Duke and Duchess of Calabria and Family 1: June 2003-May 2008

[Sean.~]

But since two people claim the title, I called it a contraversy.

I get your point.

But the house law is clear, and that is why I said there isn't a controversy per se. By the way, I'm not sure if you know or not, but it isn't Charles de Bourbon who is claiming headship of the house of the Two Sicilies (at least not yet), it's his father, Ferdinand de Bourbon, aka Duke of Castro (just some extra infor). As for the late Comte de Paris, well, he did a lot of things to antagonize his family.

Cheers,

S. ~

 

[Perillos]

I think it's perfectly understandable to call the dispute a full-fledged controversy; two branches of the family are claiming to be the senior line of the Royal House of the Two Sicilies. That's controversial!

The origins of the dispute go back to the year 1900, when Prince Charles of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, second son son the Head of the House, Prince Alfonso, Count of Caserta, signed the Act of Cannes, in which he renounced, for himself and his descendants, his position in the Two Sicilies succession. He did this in order to marry the Infanta Maria Mercedes of Spain, sister of King Alfonso XIII and, at that time, the heiress-apparent to the Spanish throne. Upon renouncing his rank and titles in the Two Sicilies succession, he was made a member of the Spanish Royal House with the title of Infante and the qualification of Royal Highness, and a Spanish subject. His own father the Count of Caserta would not allow him to keep his rank as a Sicilian prince under these terms. For the newly created Infante Don Carlos of Spain, it presented few problems as his older brother Ferdinando Pio, Duke of Calabria was expected to inherit the claim and it was assumed he would have children; if not, there were younger brothers in the family to carry on the Two Sicilies succession.

As fortune would have it, Ferdinando Pio died without issue in 1960. For several years, as it was obvious that the childless Duke of Calabria would have no sons, he regarded his younger brother Prince Rainieri, Duke of Castro, as his successor. However, his nephew Infante Don Alfonso of Spain, son of the late Don Carlos, dismissed his father's renunciation, stating that it had been conditional, and only in effect in the case that his mother, Infanta Maria Mercedes, had succeeded to the throne of Spain (which she obviously did not). Althought he verbage of the Act of Cannes had set forth no such condition, Don Juan, Count of Barcelona and Head of the Royal House of Spain supported Don Alfonso's contentions, as did Spain's dictator, Gen. Francisco Franco, although it is notable that in giving this recognition neither Don Alfonso nor his son the Infante Don Carlos, the current pretender to the title Duke of Calabria, were obliged to give up their status and rank in the Spanish Royal House nor their citizenship as a result. So while they dismissed the Act of Cannes as a dead issue, they continue to enjoy the rights and privileges it bestowed on them. Don Alfonso died in 1964, and his son Don Carlos has styled himself "Duke of Calabria" and Head of the House since then. True, he married a daughter of the late Comte de Paris, yet her father did not recognize his claims to the headship of the Royal House.

However, most of the knights of the various Bourbon-Two Sicilies chivalric orders, most notably the Constantinian Order of St. George, honored the legality of the Act of Cannes and recognized Prince Rainieri, Duke of Castro, as the legitimate successor to the late Duke of Calabria as Head of the Royal House and Grand Master of the chivalric orders in 1960. He died in 1973, and was succeeded by his son Prince Ferdinando, Duke of Castro; it is his son, Prince Carlo, also styled Duke of Calabria, who is the father of the little Princess Maria Carolina who was recently baptised at the Palace of Caserta. Europe's royals turned out in large numbers for the event, with the notable exception of Spain's royal family.

 

[Sean.~]

Originally posted by Perillos@Dec 3rd, 2003 - 2:34 pm

However, most of the knights of the various Bourbon-Two Sicilies chivalric orders, most notably the Constantinian Order of St. George, honored the legality of the Act of Cannes and recognized Prince Rainieri, Duke of Castro, as the legitimate successor to the late Duke of Calabria as Head of the Royal House and Grand Master of the chivalric orders in 1960

Ah, yes, the Castro branch of the Two-Sicilies family is known for hawking worthless orders.


