Duke Carlos Javier and the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma 1: August 2010- 2022


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rominet09 said:
I'd love to see a pic of the son to see if he looks like his father
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You will find pictures of the young man by clicking the links.

I was also curious about his looks. I think he still has a lot of a young boy's features and I can't see any similarities to his father.

I hope Miss Klynstra is doing well ;)
 
Katrianna said:
Sorry, the link doesn't work. Netty wrote that she was contacted by another Nobiliana member that she had seen Gitte many times since 2010 and is another Royal photographer. Another member confirmed she was, indeed alive and the news first reported was incorrect.
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Indeed, also newspaper "De Volkskrant" posted a rectification on the matter
https://www.volkskrant.nl/opinie/om...-toelichting-bij-een-pijnlijke-fout~a4557059/

(tried google translate on this link but get a cookie message everytime, if someone knows of a translation workaround?)
 
Kandilka said:
You will find pictures of the young man by clicking the links.

I was also curious about his looks. I think he still has a lot of a young boy's features and I can't see any similarities to his father.

I hope Miss Klynstra is doing well ;)
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Thank you !:flowers:
 
The Telegraaf knows what will NOT be next... their headline today says "Prince doesn't get a penny". Oddly enough they explain to their readers that he will not get a state allowance. As neither Pss Irene nor Prince Carlos get one I am not sure who thought that Hugo Klynstra would get one.

There can not be an appeal to the ruling of the Counsel of State, so the title is definite.

https://www.ad.nl/show/buitenechtel...h-voortaan-prins-en-hoogheid-noemen~aae9749a/

https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenlan...ik-sybren-prins-de-bourbon-de-parme~a4574471/

The newspapers speculate WHY the new prince want a title and name of a father that he does not know. They all conclude it must be a opportunistic choice: it is lucrative to have a title and that it gives access to certain people.
 
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It can also be a matter of principle. The guy can't help and is not to blame for what happened between his parents. He is the son of a De Bourbon de Parme, so he has the rights to the name and before this verdict he had the right to fight for the name, as he did. And now the battle is won - he can wear the name and use it.

I find it cynical to automatically assume that he must have less-than-noble motives for it. That can be possible, of course, but I prefer to look at the more positive side.
 
Skippy said:
It can also be a matter of principle. The guy can't help and is not to blame for what happened between his parents. He is the son of a De Bourbon de Parme, so he has the rights to the name and before this verdict he had the right to fight for the name, as he did. And now the battle is won - he can wear the name and use it.

I find it cynical to automatically assume that he must have less-than-noble motives for it. That can be possible, of course, but I prefer to look at the more positive side.
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A Surname does not necessarily imply a title.
 
Cory said:
A Surname does not necessarily imply a title.
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According to the Law of Nobility from 1994 the illegitimate children of nobles are entitled to claim the name and titles of their father. Thats what has been confirmed for Hugo today.
 
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Here are some photos of the delivery of the judgement in Den Haag today, February 28:


** ppe gallery **
 
The decision ignores the rules of the House of Bourbon-Parme.
 
Cory said:
A Surname does not necessarily imply a title.
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I said the rights to the name De Bourbon de Parme, I did not say the rights to the title of His Royal Highness Prince Hugo.

JR76 said:
According to the Law of Nobility from 1994 the illegitimate children of nobles are entitled to claim the name and titles of their father. Thats what has been confirmed for Hugo today.
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That's what I meant. Thank you.
 
Cory said:
The decision ignores the rules of the House of Bourbon-Parme.
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Hugo is confirmed as a member of the into the Dutch Nobility incorporated family of Bourbon-Parma and entitled to carry its title of Prince and Royal Highness but since the Dutch Law has no jurisdiction over the titles, succession to & name of the Duchy of Parma you are right in that he is not considered a member of that former ruling house. All a bit confusing but legal.
 
Cory, Prince Michel of Bourbon Parme had a natural daughter with Laure le Bourgois.
She is tittled Prince Amelie de Bourbon Parme and married Igor Bagdanoff.
 
Explanation by the Raad van State (est. 1531 - the highest advisor of the Government as well the supreme Court of Adminsitraton - The King is president of this High College of State):

The Nobility Act
In 1996 Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme was incorporated into the Nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. The title of Prince and the predicate Royal Highness and the surname De Bourbon de Parme were established to him and his male descendants. As a result, the Nobility Act is applicable to Hugo Klynstra and the title and the predicate proceeds automatically with the change of surname. The way in which the paternity of the child has been established does not matter for the Nobility Act, is confirmed by the Raad van State.

