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  #41  
Old 05-26-2016, 11:55 AM
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Royal Musings: In defense of her husband, Don Augusto Ruffo di Calabria
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  #42  
Old 05-26-2016, 01:41 PM
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Anyhow, Don Pedro or his sons could have become undisputed heirs when the Duke of Castro would reconcile since he has no sons, was it not for him suddenly making his daughters successors to the headship of the House...
Actually, until the recent Act of Rome, the line of succession to the Headship of the Royal House after Prince Carlo, Duke of Castro, was as follows:
  1. Prince Antonio of Bourbon-Two Sicilies (b.1929)
  2. Prince Francesco of Bourbon-Two Sicilies (b.1960)
  3. Prince Antonio of Bourbon-Two Sicilies (b.2003)
  4. Prince Gennaro of Bourbon-Two Sicilies (b.1966)
  5. Prince Casimiro of Bourbon-Two Sicilies (b.1938)
  6. Prince Luigi of Bourbon-Two Sicilies (b.1970)

The Spanish line was never considered to have dynastic rights by the Castros due to the Act of Cannes. It was always understood that the junior (Prince Gabriele) line would follow the Castro branch if it became extinct. I do not know the situation currently, but for many years several princes of the junior branch were members of the Castro obedience of the Constantinian Order of St. George.
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  #43  
Old 05-26-2016, 01:48 PM
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Yes, but now Antonio's line has been bypassed too by denying his birthright in favour of the two young Princesses, he might well side with Pedro (the most senior male agnate) and support his claim out of resentment. Note that it has been silent so far from Antonio's side. It is possible a third claimant may become reality, the worst scenario for the House. I do not believe Antonio can bear it that the daughters possibly marry commoners and that then suddenly the royal line becomes the children of a Mr Smith. I have the idea this will trigger a contra-coup in the House Bourbon-Two Sicilies.
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  #44  
Old 05-26-2016, 01:56 PM
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I feel the Duke of Castro has been deaf to his advisors, neglecting his family patrimonium and the values of his grand dynasty under the influence of that woman, Camilla. In her blind ambition to see her daughters she is willing to play va banque with her husband's august House.
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  #45  
Old 05-26-2016, 02:42 PM
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Yes, but now Antonio's line has been bypassed too by denying his birthright in favour of the two young Princesses, he might well side with Pedro (the most senior male agnate) and support his claim out of resentment. Note that it has been silent so far from Antonio's side. It is possible a third claimant may become reality, the worst scenario for the House. I do not believe Antonio can bear it that the daughters possibly marry commoners and that then suddenly the royal line becomes the children of a Mr Smith. I have the idea this will trigger a contra-coup in the House Bourbon-Two Sicilies.
Antonio has shown no real interest in family matters. There are other things that I cannot (yet) write about, but the Duke of Castro's behavior at the dinner in 2014 appears to have shown that he was never serious about the agreement he signed only hours before.
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  #46  
Old 05-26-2016, 02:46 PM
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Yes, but now Antonio's line has been bypassed too by denying his birthright in favour of the two young Princesses, he might well side with Pedro (the most senior male agnate) and support his claim out of resentment. Note that it has been silent so far from Antonio's side. It is possible a third claimant may become reality, the worst scenario for the House. I do not believe Antonio can bear it that the daughters possibly marry commoners and that then suddenly the royal line becomes the children of a Mr Smith. I have the idea this will trigger a contra-coup in the House Bourbon-Two Sicilies.
Well, time will tell.

We do not live in the Middle Ages anymore. Many of the members of these royal families live fairly normal lives; they simply have a very fascinating ancestry and heritage. Prince Francesco and his wife live and work in Switzerland; Prince Casimiro and his wife had properties in Brazil they were managing, but I had heard that they were going to be spending more time in Italy.

Prince Antonio and his family may react; or they may not. They have always been very discreet--even more so than the Calabria branch. Whether they have any interest in the succession of their house will probably become apparent in the next few weeks.
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  #47  
Old 05-26-2016, 02:52 PM
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I feel the Duke of Castro has been deaf to his advisors, neglecting his family patrimonium and the values of his grand dynasty under the influence of that woman, Camilla. In her blind ambition to see her daughters she is willing to play va banque with her husband's august House.
It is hard to understand why the Duchess of Castro should be faulted for being an ambitious woman.

