Royal, Princely and Comital Titles

[MAfan]

In Italy only the children and grandchildren of the Kings of Italy and of the Two Sicilies can carry the title of Royal Prince (of Italy or of Bourbon-Two Sicilies).

 

[jonnydep]

mafan.......what about the members of the house of bourbon parma !!. members of this italian ducal family bears the title of prince and princess of bourbon-parma with the qualification HRH.....or have i missunderstood something here ?

 

[amedea]

mafan.......what about the members of the house of bourbon parma !!. members of this italian ducal family bears the title of prince and princess of bourbon-parma with the qualification HRH.....or have i missunderstood something here ?

Yes, Bourbon-Parma are Royal Highnesses. And the Austria-Este and the Habsburg-Lothringen-Tuscany are Imperial and Royal Highnesses. However they all have this styles because of their appartenance to non-Italian Royal or Imperial families: Spanish RF for the Parma, Habsburg for the others.
It would be intresting to know which families in Italy have the style of Serene Highess: the only one I'm sure is the Gonzaga di Vescovato.

 

[MAfan]

mafan.......what about the members of the house of bourbon parma !!. members of this italian ducal family bears the title of prince and princess of bourbon-parma with the qualification HRH.....or have i missunderstood something here ?

Yes, the Bourbon-Parma are Princes and Royal Highness; but what I meant is that in the Kingdom of Italy (House Savoy) and in the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies the children and the grandchildren of the Sovereign (or of the Head) carry a specific title, that is Royal Prince of Italy and Royal Prince of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, whule the other members of the two families are Princes of Savoy and Princes of Bourbon-Two Sicilies.

Yes, when I asked about Royal Princes vs. Noble Princes, I didn't mean a prince bearing the style HRH (His Royal Highness). I was referencing a general class of individuals defined as royality and princes (Imperial Princes through Princely Counts) or those of HIH HRH HSH HILLH. My question was not specifically those who bear the title HRH Prince in Italy.

A Princely Count (HILLH), for example, is someone of the royal social class and defined as a prince. While noble princes, like the Boromeo family (as confirmed above), have the title prince, but are not of the royal social class (or a prince who is HIH HRH HSH or HILLH). Someone of HILLH Count, is substantially higher and infact royalty, versus a noble family who happens to have the title of Prince, but is substantiall lower and not of the royal social class.

Ok, now I understand your question; btw, in Italy the styles of Serene Highness and Illustrious Highness are not used; they comes from Germany, and are used by the German Arictocracy; some Italian noble Families, like Gonzaga Family as Amedea said, use these qualifications, but they are all families linked to the Holy Roman Empire; the Head of the Gonzaga Family is a Serene Highness, but because he is a Prince of the Holy Roman Empire.
In Italy the members of Princely and Ducal Houses are usually styled Excellency.

 

[jonnydep]

cheers buddy !! i was not aware of this fact....its makes sense considering that the families of modena, parma and tuscany are ducal families.....do i take it (in simple terms) that the members of these families derive their styles and qualifications due to their descent from the royal / imperial famlies of bourbon / habsburg ?

 

[MAfan]

Well, the members of the Grand Ducal Family of Tuscany and of the Ducal House of Modena and Reggio are still members of the Austrian Imperial House, so that's why they carry the titles of Archdukes of Austria and Princes of Hungary and Bohemia, and therefore Imperial and Royal Highnesses; about the members of the Ducal House of Parma, they are Princes of Bourbon due to they descend from the Spanish and French Royal Family, and therefore they are Royal Highnesses.
If they didn't desced from the Imperial House of Austria and the Royal House of Spain, the members of the Grand Ducal House of Tuscany would have been only Royal Highnesses (style recognised to the Medicis), and the members of the Ducal Houses of Modena and Parma only Ducal Highnesses.

 

[jonnydep]

Parma are still members of the Austrian Imperial House, so that's why they carry the titles of Archdukes of Austria and Princes of Hungary and Bohemia, and therefore Imperial and Royal Highnesses.

sorry.....i think you are mistaken here !!

 

[MAfan]

You're right, I meant Modena and Reggio (this night I'm completely out...)
I correct it.

 

[amedea]

There was a question about various Italian titles that use Count. The following is a list that ranks lowest to highest.


Conte:
This would be a noble count, ranking between a Viscount and a Marquis. The title was granted by concessione (concession) and registered as Conte. or Conte (m.), for the male members of the House. The title is written as Count.

Conte Palatino:
This would be a Count Palatine, or a nobleman who was given authority to rule over his county freely without answering to anyone above him. Count Palatines could marry members of royalty, and still be legitimate unions. It was granted by concession and registered as Conte (Palat.). The title translates as a "High Count". The title is written as Count.


Conte Maschera:
This would be a princely count (Gerfursteter Graf). Conte Maschera's are a type of prince of the royal social class, typically of cadet branches to a royal or imperial house. The title must be issued with Decreto Reale (con D.R.)and with the process of sottodescitto (princely underwriting) to fully elevate to the dignity of a Princely Count. The title is registered as Conte (Masch.) The title translates as a "Count of Royal Dress". It is coupled with the princely style His Illustrious Highness. The title is written H.Ill.H. Count.

