The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Non-Reigning Houses > Royal Families of Italy

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #41  
Old 05-09-2009, 07:26 AM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,373
As we have no means of verifying the truth or otherwise of this matter, the photographs and details of the alleged child have been removed.

Warren
TRF Administrator
__________________

__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05-09-2009, 07:54 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posts: 7
In reply to the comment made by a previous member who wrote:

"All this story is curious...a secret son from an unknown woman...in a period when he was said to be homosexual because of he didn't date any woman...and considering that the King was a very religious man, and moreover married...I'm not totally persuaded.
It sounds me like the story of the "son" of HIM the Shah Reza Pahlavi and Princess Maria Gabriella after their "secret wedding"..."



My Reply:
It seems there are assumptions that do not apply. It is important not to try make something different to fit - because the opportunity to discover truth will be blocked. In my reply factual information is presented and my views.

As already stated, the vatican is aware of this gentleman and I am of the understanding that two members of the family have even spoken to him. A DNA of Umberto II would be indeed be revealing - and bring an end to this.

Personally I hold strong values on fidelity and marriage as being sacred. There is the matter of also waiting til after a wedding to have a child. It is not unknown for Royalty to have illegitimate children and also relationships outside their marrage. I understand Dimitri is from a relationship with a noble lady after Umberto II and his wife Queen Maria separated. Respect to fellow members, given the topic my sharing is appropriate.

The following photograph is the enlargement of the earlier one posted. This was taken in the Vatican. As I already said he is known; by name.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05-09-2009, 08:28 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posts: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tosca View Post
I had never heard of any illegitimate children of King Umberto before, neither did the Italian press ever mentioned. Do you think if there were any love children of the King, wouldn't those tabs or cheap mags like Novella 2000 or Eva have been in their element?
I recall they had plenty of articles about Princess Maria Beatrice and actor Maurizio Arena's scandalous relationship...

Supposing that Umberto had a child out of the wedlock, he couldn't possibly be in line for the succession.
And since this man has never been officially recognized as the son of King Umberto, this remains pure speculation, so, please, let's stay on topic and move on.
Much as I appreciate your knowledge of what goes on with other Royals, Please understand that I am sharing from a compassionate heart and know factually that Dimitri would Never invite any scandal as he like his father is a man of Honor. His situation is indeed quite real and so is his heritage. The matter has been brought to your attention, unfortunately I had to reload my computer and lost a copy of the Newspaper Article heading in his name Dimitri di Savoia. If I can locate another I will post it.

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to share, in truth. However I prefer not to be drawn to discuss infidelities or debate sexual preferences. All birth records related to this gentleman are held in the archives.....

I Honor Umberto II who after leaving Italy was still much respected and Loved by people. Having spoken to Dimitri he has indicated certain matters that are not up for public discussion...Having seen documents, I personally have no reason to believe this to be anything but the truth.

As someone who is a personal advisor to Royals and Nobles, a trained holistic health therapist, counsellor, hypnotherapist psychotherapist and personal coaching; as a consultant - I have posted with integrity. Out of compassion, I have given my time for free and extensive research applied to put the pieces of this together. As someone who is regarded as a voice of reason, I was asked to write something - and will be writing an official article in due course.

My best wishes to you all.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05-09-2009, 12:55 PM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulineMaria View Post
As someone who is a personal advisor to Royals and Nobles, a trained holistic health therapist, counsellor, hypnotherapist psychotherapist and personal coaching; as a consultant -
Notwithstanding these credentials, as Tosca has previously stated we will not pursue this subject as it remains an unproven and unsubstantiated claim.

Warren
TRF Administrator
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 05-15-2009, 03:45 PM
espejor's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Sevilla, Spain
Posts: 178
Very sad the story of Maria Jose =( Do you know if she returned to Italy during the impossed exile imposed by the republican government?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchesina View Post
she spoke italian very very well, she didn't seem to be born in a french-speaking family, as Saxe-Coburg-Gotha are.
It was his obligation! She was the Queen of Italy. The "less" thing that she would have to do is to learn Italian!

