May 1946: The Fall of the Monarchy

[Marsel]

Originally Posted by MAfan

Well, once the King had given him the permission in 1982/3, Amedeo doesn't need more permissions.
Yes, both them recognized the Law of the Italian republic, but it's a nonsense a judicial intervent against Amedeo about a title that officially doesn't exist...Or saying that Amedeo can't be the heir of King Umberto because the present italian law state that one can't be the heir of another person if thay have more then 6 degrees of relationship...(VE has told also this!)

As far as I understand, the permission of the Head of the House is required at the time the marriage actually takes place; at the time of Amedeo's second marriage, the head of the House of Savoy (recognized by Amedeo as well) was Vittorio Emanuele.

The laws are the same for everyone; when Amedeo and Vittorio Emanuele acknowledged the Italian Republic, they also acknowledged its laws, whatever they are.
The claim about 6 degrees of relationship is quite ridiculous though.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on some points. At least, we both agree that the future is with Aimone and little Umberto.

[Tosca]

And what about the "Allied"?. If I'm correct, the Americans didn't want Italy to remain a Kingdom.

[MAfan]

Also that's true...while the British government wanted the Monarchy in order to avoid the possibility of a communist government in Italy.

[Tosca]

Originally Posted by MAfan

Also that's true...while the British government wanted the Monarchy in order to avoid the possibility of a communist government in Italy.

But, paradoxically the U.S.S.R. openly supported the monarchy. Stalin was the first to recognize the Kingdom of Southern Italy when the King and his retinue repaired to Brindisi, after Mussolini created the REpublic of Salò in the North.
Besides, the leader of the Italian Communist Party, Palmiro Togliatti wasn't completely against the monarchy: he would have accepted to see the little Prince Vittorio Emanuele be educated by a group of great minds, such as philosopher Benedetto Croce, before ascending the throne.

[amedea]

I would like to underline that the fact that Amedeo and Aimone (he did too) swore fidelity to the republic in occasion of their militar duties doesn't exclude them from the succession: Amedeo, who could decide not to seve in the army, asked the advice of King Umberto II who answered "Italy first of all"; an advice followed by Aimone too..
And then, are we saying that in an hipotetic future in which the majority of Italians want a monarchy (so not being "faithfull" to the Republic), the only ones to be binded to such a kind of oath would be the members of the Royal Family??

[MAfan]

Also in the past, the italian army swore fidelity to the King; and when His Majesty left Italy, he released the Italian army from the oath. I guess that if the Monarchy will be restored, the present italian army will be released from the oath to the republic. At least, I hope so.

Post n. 1000!!!

[Marsel]

Congratulations with the 1000th!

Why was the USA so determined to put the end to all Monarchies (of the Axis countries) after the war? They played quite a visible role in the fall of the Italian Monarchy, greatly weakened (rather, made practically ceremonial) the Japanese one. What was the motive?

[Harold]

Yes, the US really doesn't like monarchies. Look at all the trouble Wilson caused after WW1!

[COUNTESS]

President Wilson didn't cause any major problems. He tried to put together a world that would have fewer problems. Wilson had nothing to do with the dissolution of the Italian monarchy after WWII. Yes, the U.S. doesn't think monarchies have much value and they don't. The Italian people have governed themselves very well, sure a nut here and there, but who doesn't have that problem. Mussolini rose to power during a monarchy.

[lucien]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

President Wilson didn't cause any major problems. He tried to put together a world that would have fewer problems. Wilson had nothing to do with the dissolution of the Italian monarchy after WWII. Yes, the U.S. doesn't think monarchies have much value and they don't. The Italian people have governed themselves very well, sure a nut here and there, but who doesn't have that problem. Mussolini rose to power during a monarchy.

The US doesn´t think Monarchies have much value and they don´t...

A line you pinched from that most incompetent of your secretaries of state,Madeline Allbright.

