct. I don't find that admirable at all but a psychiatric disorder. But perhaps they are of the same opinion as you and prefer to hide in a dream of times when things were still 'proper' instead of facing up to reality. I believe it is in Federico de Roberto's novel 'I Viceré' that the princes of Francalanza have the motto 'change with times to remain the same'. Perhaps that though may give some comfort.
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  #64  
Old 06-06-2016, 10:26 AM
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According to this article from Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera (which contains various historical mistakes, but at least one hopes that the news reported is correct), the Duke of Castro has declared that he finds the reaction of Prince Pedro "incomprenehsible" and that such reaction calls the 2014 reconciliation in question.
At the same time, he also announced his intention to confer to his eldest daughter Maria Caroline the title of Duchess of Calabria, to which she is entitled being his first born child.

Dinasty Borbone, faida reale tra Italia e Spagna per il Duca di Calabria - Corriere.it
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  #65  
Old 06-06-2016, 04:29 PM
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The article speaks about Don Pedro as "Infante of Spain" which is not true.
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Old 06-06-2016, 06:14 PM
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Yes, that was one of the various mistakes I was referring to in my previous post.
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  #67  
Old 06-17-2016, 12:30 PM
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Hi, I am a Royalist from Italy (but more interested in Savoy and German dynasties that Bourbon Two Siciles)
Who would be the heir of prince Pedro? His first or his second son? And if the Duke of Castro decided to abolish the Salic Law then what they discussed in 2014? Wasn't it a meeting in order to recognise the son of Prince Pedro as future Head of The Royal House?
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  #68  
Old 06-17-2016, 12:58 PM
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Hi, I am a Royalist from Italy (but more interested in Savoy and German dynasties that Bourbon Two Siciles)
Who would be the heir of prince Pedro? His first or his second son? And if the Duke of Castro decided to abolish the Salic Law then what they discussed in 2014? Wasn't it a meeting in order to recognise the son of Prince Pedro as future Head of The Royal House?
The present head is His Royal Highness Don Pedro Juan María Alejo Saturnino y Todos los Santos de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Orléans, Prince of the Two Sicilies, Duke of Calabria, Count of Caserta, Grande of Spain (*1968).

The heir is his eldest son: His Royal Highness Don Jaime y Todos los Santos de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Landaluce, Prince of the Two Sicilies, Duke of Noto, Duke of Capua (*1993).

In 2014 the two branches agreed not to reignite the dispute and instead to work together in a spirit of unity for the common good. It was expected that the shared headship would continue through the lifetimes of the Duke of Calabria and of Castro and it was assumed -as the Duke of Castro has only daughters- that time will do its work concerning the headship.
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  #69  
Old 06-17-2016, 01:39 PM
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Ok I understand, but why did not Prince Pedro ask the duke of Calabria to recognise officially the Duke of Noto as if heir?
It looks like in this negotiation the Duke of Calabria won the table:
his two daughters were named Duchesses
he never commited officially on recognising the Duke of Noto as successor
and now he can say that the Salic Law is abolished and his daughter Maria Carolina is his heir

I understand that Prince Pedro is recognised by the King of Spain as Head of the House of Two Sicilies but the duke of Calabria is "almost" italian "with a nice french accent" his wife is italian and always smart and smailing and his daughters are very pretty and often take part to celebration in Naples attended by thousand of cheering people, they are very popular

While Prince Pedro and his family always look stiff, cold.

What is it more important : that prince Pedro is recognised by you and by a foreign king (the king of Spain) or that a prince is cheered by the people of "his" former kingdom and speaks its language?

Let us imagine that one day the neapolitan people will have the choice between Prince Carlo and Prince Pedro, who do you think they will choose?
Do you think that if we tell the people "the king of Spain recognises the Prince Pedro" would be enough toestablish prince Pedro's rights?

Italy is an independent country and I cannot really understand these foreign princes since many generations who ignore the culture of their ancestor's countries but they want to be considered lawfuly heirs because a foreign head of state recognised them

If a prince wants to be the lawful heir he must go to his ancestor's country and share hisi people's destiny, like prince Leka II in Albania, not live confortably in Spain and rememeber from time to time that he is pretender of a throne 2000 kilometres from his home
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  #70  
Old 06-17-2016, 05:35 PM
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Ok I understand, but why did not Prince Pedro ask the duke of Calabria to recognise officially the Duke of Noto as if heir?
It looks like in this negotiation the Duke of Calabria won the table:
his two daughters were named Duchesses. [...]
You are confusing the former Duke of Calabria (Infante Don Carlos 1938-2015) with the Duke of Castro.
He had a son and four male-lineage grandsons:
- Don Pedro de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Orléans (*1968), the Duke of Calabria
- Don Jaime de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Landaluce (*1993), the Duke of Noto
- Don Juan de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Landaluce (*2003)
- Don Pablo de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Landaluce (*2004)
- Don Pedro de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Landaluce (*2007)

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He never commited officially on recognising the Duke of Noto as successor and now he can say that the Salic Law is abolished and his daughter Maria Carolina is his heir.
The two branches recognized each others existence and titles but the question about the headship has not been discussed. At the moment of the agreement, Salic Law still was in force.