I'm very impressed for the history of this woman. It's very curious to see how all the royal couples (or at least, a lot of them) were divorced when the exile arrived (for example, Alfonso XIII and Victoria Eugenia too, and V.E. loved so much Alfonso XIII).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
All this story is curious...a secret son from an unknown woman...in a period when he was said to be homosexual because of he didn't date any woman...and considering that the King was a very religious man, and moreover married...I'm not totally persuaded.
It sounds me like the story of the "son" of HIM the Shah Reza Pahlavi and Princess Maria Gabriella after their "secret wedding"...
This story if totally false! Please, let me laugh!

The Shah divorced officially of Soraya in March of 1958 and he married Farah Diba un December of 1959, but the engagement was announced in November and he kenew Farah some month ago (I'm not sure if it was in the beggining of 1959 or in the last months of 1958). It's totally impossible a "secret wedding" between them!

But it's true that there were rumours (or, at least an interest of the Shah for Maria Gabriella, or that says the magazines of the moment) that the Shah was interested in her. "L'observatore Romano" said that a union between a catholic princess and a muslim and divorced king was very dangerous for the global catholitism.

Paris Match published a report (8 pages) about this topic in 1958. I hope to buy it soon =D

Regards!!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 05-15-2009, 04:09 PM
MAfan's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: N/A, Italy
Posts: 4,326
Queen Maria José returned in Italy privately on 1 march 1988, to attend a meeting about St. Anselmo of Aosta.

About Her excellent Italian, we have to remember that before being Queen, She studied in Firenze soon after the first World War, and that She had lived in Italy for 16 years before the exile. However, her first language was not french, but german, because Her Mother Queen Elisabeth was german-born.

About the separation from the King, they never divorced, but only lived separated because of an eye illness of the Queen, who was forced to live in Switzerland beause of the climate; the matter was that the King could not stay in a country neighbouring with Italy for more then 15 days every time, so He could not live with Maria José.

Quote:
Originally Posted by espejor View Post
This story if totally false!
I know that is false: the Shah asked for marrying Maria Gabriella, but she and King Umberto refused, because of he was a muslim and too old for her.
However, a man, Josef Monhud Palhevi Savoia, claims to be the son of the Shah and of the Princess...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 05-16-2009, 09:52 AM
espejor's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Sevilla, Spain
Posts: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
I know that is false: the Shah asked for marrying Maria Gabriella, but she and King Umberto refused, because of he was a muslim and too old for her.
However, a man, Josef Monhud Palhevi Savoia, claims to be the son of the Shah and of the Princess...
Do you know why the Shah asked for Maria Habriella? Did he know her before of the divorce with Soraya?

Regards!!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 05-16-2009, 10:08 AM
MAfan's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: N/A, Italy
Posts: 4,326
I don't know it exactly; I know that the relations between Italian and Persian Royal Families were and, I think, still are narrow; maybe the Shah asked for marrying Maria Gabriella because she was the daughter of the King of Italy, a nice young woman, and coming from a fertile family...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 06-23-2009, 02:59 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: -, Brazil
Posts: 182
The plots by Queen Maria José to save the Monarchy