It is much better to possess an excess of that trait than a deficit of it.

Just as the Duchess of Calabria has been a credit to Prince Pedro, so has the Duchess of Castro been an asset to Prince Carlo.
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  #48  
Old 05-26-2016, 03:17 PM
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Probably some of the Princes will support now HRH the Duke of Calabria.
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  #49  
Old 05-26-2016, 06:03 PM
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I hope so. It will become a mess when Princess Maria-Carolina marries -let us say- a Prince Borghese, and that then the husband assumes the surname Bourbon as a continuation of the royal dynasty while there is a more senior straight male agnatic line, the real Bourbons vs the so-called-Bourbons.

Of course this happened before, for an example Count Pierre de Polignac assuming the surname Grimaldi, but there he was marrying the last Grimaldi heiress.

In Sweden we see the same mess: former Crown Prince Carl Philip and his son are the straight agnatic male continuation of the Bernadotte Kings. But hey... at the left they see Westlings renamed Bernadotte and at the right O'Neills renamed Bernadotte as well. It is just a big mess. The Grandmasteship of the Ordrs will also become detached from the House because it follows male primogeniture.
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  #50  
Old 05-26-2016, 06:25 PM
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The horror, hiding in a corner from the horror, people changing last name, the horror. Its terrifying beyond belief. The people of Sweden must be living a nightmare. God's appointed male heir has been passed over for a girl, pandemonium will certainly ensue. How Monaco ever survived a female heir is beyond me.

Okay done laughing. Well maybe not. Sweden will survive a queen, as they have done in the past (they have had reigning queens). Just as the UK and Denmark are, and the Netherlands did for over a hundred years. The thought that a man changing his last name could cause panic and riots, is laughable at best.

Two Sicilies doesn't even have a throne any more. So nothing to even contest any more. I guess if Prince Antonius, the one who actually has a claim to the throne after Castro, decides to complain he has a say. But the Spanish branch gave up their claim decades ago. They chose to give it up to be in line for Spain, they have no reason to complain now.

Besides Spanish nobility introduced equal primogeniture, so the concept of Castro's daughter inheriting shouldn't be too foreign to them. Besides, they pride themselves on their claim to the Spanish throne, which they claim through the Female line.
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  #51  
Old 05-26-2016, 07:06 PM
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If we want to 'blame' anybody for this mess I think we should start with the person in whose name this all has been set in motion. That person would be the duke of Castro and not his wife. Of course the 'cherchez la femme' may be entertaining but it isn't very fair to blame the wife for the husbands actions.

I can imagine that the duke and perhaps also the duchess would like to see their eldest daughter succeed to the claim. However it leaves the way open to a 3rd claim to the headship of the House of the Two Sicilies and of the Constantinian order. So although it is an understandable wish, I do not think it is the wisest outcome.

It is a pity that the reconciliation seems shortlived. I found it actually an interesting way to solve the dispute and hoped more families would follow suit.
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  #52  
Old 05-27-2016, 04:19 AM
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The horror, hiding in a corner from the horror, people changing last name, the horror. Its terrifying beyond belief. The people of Sweden must be living a nightmare. God's appointed male heir has been passed over for a girl, pandemonium will certainly ensue. How Monaco ever survived a female heir is beyond me.

Okay done laughing. Well maybe not. Sweden will survive a queen, as they have done in the past (they have had reigning queens). Just as the UK and Denmark are, and the Netherlands did for over a hundred years. The thought that a man changing his last name could cause panic and riots, is laughable at best.

Two Sicilies doesn't even have a throne any more. So nothing to even contest any more. I guess if Prince Antonius, the one who actually has a claim to the throne after Castro, decides to complain he has a say. But the Spanish branch gave up their claim decades ago. They chose to give it up to be in line for Spain, they have no reason to complain now.

Besides Spanish nobility introduced equal primogeniture, so the concept of Castro's daughter inheriting shouldn't be too foreign to them. Besides, they pride themselves on their claim to the Spanish throne, which they claim through the Female line.
If you start that way, we can also shudder and horror: Princesses? Dukes? Queens? In 2016? So I find that pretty inconsequent to blame me for my resistance on all these changes. If you have a monarchy or a royal family then that is because for centuries a certain system has been followed. In my option you better do not tweak an archaïc and outdated institution in a vain hope to "modernize" it to 2016. Do it properly: go for a republic.