Now, on to the more substantive points of your post:

The origins of the dispute go back to the year 1900, when Prince Charles of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, second son son the Head of the House, Prince Alfonso, Count of Caserta, signed the Act of Cannes, in which he renounced, for himself and his descendants, his position in the Two Sicilies succession. He did this in order to marry the Infanta Maria Mercedes of Spain, sister of King Alfonso XIII and, at that time, the heiress-apparent to the Spanish throne. Upon renouncing his rank and titles in the Two Sicilies succession, he was made a member of the Spanish Royal House with the title of Infante and the qualification of Royal Highness, and a Spanish subject. His own father the Count of Caserta would not allow him to keep his rank as a Sicilian prince under these terms. For the newly created Infante Don Carlos of Spain, it presented few problems as his older brother Ferdinando Pio, Duke of Calabria was expected to inherit the claim and it was assumed he would have children; if not, there were younger brothers in the family to carry on the Two Sicilies succession.

There were family and political dynamics led to the Act of Cannes and they can not be ignored. The Count of Caserta had been chief of staff to the Duke of Madrid, who was the Carlist pretender to the Spanish throne. Spain's liberal government was hostile to the marriage, as the Carlists were known conservatives and the government was afraid that Carlos aka Charles would politically influence his wife in the event she became Queen regent. Thus it was the deemed prudent that the Princess of Austurias distance herself from her future-father-in-law. The government advised the *minor* King Alfanso to refuse the Two Sicilies Order of San Januarius. The Count of Caserta was furious at the Spanish Royal Court and at the possibililty that his son son could be forced to renounce his Two-Sicilies Claim. Thus he pre-emptively had the Act of Cannes drawn up (allegedly poorly worded). Signed in 1900, it included an undertaking to renounce "eventual" rights to the Two Sicilies Crown..."In execution of the pragmatic decree of 1759"


However:

a). The Pragmatic Decree of 1759 did not require a renunciation under these circumstances. It was designed to avert a unification of the Spanish and Two Sicilies Crowns , as Spain wasn't allowed domains in Italy after the Succession Wars. So only when and if the Princess of Austarias became Queen would any renunciation have been necessary -- if the Two-Sicilies monarchy had been intact. Remember, the Bourbon-Two-Sicilies family ceased to have any Italian domains after the 1860s. Thus there was no possibility of the Crowns being united.

B). Only the circumstances envisaged in the Pragmatic Decree allowed for renunciation. If the circumstances didn't exist then the renuncation wasn't valid. According to the house law all 'legitimate' issue of recgonized marriages were eligable for succession.

c). Two-Sicilies civil law prohibited renuncations of *future* inheritances. So did French Law (and the the Act was signed in France). Italian law (where the signatories were citizens) also did not recognize renuncations of future inheritances.

  Europe's royals turned out in large numbers for the event, with the notable exception of Spain's royal family

Er, no. Who turned up? The Grimaldis and Claire and Laurent (who used to jet set with Carlo and Camilla in Monte Carlo). Sweden, Denmark, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, Norway, Britain, Austria, Bavaria, etc. etc. etc. were not represented. The Castro branch are *not* taken seriously by the reigning (and most formerly reigning) houses of Europe. They would not want to offend the King of Spain. The best they could do for their elder daughter was a Bonaparte. And look who the son married -- the daughter of a *convicted* criminal who fled to South America and a b rated movie actress and sometime dancer. The manners of the 'Duchess' have also been commented on by the 'knights' of the orders her husband represents.

 

[Perillos]

My goodness, Sean - you're quite partisan about this, aren't you?