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Originally Posted by rob65 View Post
I understand that Prince Pedro is recognised by the King of Spain as Head of the House of Two Sicilies but the duke of Calabria is "almost" italian "with a nice french accent" his wife is italian and always smart and smailing and his daughters are very pretty and often take part to celebration in Naples attended by thousand of cheering people, they are very popular.
You are confusing the Duke of Calabria with the Duke of Castro. It may be that Camilla Crociani is always smart and smiling and his daughters are pretty. That is not really a requirement. No one can say that the Prince of Wales or the King of the Netherlands are goodlooking and handsome gentlemen. The Duke of Calabria has three beautiful daughters as well.

While the Duke of Castro and his wife Camilla are attending jet-set party after movie première after charity diner after ball, at this moment the Duke of Noto (the son of the Duke of Calabria) is making a tour through former Two Sicilies this very week: picture and picture and picture and picture and picture and picture and picture.
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  #71  
Old 06-18-2016, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
You are confusing the former Duke of Calabria (Infante Don Carlos 1938-2015) with the Duke of Castro.
He had a son and four male-lineage grandsons:
- Don Pedro de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Orléans (*1968), the Duke of Calabria
- Don Jaime de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Landaluce (*1993), the Duke of Noto
- Don Juan de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Landaluce (*2003)
- Don Pablo de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Landaluce (*2004)
- Don Pedro de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Landaluce (*2007)



The two branches recognized each others existence and titles but the question about the headship has not been discussed. At the moment of the agreement, Salic Law still was in force.



You are confusing the Duke of Calabria with the Duke of Castro. It may be that Camilla Crociani is always smart and smiling and his daughters are pretty. That is not really a requirement. No one can say that the Prince of Wales or the King of the Netherlands are goodlooking and handsome gentlemen. The Duke of Calabria has three beautiful daughters as well.

While the Duke of Castro and his wife Camilla are attending jet-set party after movie première after charity diner after ball, at this moment the Duke of Noto (the son of the Duke of Calabria) is making a tour through former Two Sicilies this very week: picture and picture and picture and picture and picture and picture and picture.
I am not confusing Carlo with the late Don Carlos, father of prince Pedro.
My question is why should Pedro be the legitimate heir only because he is recognised as such by the King of Spain = a foreign sovereign
The Italian prince Carlo married to Camilla Crociani seem to me much more italian and popular in Italy

In 2014 I read that Carlo (the one married to Crociani) regognised that he and don Pedro were joint heads of the House of Two Sicilies and after them the son of Prince Pedro, the Duke of Noto would become the head of the familiy

Weddings within the royal families are no longer fashionabe, the solution would be the Duke of Noto marrying one day the princess Maria Carolina daughter of Prince Carlo and Camilla Crociani, she's only 13 now
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  #72  
Old 06-18-2016, 11:33 AM
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In 2014 I read that Carlo (the one married to Crociani) regognised that he and don Pedro were joint heads of the House of Two Sicilies and after them the son of Prince Pedro, the Duke of Noto would become the head of the familiy
No, the Duke of Castro and Prince Pedro - at the time on behalf of his father the Duke of Calabria - just acknowledged the titles "presently used by both parties and their descendants". Nothing was said and settled about the present and future headship of the Royal Family or of the two Constantinian Orders.
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Old 06-18-2016, 12:36 PM
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[...].
My question is why should Pedro be the legitimate heir only because he is recognised as such by the King of Spain = a foreign sovereign
[...]
When Don Carlo Tancredi di Borbone e Borbone, Principe delle Due Sicilie (1870-1949) married Doña María de las Mercedes de Borbón y Austria, Infanta de España, Princesa de Asturias and Heiress to the throne of Spain, he have up his rights because of Neapolitan House Laws which would prevent a merge of the two thrones. But since that marriage only lasted three years (Doña Maria died in 1904) and her younger brother Don Alfonso XIII was already King and would get his own offspring in 1907, the scenario of a Borbone delle Due Sicilie on the throne of Spain was purely theoretical.