I am in someway perplexed on the above statements. I have never heard about such "conte maschera" and about Italian "princely counts". I doubt of their existance. And I am pretty sure no cadet branch of any royal or imperial house had that title.
Surely in the kingdom of Sardinia and in the kingdom of Italy there were just "counts". And I think it was the same in Parma, Modena, Tuscany, Holy See ("roman count") and 2 Sicilies. And also in the Austrian Empire (that had many terrritories in Italy).
In my understanding "palatine counts" means no more than counts created by the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. The title was (don't know if always or just in many cases) recognized by the Italian states, but I wouldn't speak of an higher rank. Surely "palatine counts" are NOT of royal rank. They must not be confused with those branches of the Wittelsbach family who were "pfalzgraf".

 

[MAfan]

Yes, I agree with you, Amedea.
I've never heard of the Italian titles of Palatine Count and "Conte Maschera".
In particular I have doubts about the second one: first of all, "royal dress" is not a translation of "maschera" ("mask"); moreover, as I have already said, in Italy the style of Illustrious Highness is not used, except for those families whose titles were given by the Emperor of Austria; but it was not a style recognised in Italy, as well as Serene Highness (only some members of the Italian Royal Family can carry the style of Serene Highness, but it never happened).
The only thing I can think of similar to the situation Ruspoli Princess previously described are those Princes, members of a Royal House, who were given ad personam by their Sovereign a Comital title (for example, Prince Vittorio Emanuele of Savoy, Count of Torino; Prince Umberto of Savoy, Count of Salemi; Prince Alfonso of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, Count of Caserta; Prince Leopoldo of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, Count of Siracusa; Prince Jaime of Bourbon-Parma, Count of Bardi).
During the Kingdom of Italy, these titles were given through a Royal Decree.
But these Princes remained Princes, and Royal Highnesses; their style never changed to a lower one (which is the Illustrious Highness style).

 

[MAfan]

In fact, that's why a set or princely styles were standardized at the Congress of Vienna, HIH HRH HSH HILLH. It was so it was easier to know who was of the royal social class.

This is the point: the styles you listed are used by the members of ruling or ex ruling families inside the Holy Roman Empire; now most of them are considered only nobles, but at the time they had just stopped to be rulers due to the dissolution of the HRE.
About the "Conti Maschera" about whom I've found only one page in the internet - I guess you know it - we have to clarify one point: are they members of Italian Royal Families or of Italian noble Families?
If they were Royals, even if they were given a Comital title they would remain Royal Highnesses or Imperial and Royal Highnesses;
if they were nobles, the style of Illustrious Highness is not for them, since they were not former rulers of the HRE.
Btw, can you provide some examples of "Conti Maschera" in Italy?

 

[amedea]

No way! That page must be not reliable at all! The Emperor of Austria could NOT make anyone a member of a Royal family!! That's non-sense!
It is true that there were some countly families who were considered equal in marriages with royalty: they were the mediatized houses. No one else. And it was very clear that no sovereign could create a "mediatized house".
Ruspoli princess, I hope you're example of "conti maschera" will not be that Barbaro family you seem to like a lot. All that story about them as a cadet branch of the Habsburgs in a "grand principality of Transylvania" is rubbish. I am surprised that the post about it hasn't been deleted!

 

[MAfan]

But both in Austria and Germany a family elevated to the Princely Rank bears the style of Serene Highness (Durchlaucht), not Illustrious Highness (Erlaucht).
Only the German and Austrian comital family members are Illustrious Highnesses (for example, Neipperg Family).

Princely Count is not a title used within Italy

So why to list it among the Italian "types" of Counts?

Btw, except for Barbaro Family which other families have been created Princely Counts by the Emperors of Austria?

 

[MAfan]

Ruspoli Princess,
I've nothing against you and I don't want to offend you, but if your way to answer the questions asked to you is to post for the second time your previous posts - and my was a rather simple question - I don't think we have anything more to share here.
Several elements of this topic make me things that it is all foolish; you seem to be the only person who knows this story, but I can't see in your posts any element able to clarify me the whole story, at all, but on the contrary every post you add makes things more confused, in my opinion.
So, I would be glad if you would answer my question and be more detailed in your posts; if not, I will be every moment more persuaded that the whole story is a fake nonsense.

 

[MAfan]

I'm not happy if the thread is removed, I'm happy if you answer to my question and help me to understand the whole story; despite of my young age, it's some years that I'm interested in the italian nobility, and I've never heard anything about the "Conte Maschera" or Princely Count title.
So I ask again: can you tell me the names of some of the families whose members carry this title or some person who carries this title?

 

[Warren]

But we seem to have confussion in what we are calling the 'Royal Social Class' in comparison to the 'Noble Social Class". Noble families who bear the title Princely Count, were allowed to marry members of Royalty, it is a title included within the royal social class. Nobles who do not have a title of highness could not marry within the royal social class. Maybe, I'm not writing clearly, but these are complex topics we are dealing with now.

