Duke Carlos Javier and the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma 1: August 2010- 2022

[Duc_et_Pair]

From judex.nl

The biological father is not in a legal relationship with the child when it was not born in a marriage of the biological father and the biological mother. To establish a legal relationship with the child, the father must recognize the child. (Art. 1: 199 sub c Civic Code).

It is important to remember, even within a marriage, that the father can be a biological father in two meanings: the father has naturally conceived a child or the father has donated for artificial insemination of a woman. This terminology is important for reading various articles of law, for example about the denial of paternity.

Recognition of a child is a legal act. By this act a man comes in a legal relationship with a child. Therefore it is possible that the father whom recognized a child -and has vested a legal relationship- is not the biological father of the child. A recognition is irrevocable. (Delphine Boël!).

When the biological or legal father has recognized a child, he has a right of access to the child. Both the child and the parent with whom the child does not reside, have the right to association. If the biological father does not recognize the child (Prince Carlos), he is not a parent in the meaning of law, he does not hold parentship rights and he has no right of access to the child, he has no right on information about the child.

Conclusion: the biological mother and father must consult with each other: should there be a relationship between the child and the biological father? If yes: how intensively should the relationship between the biological father and the child be or will be in the future? On that basis, the biological parents can decide whether it is wise that a biological father recognizes the child or not.

 

[TheRoyalCourtisane]

I meant crazy the manner in which this will be played out in court, at family function, legal documents.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Did the late Duke of Parma have a natural Child also .
(a Child with her Children 's Nannie in Spain )

Wel the Duke died and nothing is ever heard about that alleged extra-marital child, so we may call it just rumours unless the opposite has been proven.

 

[maria-olivia]

I agree , sorry about that !
I delete my Post , could you delete your answer ? Thanks

 

[Marengo]

Considering his own daughter Margaritha told about the 3rd brother with some details i would say it isnt just another rumour.

 

[Benjamin]

Indeed, the illegitimate son of the late Carlos Hugo is supposedly named Xavier.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I meant crazy the manner in which this will be played out in court, at family function, legal documents.

When the Prince argues: the mother and I have agreed that I would never be a legal parent in the meaning of law, that I would never hold parentship rights, that I would never have the right on an access to the child, that I would never have the right on information about the child, that I would never have a say in the upbringing and the education of the child, therefore I have reservations and objections against the wish of this young man, to whom I have no rights and no duties, to be known with my surname and possibly the title connected to my House. And when the son argues: I only want the surname precisely because he is my daddy-dearest, then only a Court can decide in this matter.

Hugo Klynstra has better cards I think but family law is full of tricks and loopholes. It will also depend very much on how the circumstances were at the time of the conception of the boy and what the Prince means with "an independent decision by Ms Klynstra" and what the exact legal agreements were after the birth of the baby.

I doubt Hugo would be interested in the surname of a man who played no any paternal role in his life except that his father, the Duke of Parma, connected to almost all royal houses in Europe. The Duke probably also holds a stake in the family holding (Lys Fund) and will not be a too pauvre gentleman. Never too bad to wriggle a finger or two in between. Anyway, the father apparently sees reasons for objection. We will see how this works out.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Considering his own daughter Margaritha told about the 3rd brother with some details i would say it isnt just another rumour.

Princess Margarita has claimed more but so far we hear very little about this Mr Xavier....

It was also claimed that Princess Margarita was sort of raped by her eldest brother (claimed by her estranged first spouse), that her father was bankrupt, that there was a halfbrother living in the USA. All this was spread during that dreadful Margarita-gate.

Now that Princess Margarita is divorced from Edwin de Roy van Zuydewijn and has settled with her new husband and re-connected with the De Bourbon de Parmes and the Orange-Nassaus, we hear nothing anymore about these claims she once made in an interview in HP/De Tijd...

 

[Marengo]

Some surprising news fromt hemagazine 'Royalty': Carlos Xavier did want to be in touch with his son from the start. It was the mother who didn't want him to.

Article in Dutch, here.

And on our blog in English: Duke of Parma Did Want To Be In Touch With His Son After All | The Royal Forums

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

That is a surprising turn of the story indeed. The Duke was forced with a pregnancy (?) but apparently recognized the child, paid for the upbringing and wanted contact with the child.

I can imagine that the mother saw herself as Duchess of Parma and Piacenza and became bitter when Carlos refused to do so and "as revenge" kept the son away from him.

Hugo, the son, can become a Prince de Bourbon de Parme indeed but only as a member of the Dutch aristocracy.

 

[GracieGiraffe]

Let's home Hugo can have a relationship with this father now; the two of them deserve it.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Re-reading this thread: how was the Duke attacked as a lousy father who did not acknowledge his child et al. When he spoke about "sorrowful times" it apparently was about the clash between mother and child about Hugo. There is no question of neglect, there is no question of not recognizing, it is all about the wish to be Prince de Bourbon de Parme which was (and apparently still is) a difficult question for the Duke as head of the house: the dynastic rules of the House vs the laws of the Netherlands.