The "worthless orders" offered by the "Castro branch" might be of no value in the eyes of the Infante Don Carlos of Spain and his supporters, but it is rather telling that, in 1960, most of the members of these Orders (which I suppose would not be written off as "worthless" at that time) recognized the Duke of Castro's father Prince Rainieri as the successor to the deceased Ferdinando Pio, Duke of Calabria, and not Don Carlos' father, the Infante Don Alfonso of Spain.

Regarding the substantive bits - I'm familiar with the technical points refuting the legality of the Act of Cannes made by adherents of the Infante Don Alfonso of Spain and his son Don Carlos; however these are technicalities which in no way erode the original intent of the Act; they carry about as much weight as saying that Prince Carlo had his fingers crossed behind his back when he signed it. Whatever necessities, proscriptions, or circumstances existed prior to its signing, or legal loopholes emerged after the fact, these do not alter the original intended purpose - by signing, Prince Carlo signed away his "eventual" rights to the Two Sicilies succession in order to become an Infante of Spain and a Spanish subject. Had he remained "Prince Carlo of the Two Sicilies" and had his wife become "Princess Carlo of the Two Sicilies", then all would have been covered easily by the Pragmatic Sanction of 1759 in the event that Mercedes succeeded to the Spanish throne - and as she did not, their son Don Alfonso would have smoothly succeeded his uncle Ferdinando Pio as Head of the House of Two Sicilies without further ado in 1960. However, back in 1900, the parties concerned took it a step beyond what was covered in the Pragmatic Sanction of 1759 - instead of Mercedes joining her new husband's house, he joined hers - he became an Infante of Spain and a subject of King Alfonso XIII upon his marriage, and not "in the eventuality" of his wife's succession. Prince Carlo understood the implications and never tried to rescind his actions. Conversely, when the full weight of implication became apparent to his son and grandson in 1960, never did they once consider that in order to become Head of the Royal House of the Two Sicilies it would be adviseable, prudent, and wholly necessary to renounce their Spanish titles and ranks. That's why the Knights of the Two Sicilies chivalric orders refused to recognize them - their "king" could not be the subject of another "king", even of the non-reigning variety. All the legal technicalities and loopholes proffered by the Infantes of Spain and their adherents were designed as an exercise in "having their cake and eating it too". It had to be one or the other - not even the Pragmatic Sanction of 1759 would allow for both.

Now, as far as the guest list for the baptism of Maria Carolina goes, "the best they could do...was a Bonaparte" is just a bit misleading, wouldn't you say? Having Prince Laurent of Belgium as a godfather is nothing to sneeze at, and in my humble opinion, a LOT better than a Bonaparte. But just for added flavor, the Duke and Duchess of Bragança attended, as did Prince Emanuele Filiberto of Savoy, with some of his Karageorgevich cousins in tow as I recall, and several Orléans family members - you might want to consult the past issue of "Point de Vue" that carried the full-color spread of the event. It seems that today's royals are not so fiercely partisan over these issues as their "fans" like us are that they can't come together for a joyous occasion and a splendid event.

 

[Perillos]

Sean:

Here a list of the guests at Princess Maria Carolina's christening - I forgot all about Prince Kardam of Bulgaria, The Duke of Aosta, the Princes Alexander of Liechtenstein, and the Countess Secco d'Aragona (née Archduchess Katherina of Austria)...