Another argument was that the Neapolitan House Laws were not in force since the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies ended its existence in 1861, when it merged in the new Kingdom of Italy. The laws of the Kingdom of Italy (Don Carlo Tancredi was an Italian citizen) stated nothing about Italians giving up royal rights to marry someone. So the claim of the Duke of Calabria is that the so-called Act of Cannes (the resignation to marry an Infanta of Spain) was unneccessary and not grounded in law and therefore null and void. When Doña Maria de las Mercedes died in 1904, after only three years of marriage, the theoretic situation of a Prince of Two Sicilies on the throne also became most unlikely.

The Duke of Calabria considers himself as the firstborn primogeniture heir of the last King of the Two Sicilies as well the firstborn primogeniture heir of the House of Farnese.
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  #74  
Old 06-18-2016, 01:09 PM
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When Doña Maria de las Mercedes died in 1904, after only three years of marriage, the theoretic situation of a Prince of Two Sicilies on the throne also became most unlikely.
Actually her son Algfonso became Prince of Asutrias after her death because King Alfonso XIII. was then still unmarried. And you only have to look at their Wedding Day to see that was not so unlikely that he could have become King.
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  #75  
Old 06-25-2016, 09:58 AM
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I don't understand the purpose of this. Italy no longer recognizes the monarchy, so why do this? Their property became property of the state once the monarchy was ousted, no?
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:27 AM
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I don't understand the purpose of this. Italy no longer recognizes the monarchy, so why do this? Their property became property of the state once the monarchy was ousted, no?
It is not about restoration. It is about the immense patrimonium of the House, about pride on their ancestry and keeping the traditions. The Earl of Carnarvon could have sold his mighty Highclere Castle ("Downton Abbey") to Donald Trump, to see it transferred into a tasteless Trumpish golf resort. The Earl Spencer could sell Althorp House and live a jet-set life in Monte-Carlo. The Duke of Calabria is the head of a family which played an immense role in European history, is connected with so many grand and prestigious families. They simply want to live up to their ancestry, their prestige, their dignity. I applaud them for their efforts and not going the easy way and swindle all for easy money.
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  #77  
Old 07-03-2016, 06:07 PM
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The supporters of the Duke of Calabria not happy with the visit of the Duke of Castro in Nola:

Gigli, Borbone contro Borbone: "Quel re a Nola è un pezzotto"
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Old 07-04-2016, 09:12 AM
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The article actually reports that one supporter of the Duke of Calabria has written a letter to the Major of Nola, ahead of the visit of the Duke of Castro to the city of Nola, pointing out that - for the very well known arguments - the Duke of Castro isn't the Head of the Royal Hoouse of the Two Sicilies, which instead is the Duke of Calabria.
So, it appears to be more the discontent of one person for the fact that Prince Carlo has been presented as the Head of the Royal House, rather than the discontent of the supporters of the Duke of Calabria for the visit of the Duke of Castro itself.
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Old 07-04-2016, 09:53 AM
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The Duke of Castro solemnly signed a family pact in which the titles of both branches as well the positions would be respected. One year later the ink has not dried up and what is the Duke of Castro doing? He "creates" his eldest daughter Duchess of Calabria...

First of all: this is a clear breach of his solemnly pledged commitment as laid down in the family pact.

Secondly: since the end of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, the title of Duke of Calabria (until then a title for the Heir) became the title for the head of the House. Now the Duke of Castro not only usurped a title, he also gave it, to someone who is not the Heir.

The duke is really sabotaging the whole delicate process to bridge the differences in the House of the Two Sicilies...
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Old 07-04-2016, 10:09 AM
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According to an acquaintance of the Spanish claimant:

Quote:
The Duke of Calabria wrote a polite and generous letter to his cousin the Duke of Castro on 28 May seeking to reaffirm the reconciliation, but the letter did not even receive a reply. The agreement had laid down precisely that the mutual recognition of titles was for the holders on each line and their descendants - the Duke of Castro wrote a letter to the Spanish newspaper ABC stating that the recognition was limited to the then holders, which is not what the agreement he signed and which is widely published actually said. He has now conferred the title of Duchess of Calabria on his daughter (having previously offered it to Prince Antoine of the Two Sicilies, who has not supported this 'change of succession' however).
The agreement was "recognising respectively as cousins the treatment and titles presently used by both parties and their descendants".

Historic Dynastic Act of Reconciliation Signed - Sacred Military Constantinian Order of St. George
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