The argument "modernizing" wil allways lose it because a monarchy is intrinsically always an outdated and archaïc institution. But you know what? I love it. But then in the properly outdated, archaïc and traditional manner indeed. What I see in the Netherlands, Sweden or Norway is no monarchy. They play a royal family. In all these countries, the most modern, most tweaked, most gender-equal, etc. the general approval is under pressure anyway. Tweak or no twaek. Modern or not modern.
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  #53  
Old 05-27-2016, 09:52 AM
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So what would the alternative be? The reigning houses will have to marry equally and with male succession only? Such rules in this day and age would be completely unacceptable for the vast majority of the public.

Instead the surviving royal families / constitutions updated their rules to be more in line with the values of this day and age. You may not like these values but in the Western world the support for rules limiting the marital candidates of royals to a handful of -related- royals would be zero. Likewise, society has developed different patterns in terms of gender equality over the last 150-100 years. Male succession only would be unacceptable to most of the Western public. If the royal families would have clung to these standards they would have disappeared. I suppose the abdications are a more recent trend that may spread to more monarchies in the next generation too. However the core principle of a monarchy is the hereditary principle, not the extra rules that have been made up as support of this principle along the way.

The non-reigning royal houses took a bit longer to follow the trend set by the reigning families and society as a whole. Most only allowed 'unequal' marriages since the 80-ties or 90-ties and still forbade them in the 60-ties when it became en vogue in the reigning families. And while many reigning families changed the female succession rules in the 80-ties and 90-ties, several non-reigning families are trying to follow suit 1 generation later.

Your view of a monarchy is the surest way to retire them to a museum or Disneyland. You seem to want to go back to a past that probably never really existed and past values that have no base of support at all in any of the countries in the Western world. A romantic idea perhaps but not a realistic option. Society has changed since 1916. No king or queen could stop these changes and neither can you or I. In 2016 the European monarchies are an anachronism in the meritocracies that most Western countries have become. They survived in countries that were stable and mostly prosperous, which gave the publics little insentives to test big changes or start a revolution. A method for survival was to change along with the changes that happened in society. It is a small miracle that we still have ten monarchies around in Europe. No amount of equal marriages, agnatic succession laws or diamonds, pearls and carriages would have made this amount larger.
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  #54  
Old 05-27-2016, 12:55 PM
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My viewpoint is pretty simple: King Carl XVI Gustaf is King because he was the most senior male agnate from a dynastic marriage. He has Bernadotte relatives once declared "undynastic" because they (*shock!* and *horror!*) married a Countess or so. King Carl XVI Gustav himself is the youngest child and is King, precisely because he is a fruit of a dynastically approved marriage and because he is the only son born in that marriage. Now he threw overboard the very same rules which excluded his Bernadotte family members to marry a Brazilean hostess. Then -inconsequently- the King had to witness -with grinding teeth- that his son was bypassed because of gender equality.

So, when it suited His Majesty, he changed the rules of the game to marry his Brazilean beauty. Oh, how modern. But when it did not suit His Majesty, he disapproved that his son lost his rights but was powerless. More inconsequence is not possible.

Prince Carlo of Bourbon-Two Sicilies claims his position exactly because he pointed to three fixed arrangements: the succesion on base of male primogeniture, the Neapolitan treaty which came handy to oust the most senior male agnatic line ánd the Act of Cannes of 1900. But hey... Now that the Prince himself violated House rules by marrying a commoner, suddenly these rules were "oldfashioned" of course (and Camilla's money came handy). When this unequal but "dynastical" marriage produced only daughters, of course the very same old rules which made Prince Carlo pretender of his House once again seemed flexible: suddenly the EU, which did not exist during the kingdom, was dragged in to justify the changes in favour of his daughters. Aaaw.... How modern! Of course he would never have changed a letter of it when he had a son... but that is another story.

It is this spineless bowing with every wind which disgust me. Prince Georg-Friedrich of Prussia married according the rules of his House. He knew the consequences for not doing so. He obeyed to the standards of his House. I have respect for that. I have also respect for royals who marry commoners and accept the consequences.

I have no respect for royals who enjoy all pleasures of their position but are not willing to adapt to the rules of their own game. Instead of then leaving their royal life, they crawl, bend, spin, roll, stretch in any fantasy-direction to have what they want.