The Royal House De Bourbon de Parme
The change of surname does not mean that Hugo Klynstra is now also a member of the Royal House De Bourbon de Parme. That is a private matter of the House itself. The Nobility Act has no jurisdiction about that.

The Royal House of the Netherlands
Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme is no member of the Royal House of the Netherlands. The change of the surname of his extramarital son therefore has no effect concerning the Royal House of the Netherlands.

Background
Hugo Klynstra was born in 1997. He is an extramarital son of Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme. When he was born, he got the surname of his mother: Klynstra. When Hugo Klynstra came of age, he filed a request to the Minister of Justice for a change of the surname. The Minister agreed to this request in 2015.

Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme objected to this decision at the Court of Justice of The Hague. In November 2016 the Court ruled that the objections of Prince Carlos against the name change could not succeed. In today's ruling, the Raad van State confirms that judgment of the Court.

https://www.raadvanstate.nl/pers/pe...icht.html?id=1120&summary_only=&category_id=8
 
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Isn't the son born legitimately to Carlos Javier named Carlos also. This is going to be confusing to the public who aren't as informed as Royal and Noble watchers.
 
Cory said:
He won't be a member of the House of Bourbon Parma either.
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According to the director of the Foundation for Dutch Nobility (see Dutch newspaper article), he now officially is a member of the princely house 'de Bourbon de Parme' in the Netherlands. He even stated that Prince Hugo will become the 'head' of the Dutch branch upon his father's passing.

However, the family will not recognize him as head as they will most likely follow the current's head lead and recognize his younger son by princess Annemarie as the future house's head.

So, internationally prince Carlos (Enrique) will be the head of the Bourbon Parma family, in the Netherlands prince (Carlos) Hugo will be the head according to the Dutch nobility rules.
 
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Katrianna said:
Isn't the son born legitimately to Carlos Javier named Carlos also. This is going to be confusing to the public who aren't as informed as Royal and Noble watchers.
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The soon-to-be-Prince (it requires a Royal Decree signed by the Duke's cousin, The King) goes by the name Hugo.
 
Somebody said:
According to the director of the Foundation for Dutch Nobility (see Dutch newspaper article), he now officially is a member of the princely house 'de Bourbon de Parme' in the Netherlands. He even stated that Prince Hugo will become the 'head' of the Dutch branch upon his father's passing.

However, the family will not recognize him as head as they will most likely follow the current's head lead and recognize his younger son by princess Annemarie as the future house's head.

So, internationally prince Carlos (Enrique) will be the head of the Bourbon Parma family, in the Netherlands prince (Carlos) Hugo will be the head according to the Dutch nobility rules.
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In my opinion the Netherlands does not know "heads" of a noble House: all noblemen are equal.
In Belgium this is still visible in using the word The without firstname:

De Graaf van Limburg Stirum (eldest)
Graaf Eric van Limburg Stirum (brother)
Graaf Pierre van Limburg Stirum (brother)

In the Netherlands however these three brothers are styled the same:

Marcel graaf van Limburg Stirum
Eric graaf van Limburg Stirum
Pierre graaf van Limburg Stirum

In the Dutch nobility system Carlos and his sons are also not styled differently.
It is not visible who is the head:

Carlos prins de Bourbon de Parme (father)
Hugo prins de Bourbon de Parme (extramarital son)
Carlos prins de Bourbon de Parme (marital son)
 
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:previous:

Agreed, the styling usually is not very different. The titles 'Duke of Parma' and all the other Italian and Spanish titles are not recognised by law. But there are 'heads' of noble families in the Netherlands. They usually do not have a special distinction indeed, though in some families the chef has a higher title than the other members of his family. Example: the van Zuylen van Nijevelts of Duinrell amusement park. The head of the family is Count Hugo while his son & heir is Baron Philip (married to the grand mistress of the Court btw).

Despite there not being a clear destinction, it is clear that for example Frederik, Graaf van Lynden van Sandenburg is the head of his family, and Arent, Baron van Wassenaer is the head of Holland's oldest surviving & most prestigeous noble family. The main branch of the Limburg-Stirums has been living in Finland for some generations.

Note that in the interview with the Volkskrant, the director of the counsel of the nobility explicitely mentions that there will be two heads of the Bourbon-Parma's. It seems that for the Dutch counsel of nobility the new prince Hugo will be the eventual head of the Dutch noble family de Bourbon de Parma, while for the family itself prince Carlos Henrique will become the head of the Royal house of Parma. Note that as a side snipe he also -wrongly- mentions that the family is not entitled to call themselves royal.

