Duke and Duchess of Calabria and Family 1: June 2003-May 2008

[Sean.~]

Sean:

To address your contention first, I used the term "noteable exception" in regards to the absence of Spanish royals at Maria Carolina's baptism, not "sole exception". "Noteable" means "worthy of notice", not "solitary".

You said that Europe's royals turned out in large numbers and that the notable exception was Spain. This gives the impression that you were referring to to reigning houses (which Spain is) & that Spain was the only noteable exception among them. The fact of the matter is that none of the reigning houses were represented (in any capacity), with the exception of two. Perhaps you should have worded it better and stated that they were perhaps not present because of the enmity between the two families.

I really didn't feel that it was necessary to list every single royal house, reigning and non-reigning, that was not represented at the event in my original post, but simply to note that it was "noteable" that the Spaniards did not attend. Considering the fact that this was not a state event, but a private celebration, and given the past enmity between the two families, I'd venture a guess that they weren't invited. As far as reigning monarchies sending representatives in an official capacity, we can review the differences between "private celebrations" and "state events" in more depth if you feel it necessary to do so.

Snort. Firstly, no one said anything about an official capacity. Secondly, I'm very familiar with the difference between State and private functions, thank you. Obviously it is you that needs the review. There can be no "state event" if there is no state to begin with.

Even if every reigning monarch, consort , and heir-apparent in Europe had attended, they all would have been there in an unofficial capacity as it was private function.

Yes, I'm well aware. The fact of the mater is that the reigning houses of Europe were not represented -- either officially (which is impossible in this case) or unofficially.

As for the rest, I've never seen quite so many hairs being split simultaneously in my life!

Well, what can I say, I'm pedantic and tend to generally know what I'm talking about.

(and no, I didn't claim they were royal - thanks again for putting words in my mouth).

Actually, you did. You prefaced the top half of your list of names with the following sentence: " Among the other royal guests, there were..." :P

However, I note with satisfaction that you did catch the names of those whose royal status is generally unquestioned (even if they don't satisfy your rather exacting moral standards, or come from non-reigning houses, or simply aren't appealing to you)

Well, don't get too "satisfied", because, their status *isn't* generally unquestioned. More specifically, they are all non-reigning and only carry titles of pretension. These titles have no legal currency per se and, thus, their (supposed) royal status can be questioned (and has been).

conveniently left off when you capped the royalty on the guest list at the "jet-setting" Grimaldis, Prince and Princess Laurent, and "a Bonaparte".

Read the above. I didn't convienently leave them off. I just don't consider all of them royalty. And the "a Bonaparte" was in reference to the husband of Beatrice de Bourbon, not the guests in attendence.

I hate to burst your bubble, but several scions of reigning royal houses have their share of moral and behavioral shortcomings as well. Their messes just get cleaned up more quietly.

Who's denying that? I don't kow-tow to any of them, so don't worry about bursting my bubble. I hold everyone to the same standard. [/quote] And I don't have exacting moral standards. I just draw the line at certain things, particularly when people are touting themselves as 'leaders'.

(And just in case you feel compelled to subtlely remand me for referring to the Grimaldis as "royalty", I already know the technicalities, thank you - it's just that there's no such word as "princelty").

The correct way to refer to them is as princely. The Princely Grimaldi's or the Grimaldi's of Monaco.

salute your vast and varied knowledge, even if I don't necessarily agree with your interpretations or share your conclusions. We could go around and around on this issue and it would get us nowhere, as the two factions of the House of the Two Sicilies themselves have been unable to put it to rest and end it amicably for 43 years.

Likewise. And actually, I'm not even remotely interested in them, although I know quite a bit about the imbroglio. I was just pointing out that, going by the rule of law, your conclusions are not correct.

By the way, the senior Bourbon is Luis Alfonso, not Juan Carlos. Speaking in terms of strict primogeniture, that is, although you may qualify things in terms of reigning and non-reigning, or apply particular moral filters in your assessments.

AFAIC, he isn't the senior Bourbon because his grandfather renounced his rights and his French claim is questionable to say the least. And I do tend to qualify things in the sense of reigning and non-reigning or the last reigning (as the case may be). They tend to have more legitimacy.


I'm off to the gym. Have a nice day.

Sean

[Sean.~]

Originally posted by Perillos@Dec 5th, 2003 - 3:53 pm
Sean:

Just to clarify, I can see why you thought I had described all the non-royals on that guests list as royals - I did a cut-and-paste from the Duke of Castro's website, so those were not actually my words lumping all the non-royals in with the royals. I acknowledge the fact that it looked that way, and that you weren't actually putting words in my mouth.