The event was attended by the following members of the Royal House of Bourbon Two Sicilies: H.R.H. the Duchess of Castro; Donna Edoarda Crociani and her daughter Cristiana; H.R.H. Princess Beatrice and her children; T.I.H. Prince Jean Christophe and Princess Caroline Napoleon; H.R.H. Princess Anna and her children, Nicolas and Dorothèe Cochin; T.R.H. Prince Louis Alphonse and Princess Cristina; H.R.H. Prince Alexander.
Among the other royal guests, there were: T.R.H. Prince Laurent and Princess Claire of Belgium; T.R.H. the Duke and Duchess of Bracanca; H.R.H. Prince Kardam of Bulgaria; H.R.H. Prince Emanuele Filiberto of Savoia; H.R.H. the Duke of Aosta; H.R.H. Prince Michael of Yugoslavia; T.R.H. Prince and Princess Alexander of Liechtenstein; H.R.H. Prince Charles Philip of Orleans; H.R.H. Faical Bey of Tunisia; H.S.H. Prince Raimondo Orsini d’Aragona and H.S.H. Princess Kethevan Orsini d’Aragona; Count Massimiliano Secco d’Aragona and H.R.I.H the Countess; T.R.H. Prince Manfred and Princess Victoria Windish Graetz; H.S.H. Prince Paolo Boncompagni Ludovisi; H.S.H. Prince Alessandro Jacopo Ludovisi Boncompagni Altemps; H.S.H. Prince Charles-Henri of Lobkowicz; Prince Charles Giovannelli; Princess Barbara Massimo; Prince Scipione Borghese; Don Muzio and Donna Elisabetta Sforza Cesarini; Prince and Princess Fabrizio Colonna; Prince Oddone Colonna; Prince and Princess Carlo Odescalchi; Countess Celia von Bismarck; Countess Eléonore de la Rochefoucault; Count and Countess Michel de Liedekerke; Count and Countess Hadelin de Liedekerke-Beaufort; Prince Carlo Massimo; Count and Countess Carlo Marullo di Condojanni, Princes of Casalnuovo; Marquis and Marquise Aldo Pezzana Capranica del Grillo; Marquis Sersale; Count and Countess Alberto Sifola di San Martino; Marquise de Goyzueta of Toverena; Marquis and Marquise Fabrizio di Giura; Marquis and Marquise Giacomo del Gallo.
Among the members of the aristocratic families of southern Italy, there were: Princess Acton of Leporano; Prince Augusto and Princess Tana Ruffo of Calabria; Prince and Princess Landolfo Ambrogio Caracciolo of Melissano; Prince and Princess Alessandro d’Aquino of Caramanico; Prince Ferdinando Ferrara Pignatelli of Strongoli and his daughter Ginevra; Countess Lidia d’Aquino of Caramanico; the Marquis and the Marquise Pierluigi Sanfelice; the Marquis and the Marquise Riccardo Imperiali; Countess Maria Lucia Imperiali; Count and Countess Riccardo Paternò of Montecupo, Dukes of San Nicola; Marquis and Marquise Piero Piromallo Capece Piscitelli of Montebello; Baron and Baroness Francesco Sanseverino of Marcellinara; Baron and Baroness Giampietro Sanseverino of Marcellinara; Marquis and Marquise Leopoldo de Gregorio Cattaneo di Sant’Elia; Princess Uzza de Gregorio Cattaneo di Sant’Elia; Duke and Duchess Giovan Battista Valiante d’Avena; Don Michele e Donna Micaela Valiante d’Avena.
Among the members of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, there were: H.E. Count Jacques de Liedekerke – representing the Grand Master – and the Countess; the Grand Prior of Rome, H.E. the Venerable Balì Franz von Lobstein; the Grand Prior of Naples and Naples, Frà Antonio Nesci; H.E. Ambassador Quaroni; Frà Carlo of the Marquises Arditi di Castelvetere.
Among the political and military personalities, there were: the Mayor of Caserta, Mr. Luigi Falco and his wife; H.E. the Prefect of Caserta, Mr. Renato Schilardi and his wife; H.E. the Prefect of Naples, Mr. Renato Profili and his wife; H.E. the Prefect of Naples, Mr. Achille Serra and his wife; the Superintendent of the Royal Palace of Caserta, Mrs. Giovanna Petrenga; the President of the Calabria Region, the Honourable Giuseppe Chiaravalloti and his wife; H.E. the Ambassador of Italy in the Holy See, Count Raniero Avogadro di Casalvonole and the Countess; H.E. the Ambassador of France Pierre Morel and his wife; H.E. the Ambassador of Argentina in Paris, Mr. Archibald Lannus; H.E. the Ambassador of Panama in London, Mrs. Ariadne Singares Robinson; the Culture Councillor of Naples, the Honourable Giulia Parente; H.E. General Paolo Di Noia and his wife; H.E. General Palazzo and his wife; General Salvatore D’Amato and his wife; General Li Pira and his wife; Admiral Paolo Pagnottella and his wife.
Among the entrepreneurs there were; Mr. and Mrs. Ferragamo, Mr. Brachetti Peretti, Mrs. Carla Fendi, Mr. and Mrs. Giugiaro, Mr. and Mrs. Oetker, Countess Agusta, Mrs. Arnault, Mr. and Mrs. Caltagirone, Mr. and Mrs. Gussalli Beretta, Mr. Hirshmann, Mr. and Mrs. Mentasti, Mr. and Mrs. Pastor.