Hugo Klynstra is already one of the legal benefactors of his father's estate. But there is a chance on a feud inside the family De Bourbon de Parme when Hugo not only gets the title but possibly also claims the headship of the House. Until recently the House had a strict marriage policy. That is probably why Prince Carlos' uncle and aunts (bar one) never married. And now this, I can imagine the chances on factions in the House. Plenty of examples around.

 

[Stefan]

Re-reading this thread: how was the Duke attacked as a lousy father who did not acknowledge his child et al. When he spoke about "sorrowful times" it apparently was about the clash between mother and child about Hugo. There is no question of neglect, there is no question of not recognizing, it is all about the wish to be Prince de Bourbon de Parme which was (and apparently still is) a difficult question for the Duke as head of the house: the dynastic rules of the House vs the laws of the Netherlands.

Probalby it would better if they would not have been incorporated into the dutch nobility. Then his son would have no claim to his Title.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Probalby it would better if the would not have better if he would not have been icorporated into the dutch nobility. Then his son would have no claim to his Title.

That is true but back then the extension of the workings of the Wet op de Adeldom (Nobility Act) to children born outside marriage was new too. And who could know on beforehand that Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme would father an extramarital child?

Now I understand that the Prince acknowledged from the start that Ms Klynstra gave birth to his son but "that there would be no legal family relationship" with the child. The Prince possibly already foresaw the dynastic problems coming. But in fact he and his brother already violated the dynastic traditions by the choice of their partners, so he can be a bit flexible in that.

 

[Stefan]

That is true but back then the extension of the workings of the Wet op de Adeldom (Nobility Act) to children born outside marriage was new too. And who could know on beforehand that Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme would father an extramarital child?

Now I understand that the Prince acknowledged from the start that Ms Klynstra gave birth to his son but "that there would be no legal family relationship" with the child. The Prince possibly already foresaw the dynastic problems coming. But in fact he and his brother already violated the dynastic traditions by the choice of their partners, so he can be a bit flexible in that.

But it is dsifferent to marry a non-royal or non-noble partner which in case of Cqrlos also happend with the approval oif his father then to have a out-of-wedlock born child to gett the full title and Style like children born in an approved marriage.
Is there nothing in the House Laws that a dynast has to be born in a marriage which was approved by the Head of the House? If that is that the case then Mr. Klynstra can never claim to becme a dynast even if he will become a Prince of Bourbon-Parma.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

But it is dsifferent to marry a non-royal or non-noble partner which in case of CArlos also happend with the approval oif his father then to have a out-of-wedlock born child to gett the full title and Style likre children born in an approved marrige.
Is there nothing in the House Laws that a dynast has to be born in a marriage which was approved by the Head of the House? If that is that the case then Mr. Klynstra can never claim to becme a dynast even if he will become a Prince of Bourbon-Parma.

That is the point. He will never be a dynast. But he will most likely become HRH Prince Hugo de Bourbon de Parme and that is a situation the Duke always wanted to prevent. Maybe the King can adapt the title. There is no creation of a new nobility, as Hugo is noble for Dutch law. But he can get another name.

Examples of name changes in Dutch nobility:

Jonkheer Alfred Adrian Maurits Joseph Filz had his name changed in Filz von Reiterdank;
Gerrit Jan baron van Heeckeren had his name changed into Van Heeckeren tot Overlaer;
Jonkvrouw Alexandra Liliane Aureola Jankovich had her name changed into Jankovic de Jeszenice;
Jonkheer Peter de Lange had his name changed in De Lange van Bergen;
Leopold graaf van Limburg-Stirum van Noordwijk had his name changed into Van Limburg-Stirum;
Jonkheer Carel Clemens Canisius Marie van Nispen van Sevenaer had his name changed into Van Nispen van Sevenaer gen. Ruijs de Beerenbrouck;
Jonkheer Roderick Ewout von dem Borne had his name changed into Van Dijck;
Andreas George Fraterman had his name changed into graaf Festetics de Tolna;
Jonkheer Tihamer Gyula István Ghyczy had his name changed into Von Ghyczy;
Jonkheer Oscar Albert Thomas Kennesey had his name changed into Kennesey de Kenese;
Etc.

Maybe a variation is possible As he already belongs to the nobility (there is no creation of new nobility), the King can also grant him a different surname and title (see graaf (gravin) Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg). For an example leaving aside "Parma" as he does not belong to that dynastic House.

 

[Marengo]

What the king should and -most likely will- do is to stay out of this matter IMHO. It is his cousin's thing to solve. Since not even Pieter van Vollenhoven or the Vollenhoven grandchildren got any noble titles, I doubt he will bestow one on the his cousin's son -whom he mostlikely never even met.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

What the king should and -most likely will- do is to stay out of this matter IMHO. It is his cousin's thing to solve. Since not even Pieter van Vollenhoven or the Vollenhoven grandchildren got any noble titles, I doubt he will bestow one on the his cousin's son -whom he mostlikely never even met.