Libero News - Le trame dell’ultima regina per salvare la monarchia

Translation into English here:
Google Tradutor
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 07-27-2009, 08:16 AM
MAfan's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: N/A, Italy
Posts: 4,326
Rai.TV - Enigma - Maria José, l'ultima regina
Here is the link to the video of italian tv show "Enigma" about Her Majesty Queen Maria José. HRH Princess Maria Gabriella attended the show, talking about Her Mother.
Only the first half of the show (55 min. ca) is about the Queen; the video is in Italian.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 09-14-2009, 01:55 PM
amedea's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: TORINO, Italy
Posts: 621
Rai.TV - La grande storia - Umberto II di Savoia
Last week, Italian state tv broadcasted this documentary on Umberto II. Almost 2 hours speaking exactly of all the matters we disuss in this thread. The documentary was made by historian and prince Nicola Caracciolo di Castagneto. It contains parts of the historic interviews of Nicola Caracciolo to Umberto II and to Maria Josè; the others interview should be new: princess Maria Gabriella, Amedeo the duke of Savoy, king Simeone of Bulgaria, Elisabeth Janssens and prince Michel of Yugoslavia. Simeone, Elisabeth and Michel speak all, surprisingly, a perfect Italian, much better that the one of VE, EF and Maria Gabriella herself! I had never seen Elisabeth before and I find her so classy. She even has a top model-like body: so tall and thin. I have seen prince Michel for the first time too, but I can't say he is a new face: he looks similar to his twin brother and to his maternal grand-father the king. He is a very elegant man too.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 09-14-2009, 03:51 PM
MAfan's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: N/A, Italy
Posts: 4,326
Well, I've been surprised too for the perfect italian of King Simeone, but I can't tell that Princess Maria Gabriella's italian is bad...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 10-20-2009, 07:35 AM
Marengo's Avatar
Administrator
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 14,268
Princess Maria Gabriella has organised an exposition of her mothers dresses, in cooperation with the Mona Bismarck foundation.

Mona Bismarck Foundation ~ Exhibition Space

Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4
Pic 5
Pic 6

The exposition is from October 7th to December 12th at the Mona Bismarck foundation, 34, avenue de New York, in Paris.

More pics:

Pic 7
Pic 8
Pic 9
__________________
TRF Rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 01-08-2010, 12:16 PM
maria-olivia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,223
Their wedding took 6 days which was to much for King Albert Ier.
On the pictures first the King of Italy and the Queen of the belgians, both small and then the Queen of Italy and King Albert , both tall.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 08-15-2010, 06:27 PM
Daphoenyx's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Rosario, Argentina
Posts: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
About the separation from the King, they never divorced, but only lived separated because of an eye illness of the Queen, who was forced to live in Switzerland beause of the climate; the matter was that the King could not stay in a country neighbouring with Italy for more then 15 days every time, so He could not live with Maria José.
Wasn't this, like, the "official" excuse for the separation of the two?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 08-16-2010, 03:53 AM
MAfan's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: N/A, Italy
Posts: 4,326
According to Maria Jose's own words (from an interview to Giorgio Lazzarini, 1984):

"The moment perhaps most painful of my life began in Lisbon in 1947. I had a bleeding whose consequence was anaemia, uncertainties in diagnosis and hesitation of the doctors, blood transfusions performed in late, put a serious threat to my life. After a couple of days I couldn't see more. And then I fell into a state of deep shock. Aruga, the specialist come from Spain, recommended a more invigorating climate than the Atlantic climate. Switzerland, Geneva offered the appropriate climate. And in Switzerland was Franceschetti, one of the best ophthalmologists of the time."
("La parentesi forse più dolorosa della mia vita cominciò a Lisbona, nel 1947. Una emorragia mi aveva anemizzata, incertezze nelle diagnosi, esitazioni da parte dei medici, trasfusioni di sangue eseguite in ritardo, misero fortemente in pericolo la mia vita. Bastarono un paio di giorni e io non ci vedevo più. E allora caddi in uno stato di profondo sgomento. Aruga, lo specialista fatto venire dalla Spagna, consigliò un clima più vivificante di quello atlantico. La Svizzera, Ginevra offrivano il clima adatto. E in Svizzera c'era Franceschetti, uno dei maggiori oculisti dell'epoca.")