 

[moosey60]

...My stars! Calm down people...it doesn't matter if Maria Carolina has Laurent as a godfather...geez, it seems like you're just argueing over who knows more about what...let's just say that you both know scads of information (useful...?)....and leave it at that. :flower:

 

[Sean.~]

My goodness, Sean - you're quite partisan about this, aren't you? 

Er, no ot really. The Calabria's (both of them) don't really interest me. I'm just repeating historical facts. Actually, you're the one who comes across as a Castro sycophant!

Regarding the substantive bits - I'm familiar with the technical points refuting the legality of the Act of Cannes made by adherents of the Infante Don Alfonso of Spain and his son Don Carlos; however these are technicalities which in no way erode the original intent of the Act; they carry about as much weight as saying that Prince Carlo had his fingers crossed behind his back when he signed it.  Whatever necessities, proscriptions, or circumstances existed prior to its signing, or legal loopholes emerged after the fact, these do not alter the original intended purpose - by signing, Prince Carlo signed away his "eventual" rights to the Two Sicilies succession in order to become an Infante of Spain and a Spanish subject.

It doesn't matter what the intent was. If it was signed under duress and *not* legally valid do to the the laws of the the time and place, then the decree is invalid. It's that simple. Intent (or whisful thinking, for that matter) does not make an illlegal document legal. The loopholes did not emerge "after the fact". These were the laws of the time and thus in effect at the time of signing.

Prince Carlo of the Two Sicilies" and had his wife become "Princess Carlo of the Two Sicilies", then all would have been covered easily by the Pragmatic Sanction of 1759 in the event that Mercedes succeeded to the Spanish throne - and as she did not, their son Don Alfonso would have smoothly succeeded his uncle Ferdinando Pio as Head of the House of Two Sicilies without further ado in 1960.  However, back in 1900, the parties concerned took it a step beyond what was covered in the Pragmatic Sanction of 1759 - instead of Mercedes joining her new husband's house, he joined hers - he became an Infante of Spain and a subject of King Alfonso XIII upon his marriage, and not "in the eventuality" of his wife's succession. 

Carlo becoming an Infante of Spain doesn't mean anything. In 1868 Prince Gaetano of the Two Sicilies married the (then) Spanish heiress presumptive Infanta Isabela. He too was created Infant of Spain. A decree was drawn up stating that he he would lose his Two Sicilies rights in the event the Infanta became Queen Spain. However, it was never signed because she never did become Queen. So, if you look at precedent (which was in keeping with the Pragmatic Law of 1759), the signed decree was not necessary in addition to be ing illegal. Also, by marrying into another royal house one does not necessarily lose their memebership in their own house, particularly if that house is no longer reigning.

I get PdV weekly, thank you. You specifically wrote that *only* the Spanish royal house was absent. This is a falsehood and I exposed it as such. And by Bonaparte for their daughter I was referring to Princess Beatrice of the Two Sicilies. As far as Laurent being nothing to sneeze at, well, he's a friend of the father's (the two used to jet set together) and 10th in line to the Belgian throne. He's never been the most popular member of the Belgian RF (but that's another story) and his substantive accomplishments are few when compared to those of his siblings. Perhaps married life will change him. In any event, a princely title does not necessarily make one 'nothing to sneeze at'.