What a farce. Please, if this spineless and principle-less vaudeville is "modern monarchy", do it consequent and properly: call for a republic and elect your own commoner to host state banquets or welcome ambassadors! "Coping with modern times is no argument. Monarchies will always loose on that, no matter how many fitness trainers or bank clerks are entering Europe's monarchies. Yes, they are living anachronisms. Live up to it. To the unavoidable end.
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  #55  
Old 05-27-2016, 01:38 PM
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But hey... Now that the Prince himself violated House rules by marrying a commoner, suddenly these rules were "oldfashioned" of course (and Camilla's money came handy). When this unequal but "dynastical" marriage produced only daughters, of course the very same old rules which made Prince Carlo pretender of his House once again seemed flexible: suddenly the EU, which did not exist during the kingdom, was dragged in to justify the changes in favour of his daughters. Aaaw.... How modern!
Equal marriage was NEVER a pre-requisite for a member of the Two Sicilies dynasty in order to find a partner and enter into the marital union.

The only requirement set out by the Constitution of 1820, the Royal Act of 1829, the Royal Act of 1836 and the Constitution of 1848 was that all dynasts had to receive "prior consent" from the Sovereign (now: the Head of House) in order for the marriage to be valid and for any issue descending to have dynastic rights.

When Prince Carlo, Duke of Castro, married in 1998, he did so WITH the prior consent of his father, Prince Ferdinando, which meant that any issue of Prince Carlo would have succession rights. When Prince Pedro, then Duke of Noto, married in 2001, he did so WITHOUT the prior consent of his father, Infante D. Carlos, which meant that any issue of Prince Pedro would not have succession rights (or even a royal title)--this was the reality until Infante D. Carlos changed his mind in 2004 after what was viewed by the Infante and his family as the mesalliance between the current King and Queen of Spain. Basta.

For some background on the actual laws involved with this, please visit this link: The Succession Laws of the Two Sicilies
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Old 05-28-2016, 05:00 AM
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My viewpoint is pretty simple: King Carl XVI Gustaf is King because he was the most senior male agnate from a dynastic marriage. He has Bernadotte relatives once declared "undynastic" because they (*shock!* and *horror!*) married a Countess or so. King Carl XVI Gustav himself is the youngest child and is King, precisely because he is a fruit of a dynastically approved marriage and because he is the only son born in that marriage. Now he threw overboard the very same rules which excluded his Bernadotte family members to marry a Brazilean hostess. Then -inconsequently- the King had to witness -with grinding teeth- that his son was bypassed because of gender equality.

So, when it suited His Majesty, he changed the rules of the game to marry his Brazilean beauty. Oh, how modern. But when it did not suit His Majesty, he disapproved that his son lost his rights but was powerless. More inconsequence is not possible.

Prince Carlo of Bourbon-Two Sicilies claims his position exactly because he pointed to three fixed arrangements: the succesion on base of male primogeniture, the Neapolitan treaty which came handy to oust the most senior male agnatic line ánd the Act of Cannes of 1900. But hey... Now that the Prince himself violated House rules by marrying a commoner, suddenly these rules were "oldfashioned" of course (and Camilla's money came handy). When this unequal but "dynastical" marriage produced only daughters, of course the very same old rules which made Prince Carlo pretender of his House once again seemed flexible: suddenly the EU, which did not exist during the kingdom, was dragged in to justify the changes in favour of his daughters. Aaaw.... How modern! Of course he would never have changed a letter of it when he had a son... but that is another story.

It is this spineless bowing with every wind which disgust me. Prince Georg-Friedrich of Prussia married according the rules of his House. He knew the consequences for not doing so. He obeyed to the standards of his House. I have respect for that. I have also respect for royals who marry commoners and accept the consequences.

I have no respect for royals who enjoy all pleasures of their position but are not willing to adapt to the rules of their own game. Instead of then leaving their royal life, they crawl, bend, spin, roll, stretch in any fantasy-direction to have what they want.