And talking about Umberto:
"They told we were separated, that we never met. Not true. And you forget that until a few years ago an international convention forbade the king to reside for more than fifteen days in a neighboring country with Italy. I had to stay in Geneva, and meeting for us has never been easy."
("Hanno raccontato che ci eravamo separati, che non ci vedevamo mai. Non è vero. E si dimentica che fino a qualche anno fa una convenzione internazionale vietava al re di risiedere per più di quindici giorni in un paese confinante con l'Italia. Io dovevo rimanere sempre a Ginevra, e incontrarci non è mai stato facile.")
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 09-09-2010, 05:04 AM
Daphoenyx's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Rosario, Argentina
Posts: 148
Well I don't know, but even in that Italian show that was linked above, Maria Gabriella only mildly opposed the thesis of her parent's separation... Everywhere else is stated the contrary... Even in some of Maria José's interviews she stated that "they were never happy"... So where is the truth?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 09-10-2010, 11:09 AM
Jason R Maier esq's Avatar
Gentry
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Columbia, United States
Posts: 74
Just a couple of questions regarding Umberto II and Marie-Jose:

1. Would the Savoys still reign had VE III abdicated in 1943 after the fall of Mussolini/Italy's surrender to the Allies? (or was the throne doomed at any rate because VE III acquiesced to the Fascists?)
2. Some have speculated that Umberto II was bisexual (and thus caused the separation). True or False?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 09-11-2010, 05:05 AM
MAfan's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: N/A, Italy
Posts: 4,326
Quote:
1. Would the Savoys still reign had VE III abdicated in 1943 after the fall of Mussolini/Italy's surrender to the Allies? (or was the throne doomed at any rate because VE III acquiesced to the Fascists?)
Maybe yes, maybe no; Umberto II acted in a excellent way when in the period he was Lieutenant and later King, from 1944 to 1946, and for sure had Vittorio Emanuele abdicated as soon as possible after the armistice it would have been much better for the Royal House.
There were also plans for the abdication of both Vittorio Emanuele III and Umberto, in order to have the little Vittorio Emanuele (IV) as King with a Regent, but these plans failed because some wanted Maria José, who was well known for being very very liberal and with no ties to fascism, as Regent while some other didn't want the regent to be a member of the Royal Family.
Last but not least, we have to remember that in 1946 the republicans, in particular certain socialist and communist politicians, were very determined to topple the Monarchy, in a way or another.
So, I can't give you an accurate answer, just I'm persuaded that in 1943 the throne wasn't doomed at any rate.

Quote:
2. Some have speculated that Umberto II was bisexual (and thus caused the separation). True or False?
As I have already explained some time ago, they were nothing more than rumors.
During the 1920s and 1930s the fascist secret police collected several files about members of the Royal Family and their relatives (Umberto, the Duke of Pistoia, the Duke of Bergamo, the Duke of Ancona, Prince Philipp of Hessen-Kassel) where were collected the so-called "evidences" of the homosexuality or bisexuality of the Princes (evidences like the friendship between Umberto and Luchino Visconti, noted homosexual, or even the fact that Umberto often gave to his guests as a present diamond broochs).
The aim of collecting these files was to discredit the Monarchy at the eyes of Italian people; Mussolini wanted to get rid of the Monarchy, and scandals about the homosexuality or bisexuality of the Royal Princes were a perfect instrument to blackmail the Monarchy. This is the origin of the rumors about Umberto's homosexuality.
Later, during the electoral campaign for the referendum, some politicians used these rumors for attacking the Monarchy and the King (the socialist Nenni used to charge the crowds up during election rallies with slogans like "Maybe do you want a pederast King?" or "if you don't vote for the republic you'll have a pederast as King").
Then it happened that during the exile the King lived separated from his wife and at the same time he didn't date other women, so some started wondering "maybe is it true that he is gay?"
They were nothing but rumors.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 09-15-2010, 12:11 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: N/A, United Kingdom
Posts: 493
Hello Jason R Mair esq.....