Now, as far as the guest list for the baptism of Maria Carolina goes, "the best they could do...was a Bonaparte" is just a bit misleading, wouldn't you say?  Having Prince Laurent of Belgium as a godfather is nothing to sneeze at, and in my humble opinion, a LOT better than a Bonaparte.  But just for added flavor, the Duke and Duchess of Bragança attended, as did Prince Emanuele Filiberto of Savoy, with some of his Karageorgevich cousins in tow as I recall, and several Orléans family members - you might want to consult the past issue of "Point de Vue" that carried the full-color spread of the event.  It seems that today's royals are not so fiercely partisan over these issues as their "fans" like us are that they can't come together for a joyous occasion and a splendid event.

As for the other other families you mention, many would not consider them as royalty because they do *not* belong to reigning houses. Again, you specifically said that *only* the Spanish royal house was absent. Not true. Some of the the Karageorgevichs are, in my opinion, rather taky and dubious people, as are some of the Orleans and Emanuelle Filberto, IMO (making money of his 'title' bydoing commercials, shacking-up with every other girlfriend, not practicing saf sex, getting a girl who has posed topless pregnant and then having to marry her , etc., etc.). In short, with the Bragances being the exeption, tThese aren't really the creme de la creme of European royalty and society. But to each their own. It just proves my point that most of the reigning houses will have nothing to do with the Castro's. The King of Spain is the senior Bourbon and, in his view, the Infant Don Carlos is the head of the Two Sicilies house. This seems to be good enough for the reigning houses of Europe. And I'm not partisan on the issue. I just know a lot about most of the reigning and non-reigning houses (both European and non) and can discern between a legal and an illegal document. Many would consider those attending as not being royal

I will write about the chivalric orders when I have more time this afternoon or tonight.

Regards,

S.

 

[Sean.~]

Originally posted by Perillos@Dec 4th, 2003 - 8:12 pm
Sean:

Here a list of the guests at Princess Maria Carolina's christening - I forgot all about Prince Kardam of Bulgaria, The Duke of Aosta, the Princes Alexander of Liechtenstein, and the Countess Secco d'Aragona (née Archduchess Katherina of Austria)...

The event was attended by the following members of the Royal House of Bourbon Two Sicilies: H.R.H. the Duchess of Castro; Donna Edoarda Crociani and her daughter Cristiana; H.R.H. Princess Beatrice and her children; T.I.H. Prince Jean Christophe and Princess Caroline Napoleon; H.R.H. Princess Anna and her children, Nicolas and Dorothèe Cochin; T.R.H. Prince Louis Alphonse and Princess Cristina; H.R.H. Prince Alexander.

The Corciani's are not members of the Two Sicilies House, thank you. Also, half the individuals you list are not royals, which you claim they are. Former Italian counts, marquises, barons (they're all a dime a dozen in Italy), do not qualify as royalty.

As far as the Bonaparte's and the the likes of Feycal of Tunisia...well, the latter are not really regarded as royalty and they where in attendence because they are closely related to the family. The latter and his sister jet set with Carlo and Camilla. They are not members of reigning houses. You specifically said only the house of Spain was the noteable exception. With respect to Archduchess Catharina, she is married to an Italian Count (although the title is one of pretension) and she was not there as an official representative of the Austrian House. In any event, wit the exception of the Lichtenstien's and Laurent and Claire (whom I already acknowledged) they are not members of reigning houses.

No doubt the event was well attended, but you specifically said only the house of Spain was the noteable exception. This was incorrect and that was my contention. No matter how many other names you list will change that. That was my point. Moreover, one can attend an event one is invited to without supporting the claims of the host (e.g Kubrat and et al also attend events on the Infant Don Carlos' side). As you say, they were participating in a joyous ocassion.