Anyway, what a mess. Fortunately the new prince and his mother have never appeared in interviews or on television, let's hope that this will not change.
 
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Marengo said:
:previous:

Agreed, the styling usually is not very different. The titles 'Duke of Parma' and all the other Italian and Spanish titles are not recognised by law. But there are 'heads' of noble families in the Netherlands. They usually do not have a special distinction indeed, though in some families the chef has a higher title than the other members of his family. For examples; the van Zuylen van Nijevelts of Duinrell amusement park. The head of the family is Count Hugo while his son is Baron Philip (married to the grand mistress of the Court btw).

Despite there not being a clear destinction, it is clear that for example Frederik, Graaf van Lynden van Sandenburg is the head of his family, and Arent, Baron van Wassenaer is the head of Holland's oldest surviving & most prestigeous noble family. The main branch of the Limburg-Stirums has been living in Finland for some generations.

Note that in the interview with the Volkskrant, the director of the counsel of the nobility explicitely mentions that there will be two heads of the Bourbon-Parma's. It seems that for the Dutch counsel of nobility the eldest son will be the eventual head of the Dutch noble family de Bourbon de Parma, while for the family itself prince Carlos Henrique will become the head of the Royal house of Parma. Note that as a side snipe he also -wrongly- mentions that the family is not entitled to call themselves royal.
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The snipe is about "The Royal House of Bourbon-Parma" which indeed does not exist. There was never a King of Parma indeed. It is the Royal House of Bourbon (that is where they derive their HRH from) and the Ducal House of Parma.

Empress Zita is reported to have said that she is "Zita de Bourbon, Princess of Parma". That looks more correct to me.

Carlos de Bourbon, Hertog van Parma
Hugo de Bourbon, prins van Parma
Luisa de Bourbon, prinses van Parma
Cecilia de Bourbon, prinses van Parma
Carlos jr. de Bourbon, prins van Parma
Margarita de Bourbon, prinses van Parma
Jaime de Bourbon, prins van Parma
Zita de Bourbon, prinses van Parma
Gloria de Bourbon, prinses van Parma
Carolina de Bourbon, prinses van Parma
 
I wonder why the Bourbon Parme wanted to be member of the Dutch Nobility?.
Now you have in the Netherlands a second Branch of Bourbon Parme with the same name Carlos but not with the same privileges, what confusing !.
Do you think Prince Jaime could have been Ambassador of the Holy See if he was not Dutch ?
 
maria-olivia said:
I wonder why the Bourbon Parme wanted to be member of the Dutch Nobility?.
Now you have in the Netherlands a second Branch of Bourbon Parme with the same name Carlos but not with the same privileges, what confusing !.
Do you think Prince Jaime could have been Ambassador of the Holy See if he was not Dutch ?
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The Netherlands have a legally recognized (and protected) system of nobility. In France, in Italy and in Spain they were "nothing". In Spain the husband of Princess Irene was just "Don Carlos Hugo de Borbón-Parma y Borbón-Busset". No any title. No any prefix. Nothing.

Compare it with Prince Lorenz in Belgium. In Austria he is just "Lorenz Habsburg". Not even Von. In Belgium he is legally Aartshertog van Oostenrijk-Este / Archiduc d'Autriche-Este, protected by Belgian law.

The only requirement for Jaime to become an Ambassador is to have the Dutch citizenship. Being part of the nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands has nothing to do with this.

maria-olivia said:
[...]
Now you have in the Netherlands a second Branch of Bourbon Parme with the same name Carlos but not with the same privileges, what confusing !.
[...]
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There is only one family De Bourbon de Parme in the Nobility of the Netherlands. There are no two branches. In the Netherlands having nobility does not come woth any privilege. In that aspect there is no difference between Hugo and his halfbrother Carlos.

A branch within the same family is recognizeable by the name:

Van Lawick
Van Lawick van Pabst

Smits van Oyen
Smits van Eckart

De Wijkerslooth
De Wijkerslooth de Weerdesteyn

Von Quadt zu Wykradt und Isny
Von Quadt-Hüchtenbruck

Etc.
 
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.

Princess Tania of Bourbon-Parma attended the Gala d'Enfance Majuscule in Paris yesterday, March 26:


** Pic **
 
Absolutely no news , no pictures from Princess Irene youngest daughter Princeee Carolina.
 
:previous:

The Brenninkmeijer family is notorious for guarding their privacy. The princess and her family are also living in Hong Kong, which will prevent them from attending most family events in the Netherlands or Parma.
 
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