The Italian Royal Family, was very Supportive of the Fascist's during the 1920's and 30's, chief amongst them was King Victor Emmanuel III.....Historian's now know that the Italian Royal House was more ambivalent about the Fascist's than they indicated at the time. Both the King (and his Heir Crown-Prince Umberto) are seen to be publicly supportive of Mussolini and his Fascist party. Nevertheless, nobody is saying that the King (nor his family) was Fascist by nature nor wished to be, but given the situation and circumstances at the time, indeed it would have been very difficult for the Royal Family to not to be involved with Fascism! It is said that during his near 50 year reign, King Victor Emmanuel III had often swam with the tide!.

In post war Italy, the King had a fear of a Communmist uprising, as the country was behest with serious Econonic, Political issues and Italy was on the brink of Anarchy. In 1921 Gramschi and Togliatti established the Italian Communist Party and the rapid Growth of support towards the communists led the great landowners and industialists to support Mussolini and his Fascist Party (which was formed in 1919, to fight liberalism).

On the 30th of October of the following year 1922, some 30,000 balckshirted members of Mussolini's Fascist movement marched from Naples to Rome to force the government to resign and make way for their leader as Dictator, who shortly arrived in Rome by a open top car provided by none the other but the King himself....The weak government, was helpless, esp when it become clear that the Facsist's would hold the balance of power and thus the government fell. The King welcomed the change with open arms and entrusted Mussolini with the government of Italy he even invited Mussolini to the Quirinal Palace and appeared on the Palace balcony with Mussolini, who brandished the Party symbol: the fascio, a sign of authority in Ancient Rome, from which the Party took its name !

Prince Philipp of Hesse-Cassel (himself a keen Nazi Supporter in Germany) and brother in law of Umberto, he had married his sister Mafalda in 1925, noted " I had the impression that the attitude of my father and brother in law, was very postitive with regards Mussolini, but after he had made a few tasteless indiscretions and attacks against them, relations deteriorated!".

Thanks to Mussolini, Italy had become embroiled in the Second World War as an ally of Nazi Germany a war which was proving diastrous to the country. It was not until July 1943 that the King managed to engineer the Duce's downfall and take steps to withdraw from the war !

Had the King then also abdicated in the favour of his son Crown Prince Umberto, the Monarchy might have been saved. Umberto was a charming and cultured man and been against Italy's participation in the war, his public dislike of Mussolini had made him popular with the people!. But this was not always the case. As a young man he had the reputation of being a playboy prince with a eye for pretty women (and some say men too),he was dubbed a donnaiolo by the people!. He would had made a perfect King, but his father had left it for too late in abdicating the throne, it was until 9 May 1946 (and that was at the request of the allied powers) that he did so.

The reign of King Umberto II lasted but a month. On the 2nd of June a plebiscate was held and 12,717,923 votes were cast in favour of a Republic, whilst the votes cast for the Monarchy was 10,719,284. On the 13th June, King Umberto and his family was forced into exile, though he never abdicated nor renounced his rights. On the 28th June a Provisonal President was elected and the constitution of the Republic was approved by the 22nd Dec 1947!
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
italy, king umberto ii, marie jose, queen marie jose, savoy, umberto ii


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
King Jose I 'The Reformer' and Queen Mariana Vitória Marengo The Royal Family of Portugal 5 04-25-2014 07:30 PM
Photos Of King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie earlier days... Julia King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie 241 03-09-2014 08:13 PM
King Leopold III of The Belgians (1901-1983) Marengo Belgian Royal History 34 12-20-2011 08:58 AM
Princess Marie-José, Queen of Italy (1906-2001) Marengo Belgian Royal History 19 09-08-2009 07:03 AM
Funeral Of King Leopold III Of The Belgians 1983 olivier290782 Belgian Royal History 25 12-22-2008 05:23 AM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events duchess of cambridge dutch royal history fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympic games ottoman poland pom prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince pieter-christiaan princess aimee princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marilene princess mary queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden visit wedding winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:40 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]