 

[Perillos]

Sean:

To address your contention first, I used the term "noteable exception" in regards to the absence of Spanish royals at Maria Carolina's baptism, not "sole exception". "Noteable" means "worthy of notice", not "solitary". I really didn't feel that it was necessary to list every single royal house, reigning and non-reigning, that was not represented at the event in my original post, but simply to note that it was "noteable" that the Spaniards did not attend. Considering the fact that this was not a state event, but a private celebration, and given the past enmity between the two families, I'd venture a guess that they weren't invited. As far as reigning monarchies sending representatives in an official capacity, we can review the differences between "private celebrations" and "state events" in more depth if you feel it necessary to do so. Even if every reigning monarch, consort , and heir-apparent in Europe had attended, they all would have been there in an unofficial capacity as it was private function.

As for the rest, I've never seen quite so many hairs being split simultaneously in my life! Yes, I realize that the majority of names listed were non-royal aristocrats and "nobiltà vecchia" (and no, I didn't claim they were royal - thanks again for putting words in my mouth). However, I note with satisfaction that you did catch the names of those whose royal status is generally unquestioned (even if they don't satisfy your rather exacting moral standards, or come from non-reigning houses, or simply aren't appealing to you) who you conveniently left off when you capped the royalty on the guest list at the "jet-setting" Grimaldis, Prince and Princess Laurent, and "a Bonaparte". I hate to burst your bubble, but several scions of reigning royal houses have their share of moral and behavioral shortcomings as well. Their messes just get cleaned up more quietly.

(And just in case you feel compelled to subtlely remand me for referring to the Grimaldis as "royalty", I already know the technicalities, thank you - it's just that there's no such word as "princelty").

I salute your vast and varied knowledge, even if I don't necessarily agree with your interpretations or share your conclusions. We could go around and around on this issue and it would get us nowhere, as the two factions of the House of the Two Sicilies themselves have been unable to put it to rest and end it amicably for 43 years. I have no vested interest in either branch of the Two Sicilies house beyond a somewhat academic interest in the dispute and an independently formed opinion - just as you do.

By the way, the senior Bourbon is Luis Alfonso, not Juan Carlos. Speaking in terms of strict primogeniture, that is, although you may qualify things in terms of reigning and non-reigning, or apply particular moral filters in your assessments.

 

[Perillos]

Sean:

Just to clarify, I can see why you thought I had described all the non-royals on that guests list as royals - I did a cut-and-paste from the Duke of Castro's website, so those were not actually my words lumping all the non-royals in with the royals. I acknowledge the fact that it looked that way, and that you weren't actually putting words in my mouth.

 

[Sean.~]

Sean:

To address your contention first, I used the term "noteable exception" in regards to the absence of Spanish royals at Maria Carolina's baptism, not "sole exception". "Noteable" means "worthy of notice", not "solitary".

You said that Europe's royals turned out in large numbers and that the notable exception was Spain. This gives the impression that you were referring to to reigning houses (which Spain is) & that Spain was the only noteable exception among them. The fact of the matter is that none of the reigning houses were represented (in any capacity), with the exception of two. Perhaps you should have worded it better and stated that they were perhaps not present because of the enmity between the two families.

I really didn't feel that it was necessary to list every single royal house, reigning and non-reigning, that was not represented at the event in my original post, but simply to note that it was "noteable" that the Spaniards did not attend. Considering the fact that this was not a state event, but a private celebration, and given the past enmity between the two families, I'd venture a guess that they weren't invited. As far as reigning monarchies sending representatives in an official capacity, we can review the differences between "private celebrations" and "state events" in more depth if you feel it necessary to do so.

Snort. Firstly, no one said anything about an official capacity. Secondly, I'm very familiar with the difference between State and private functions, thank you. Obviously it is you that needs the review. There can be no "state event" if there is no state to begin with.