Don't worry about it. It's all in good debate. I didn't see this post before posting my previous message. In any event, for a change it's nice to debate/discuss with someone that knows what they're talking about (and/or presents good, thought out arguments. Even if we disagree.

Have a fabulous evening.
:flower:
S

[Dennism]

Photos from IBL of the Duke and Duchess of Calabria and their two daughters:

[elenaris]

Originally Posted by Sean.~

Don't worry about it. It's all in good debate. I didn't see this post before posting my previous message. In any event, for a change it's nice to debate/discuss with someone that knows what they're talking about (and/or presents good, thought out arguments. Even if we disagree.

Have a fabulous evening.
:flower:
S

It is a really a very interesting debate about Primogeniture/ Reigning...
Thank you for such interesting information...

[Amira]

Prince Carlo and Princess Camilla of Borbone attend the Heart Of Children Benefit Gala at the Protomoteca Terrace at the Capitole on June 8, 2005 in Rome, Italy.

[GrandDuchess]

You can find pictures of the baptism of the Duke and Duchess of Calabria's second daughter, Maria Chiara, here (only small ones though, as Rex don't allow making them bigger).

[kelly9480]

You'll probably need to delinieate exactly who you consider to be the head of the house - the Italian, or the Spaniard. Most houses (AIUI, all except Spain) recognise the Italian, but it could lead to conflicts.

[pdas1201]

Duke and Duchess of Calabria's second daughter, Maria Chiara, was baptized at Stella Maris De Porto Cervo Church in Sardinia, Italy on August 2, 2005. Princess Michael was one of the godparents. Prince Henrik of Denmark was also present.

Part 1
www.rexfeatures.com

[pdas1201]

Part 2
www.rexfeatures.com

[Mandy]

Thanks pdas! What a beautiful baby!

[tiaraprin]

Princess Michael is a godmother to the new baby?? She is close to the Italian Royals??

[Marengo]

Did the King of Spain invite this Duke and Duchess of Calabria to his sons wedding? I assume that he supports the claim of the other duke of Calabria, Infante Carlos (and his lovely wife Anne of France).

[Danielle]

Originally Posted by pdas1201

Duke and Duchess of Calabria's second daughter, Maria Chiara, was baptized at Stella Maris De Porto Cervo Church in Sardinia, Italy on August 2, 2005. Princess Michael was one of the godparents. Prince Henrik of Denmark was also present.

Part 1
www.rexfeatures.com

Thank you for posting the photos. Aww, their daughters are so beautiful. I think this photo is very sweet: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...hmentid=178265 I'm sorry, but I don't really know much about this family. Who is the other child being baptised as well?

[carlota]

i didn't know princess michael of kent was so close to the duke and his wife camilla either... :s

[LaMinka]

Princess Maria Chiara is a beautiful baby!

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Danielle

I'm sorry, but I don't really know much about this family.

The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies was ruled by a branch of the Spanish Bourbons until it was forcibly annexed into the new Kingdom of Italy in 1860.

The Royal House of the Two Sicilies has a disputed succession. Since 1960 the Headship of the Royal House has been claimed by Prince Don Carlos, Duke of Calabria, and by Prince Don Ferdinando, Duke of Castro.

Don Carlos is married to Princess Anne of France and was granted the title of Infant of Spain by King Juan Carlos in 1994. Needless to say, the Spanish Royal House recognises Don Carlos as the rightful Head.

Don Carlos and Anne have one son and four daughters: Prince Pedro, whose first child was born in 1993 (scandal!), married the mother, Sofia Landaluce y Melgareja, in 2001, and has two more children. This marriage is not considered dynastic. The daughters are Cristina, married to Pedro Lopez-Quesada; Maria Paloma, married to Archduke Simeon of Austria; Ines, married to an Italian aristocrat; and Victoria, married to Marco Nomikos of the Greek shipping family.

The rival, Don Ferdinando, married Chantal, a French aristocrat (who died a few weeks ago). There are three children: Charles (Carlo) (styled Duke of Calabria as well, to add to the confusion), who married Camilla Crociani (the subject of this thread) in 1998; best man at the wedding in Monaco was Prince Albert; Beatrice, who married (and divorced) Charles, Prince Napoleon, and Anne, who married an aristocrat.

The bitter dispute over the Headship of the House may well resolve itself if Prince Pedro's sons are disqualified from the succession, and if Prince Charles has the longed-for son.
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