What a farce. Please, if this spineless and principle-less vaudeville is "modern monarchy", do it consequent and properly: call for a republic and elect your own commoner to host state banquets or welcome ambassadors! "Coping with modern times is no argument. Monarchies will always loose on that, no matter how many fitness trainers or bank clerks are entering Europe's monarchies. Yes, they are living anachronisms. Live up to it. To the unavoidable end.
I am not sure what Queen Silvia's nationality -which was German and not Brazilian- has to do with it. But perhaps you can look at your own royals as well: Queen Juliana married a morgonaut of the Lippe family while Beatrix married one of the endless numbers of Prussian Junkers. Not very equal either. Not that equality mattered as this was never ever a 'rule', neither in parlament nor in any house laws. They also changed the rules of female succession along the way: in the 18th century already to include princess Carolina when it was not sure she would have a younger brother (Willem V). Due to this rule it was possible for Wilhelmina to succeeed instead of the Duke of Nassau. Over time rules are made uo, changed, dropped and added along the way, as is the case for any institution.

Your ideas are more farcical and artificial than the farce you describe. You are the one who wants to force people to chose a marital partner from a select group of 2 or 3 related cousins. You are the one who wants to force gender-unequality upon these families. You seem to enjoy complaining about how unworthy these royals are since they moved on since 1916 and you seem to enjoy 'threatening' to become a republican (again). Perhaps you should go ahead as it is unlikely that any of the royal families have any appetite at all to live up to your over-romantic ideas and the rules by which you think it is legitemate to dictate their private lives.

What you try very hard not to see is that there is no support at all in society for either gender-inequality or equal marriages. I doubt very much that you even dare to express the ideas you voice here out loud to f.e. collegues or friends.That is how unimaginable they have become for most people. Unlike you, monarchies do not have the luxery to deny reality and live in an endless melancholic dream about 100 years ago. They operate in the current society, to survive they have to seek for new mechanisms for support of the institute and drop instruments or rules that were useful in the past but have became a a burden or a hindrance in 2016.
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Old 05-28-2016, 06:26 AM
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The Dutch should have opted for a republic indeed. Then the people can elect their own best man with -possibly- a nice blonde lady next to him who can baptize ships too and be glamorous when hosting the President of Germany in the presidential palace at Dam Square. And that moment will come sooner than we think and it is all by the royals themselves. They have completely eroded their very own position.

That the previous Duke of Calabria, an Infante of Spain himself, felt forced to declare the marriage of his own son to Miss Landaluce "dynastic" because his youthfriend, his school- and soulmate Don Juan Carlos felt pressed into a corner by his own son and his own wife to give in and welcome Miss Ortiz: what could he do?

It is all that wriggling like slimey eels in a bucket: "what can we do to marry the one commoner after the other and still pretend that we are royal, that whe are Altezas Reales, that we are given a generous royal lifestyle at the taxpayers' expense?"

It is spineless, principle-less. Period. The sons of Van Vollenhoven -himself still a commoner- are "princes". And so are the children of O'Neill, himself still a commoner. They are given ducal titles, personal arms, are called "Highness". Just the kiddies of Pieter and Chris. God beware me. What a vaudeville.
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  #58  
Old 05-28-2016, 07:12 AM
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"Best man with a nice blond lady at his side"

Well, I'm glad at least this thread has returned were it started, with the Duke and Duchess of Castro

(Lucky the royals have adepted better to modern times, otherwise they'd be extinct like the dinosaurs)
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  #59  
Old 05-28-2016, 08:31 AM
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So the reconciliation of the two branches belongs already to the past.
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Old 05-28-2016, 01:16 PM
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"Best man with a nice blond lady at his side"

Well, I'm glad at least this thread has returned were it started, with the Duke and Duchess of Castro

(Lucky the royals have adepted better to modern times, otherwise they'd be extinct like the dinosaurs)


It indeed was necessary for the reigning monarchies to adapt their succession laws, otherwise they would soon be forced to join the club of the ex-reigning families. The population of democratic countries just wouldn't put up with gender un-equality any more, nor would they accept that one of their own shouldn't be good enough to marry into the RF.

Luckily the reigning RFs have legislation on their side. With a government changing the the constitution so that the new line of succession is legally 'water-proof', there is hardly a chance for anyone to challenge the succession. The succession is enforced by the law the country, no way to muck around with that. It's different for the former ruling families, because they are no longer recognized by the law. If someone tries to change those, there will always be someone else to loose out, to question the change, to deny the validity of the change, etc, etc. Law courts won't bother with these succession matters, because the don't recognize these houses as legal entities. So these royal house are just bound to quarrel among themselves, there seems hardly any chance for unity, imho.
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