Count Palatine's could marry Royals and that was a legitimate marriage.

This is getting unnecessarily messy and confusing, and isn't complex but quite straightforward.

Simply put, the Mediatised families had (have) equal ranking with the Ruling families in terms of marriage eligibility.
Style and/or title is not relevant; the sole determinant of equal rank (ebenbürtig) is the status of the family as it applied within the HRE.

 

[Next Star]

There is a difference between being royal and noble that is why styles are involuved with titles in the first place.I will show you some examples of a royal prince and a noble prince with two Italian well known princes on my post and here they are:
Okay Prince Carlos-Hugo who is head of the House of Bourbon-Parma is royal because he is styled as royal highness and then Prince
Lorenzo Borhgme excuse my spelling if incorrect is not style making him a noble prince.

 

[MAfan]

I understand what you mean, Next Star; but I would change the first example, since Emanuele Filiberto's (I guess you were thinking about him) being a royal is a rather disputed matter; another example may be Prince Amedeo, who is and undisputed Royal.
About the second, do you mean Lorenzo Borghese?

 

[Next Star]

I understand what you mean, Next Star; but I would change the first example, since Emanuele Filiberto's (I guess you were thinking about him) being a royal is a rather disputed matter; another example may be Prince Amedeo, who is and undisputed Royal.
About the second, do you mean Lorenzo Borghese?

Yes the second prince you mention in your post I was referring to him.
I change my first part of my post and used another Italian prince that is well-known and who is not disputed as a royal prince.

 

[MAfan]

Yes, in Italy we have thousends of noble families, only in Sicily they are more then 2000, but just 5 royal Families (Savoy, Bourbon-Two Sicilies, Austria-Toscana, Austria-Este, Bourbon-Parma).

 

[Next Star]

I known there were some royal Italian families walking around but the I did not know there are more noble families wow I just learned something brand new thanks MAfan.

 

[MAfan]

You're welcome!
In this site you can see a list of some of the most prominent noble families in Italy; as you can see, even in this list they are a lot!
It is also possible to register in the website, and see the genealogies of most of these listed families.

 

[amedea]

It is also possible to register in the website, and see the genealogies of most of these listed families.

Is it? For me it has always been impossible. I have read that the site didn't respect some copyright rules and so the genealogies are now not avalable.

 

[MAfan]

As far as I know, it is possible; some times ago, more or less 2 years ago, it was free, you could see the genealogies without the registration, but now...

 

[Next Star]

I know members of the royal house of Bourbon-Parma hold duke and count subtitles and also Two Siclies,and Savoy but other Italian royal or noble families I did not mention hold those type of subtitles too?

 

[prmn]

Duke of Modena and Reggio

I have a question about Rinaldo d'Este, Duke of Modena
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinaldo_d'Este
Why was he styled His Royal Highness? He was only a duke, his father wasn't a king. The previous duke of Modena, Francesco II was HH not HRH.
So why was Rinaldo HRH? Because he married Princess Charlotte of Brunswick-Lüneburg? But she was HSH before marriage.

8 March 1671 – 11 February 1696 Her Serene Highness Duchess Charlotte Felicity of Brunswick-Lüneburg
1 February 1696 – 29 September 1710 Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Modena and Reggio

So why was Rinaldo given HRH style?

 

[MAfan]

It happened in the same period when also the Duke of Savoy and the Grand Duke of Tuscany were recognized by the Holy Roman Emperor as Royal Highnesses.
The title was given to Duke Vittorio Amedeo II of Savoy in 1689 when he broke his alliance with France; then Grand Duke Cosimo III of Tuscany started complaining with all the European monarchs because the Duke of Savoy was recognized as Royal Highness, while he, a Grand Duke, wasn't, and repeatedly demanded to be recognized as Royal Highness too; finally in 1691 the Emperor granted him the style.

Back to the question, I don't know the answer for sure, but I can't help thinking that, when the Duke of Savoy and the Grand Duke of Tuscany were granted the Royal Highness style, also the Duke of Modena may have protested and demanded for the same style, and he may have obtained it (if the Emperor granted it to the other two, why not to him too?).

 

[amedea]

It happened in the same period when also the Duke of Savoy and the Grand Duke of Tuscany were recognized by the Holy Roman Emperor as Royal Highnesses.
The title was given to Duke Vittorio Amedeo II of Savoy in 1689 when he broke his alliance with France;

So the title of King of Cyprus and Jerusalem used sometimes by the Savoys was not recognized by others? Or maybe just by someone? Or were they Kings without being Majesties and Royal Highnesses?

 

[MAfan]

I don't think anyone really cared of these titles; too many people claimed (and still may claim) the title of King of Jerusalem; if all the claimant to that title were recognized as Royal Highnesses, also the Princes of La Tremoille in the past and now the Princes of Ligne-La Tremoille should be Royal Highnesses, but nobody acknowledged this style for them.
As for the King of Cyprus title, I really don't know how it was regarded by the other European Sovereigns.

 

[David V]

Here's some page about the Sicilian peerage: Best of Sicily - Noble Peers of Sicily
The Sicilian Peerage
The Peerage of Sicily