He bestows nothing, the young man already is a noble by birth as a natural son to a Dutch nobleman. What the King can do, on the young man's request, is to create another surname or title, like the many examples in my previous post above. And as with every Royal Decree: it is contraseigned by a minister, taking it for his/her account. According to the annual report of the High Council of Nobility in 2014, 20 of this sort of dossiers have been handled in that year concerning requests for name and/or title changes or addition to the Netherlands Nobility on grounds of existing rights, etc. So it is not a rare situation.


For an example in 2014 a gentleman with the title Baron by right of first-born, wanted to see this title transferred to his eldest son during his lifetime, because his son was "in the blossom of his social career" and it was "undesirable" that he fared without a title... (Advice from the High Council of Nobility: the son can make a request to His Majesty The King, which he had not done yet in 2014).


There was also an appeal by an extramarital son (like Hugo Klynstra) who wanted to be incorporated into the Netherlands Nobility but he was born before the Wet op de Adeldom (Nobility Act) 1994 and his request was dismissed because the Act had no retro-active workings.


Already in 1974 a former Hungarian nobleman had requested to be incorporated into the Netherlands Nobility. There was a positive advice to do so. The gentleman however never did a formal request to Her Majesty The Queen. In 1994 the new Nobility Act was tougher on incorporations and elevations and the request (positive before 1994, negative after 1994) was rejected because of new legislation. The Hungarian nobleman appealed in Court. Etc. Etc. It is unexpectedly lively stuff, the Dutch nobility...

 

[Ilse]

Hugo will be a Prince de Bourbon de Parme!
Minister verklaart bezwaarschrift Carlos prins de Bourbon de Parme ongegrond: zoon Hugo wordt prins - Adel in Nederland

 

[Lee-Z]

Hugo will be a Prince de Bourbon de Parme!
Minister verklaart bezwaarschrift Carlos prins de Bourbon de Parme ongegrond: zoon Hugo wordt prins - Adel in Nederland

I didn't see that coming.... (not really sure why not, but somehow i didn't...)

I also have a feeling that we haven't heard the last of this story

 

[iceflower]

.

On April 1 the Duke of Parma as one of the Netherlands Circular Hotspot (NLCH)'s Initiators attended the opening of the Circle Economy expo in Hoofddorp:


** anp gallery ** circle-economy.com **

 

[EmmaNL]

Princess Annemarie gave birth to a baby son on the 24th of April, 8.58 AM local time, in the Hague. His names are Carlos Enrique Leonard and his birth weight was 3020 grams. He is the heir to the ducal titles of his father, who is Duke of both Parma and Piacenza.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Congratulations to both the Duke and Duchess of Parma and Piacenza, congratulations to the newborn Prince of Parma, who -I assume- will have the tittle Prince of Piacenza, the traditional title of the Heir.

 

[MAfan]

Congratulations! Finally the male heir!
Personally I find interesting that they continue using Spanish names - the influence of the carlist claims is still strong, apparently.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The names of Princess Irene's grandchildren are a mix of Dutch, Spanish, Italian and French. This is how they are registered in the Netherlands:

Z.K.H. Carlos Hugo Roderick Sybren prins de Bourbon de Parme
H.K.H. Luisa Irene Constance Anna Maria prinses de Bourbon de Parme
H.K.H. Cecilia Maria Johanna Beatrix prinses de Bourbon de Parme
Z.K.H. Carlos Enrique Leonard prins de Bourbon de Parme
Julia Carolina Catharina ten Cate
Paola Cecilia Laurentien ten Cate
H.K.H. Zita Clara prinses de Bourbon de Parme
Alaïa-Maria Irene Cecile Brenninkmeijer
Xavier Albert Alphons Brenninkmeijer

 

[Kandilka]

Congratulations to the B-P's

I actually expected Viktoria to be the first of the princesses to deliver.

 

[Countessmeout]

Congratulations to the family

I notice Jamie was asked when they announced their pregnancy, if they were hoping for a son as there were no grandsons for Carl Hugo (legitimate). With the birth of Xavier in December and now little Carlos, that is no longer the case.

With the new little cousin coming soon, the family definitely has had an exciting few months. Like in Sweden, three little cousins close in age (though closer than Nicolas and his two). Wonder if it will be a trio of boys here too.

 

[Kandilka]

Yes, they could found their own playgroup

 

[crm2317]

So now the Prince of Parma has two sons called Carlos!

Many happy returns to the family, welcoming a new baby is always a very exciting time.

 

[Marengo]

Considering one is living in The Hague, another one in Rome and another one in Geneva I am not sure how often the cousins will actually be able to play together. But wonderful news that the duke and duchess have another child indeed! I would not be surprised if they will ask the king to be a godfather.

I think the eldest son uses the name 'Hugo' in daily life.