Oh,really.....I do not give a flying whatshowever what the US thinks,at all.Ever!
We do not think THEY are of much use anyway,incompitent bussybodies.
< ed Warren> Do not even try to comment dear,it is all moot to a fault anyway.
This,and Sixtus,gets me a-going big time,and rightfully so.

Arrogance is a worldrenowned US trademark.
We here,in Monarchies,just shrug our shoulders for you.
Didn´t make a mess of it hey?He was trying to put a world together with fewer problems Hey?
Get real.What a fairytale nonsense line.Try another.

[Tsar Mark I]

Of course it was rigged. Most monarchists were still relocated from the war and were not able to cast their vote.

[MAfan]

It seems that 3 millions persons have not been able to vote at the referendum, because they were war prisoners or because some land (the Venezia Giulia and the cities of Bolzano and Zara) could not vote.
And 3 millions is a big number, more or less the 10% of all the Italians wth the vote right.

[MARG]

Hey that's great infomation I am sure, however I am not multi-lingual so for those of us linguistically challenged, could someone translate?

[Marsel]

Originally Posted by MARG

Hey that's great infomation I am sure, however I am not multi-lingual so for those of us linguistically challenged, could someone translate?

Here is a brief summary of the post written by Alberto2244.

Alberto2244 starts with the question whether the marriage of Vittorio Emanuele and Marina Doria was morganatic; whether it was or not, it is a matter of debate, however it was certainly a sordid affair (according to Alberto2244. Alberto2244 then reminds us of the events that happened in December of 1969 when King Umberto II called Duke of Aosta to Portugal. It was considered very likely that the King wanted to proclaim Amadeo, Duke of Aosta his Heir, because of the imminent marriage of his son, Vittorio Emanuele and Maria Doria. Learning of his cousin's departure to Portugal, Vittorio Emanuele proclaimed himself King Vittorio Emanuele IV and wrote 2 decrees. In the first decree, he claimed that his father had no right to call the referendum of 1946, as the Monarchy is independent of the popular opinion, and the King's subsequent (voluntary) exile was nothing short of an actual abdication. He signed that document King Vittorio Emanuele IV. The next day, he wrote the 2nd decree, which bestowed Marina Doria with the title of Duchess of SaintAnna di Valdieri.
According to Alberto2244, the greatest jurists and historians of Italy believe that if the Monarchy is restored, then it will be a 'newly established', not reinstated Monarchy, and Princess Maria Gabriella of Savoy agrees with that idea.
Again according to Alberto2244, Prince Vittorio Emanuele broke the 'Savoy traditions' for the beautiful eyes of Marina.

The source for the above is "Umberto II" by Gigi Speroni.



I have to add that although the above is a very interesting, I strongly disagree that if the Monarchy is reinstated in Italy, it will be a 'newly established one', rather than actually 'reinstated' Monarchy. If the Monarchy is ever restored, it is very likely that the new Monarch will be either one of Vittorio Emanuele's direct descendants, or one of the direct descendants of Amadeo, Duke of Aosta.
I've discussed some of the points above in my previous post.

[Alberto2244]

Originally Posted by Marsel

I have to add that although the above is a very interesting, I strongly disagree that if the Monarchy is reinstated in Italy, it will be a 'newly established one', rather than actually 'reinstated' Monarchy. If the Monarchy is ever restored, it is very likely that the new Monarch will be either one of Vittorio Emanuele's direct descendants, or one of the direct descendants of Amadeo, Duke of Aosta.
I've discussed some of the points above in my previous post.

Yes, your post is very good and informative! Congratulations!
I meant Umberto II apparently saw Monarchy in Italy would not be restaured but instaured, like what happenned in Spain in 1975

[Marsel]

Originally Posted by Alberto2244

I meant Umberto II apparently saw Monarchy in Italy would not be restaured but instaured, like what happenned in Spain in 1975

Thank you for clarifying, I must have misunderstood your post.