Even if every reigning monarch, consort , and heir-apparent in Europe had attended, they all would have been there in an unofficial capacity as it was private function.

Yes, I'm well aware. The fact of the mater is that the reigning houses of Europe were not represented -- either officially (which is impossible in this case) or unofficially.

As for the rest, I've never seen quite so many hairs being split simultaneously in my life!

Well, what can I say, I'm pedantic and tend to generally know what I'm talking about.

(and no, I didn't claim they were royal - thanks again for putting words in my mouth).

Actually, you did. You prefaced the top half of your list of names with the following sentence: " Among the other royal guests, there were..."

However, I note with satisfaction that you did catch the names of those whose royal status is generally unquestioned (even if they don't satisfy your rather exacting moral standards, or come from non-reigning houses, or simply aren't appealing to you)

Well, don't get too "satisfied", because, their status *isn't* generally unquestioned. More specifically, they are all non-reigning and only carry titles of pretension. These titles have no legal currency per se and, thus, their (supposed) royal status can be questioned (and has been).

conveniently left off when you capped the royalty on the guest list at the "jet-setting" Grimaldis, Prince and Princess Laurent, and "a Bonaparte".

Read the above. I didn't convienently leave them off. I just don't consider all of them royalty. And the "a Bonaparte" was in reference to the husband of Beatrice de Bourbon, not the guests in attendence.

I hate to burst your bubble, but several scions of reigning royal houses have their share of moral and behavioral shortcomings as well. Their messes just get cleaned up more quietly.

Who's denying that? I don't kow-tow to any of them, so don't worry about bursting my bubble. I hold everyone to the same standard. [/QUOTE] And I don't have exacting moral standards. I just draw the line at certain things, particularly when people are touting themselves as 'leaders'.

(And just in case you feel compelled to subtlely remand me for referring to the Grimaldis as "royalty", I already know the technicalities, thank you - it's just that there's no such word as "princelty").

The correct way to refer to them is as princely. The Princely Grimaldi's or the Grimaldi's of Monaco.

salute your vast and varied knowledge, even if I don't necessarily agree with your interpretations or share your conclusions. We could go around and around on this issue and it would get us nowhere, as the two factions of the House of the Two Sicilies themselves have been unable to put it to rest and end it amicably for 43 years.

Likewise. And actually, I'm not even remotely interested in them, although I know quite a bit about the imbroglio. I was just pointing out that, going by the rule of law, your conclusions are not correct.

By the way, the senior Bourbon is Luis Alfonso, not Juan Carlos. Speaking in terms of strict primogeniture, that is, although you may qualify things in terms of reigning and non-reigning, or apply particular moral filters in your assessments.

AFAIC, he isn't the senior Bourbon because his grandfather renounced his rights and his French claim is questionable to say the least. And I do tend to qualify things in the sense of reigning and non-reigning or the last reigning (as the case may be). They tend to have more legitimacy.


I'm off to the gym. Have a nice day.

Sean

 

[Sean.~]

Originally posted by Perillos@Dec 5th, 2003 - 3:53 pm
Sean:

Just to clarify, I can see why you thought I had described all the non-royals on that guests list as royals - I did a cut-and-paste from the Duke of Castro's website, so those were not actually my words lumping all the non-royals in with the royals. I acknowledge the fact that it looked that way, and that you weren't actually putting words in my mouth.

Don't worry about it. It's all in good debate. I didn't see this post before posting my previous message. In any event, for a change it's nice to debate/discuss with someone that knows what they're talking about (and/or presents good, thought out arguments. Even if we disagree.

Have a fabulous evening.
:flower:
S

 

[Dennism]

Photos from IBL of the Duke and Duchess of Calabria and their two daughters:

 

[elenaris]

thank you

Don't worry about it. It's all in good debate. I didn't see this post before posting my previous message. In any event, for a change it's nice to debate/discuss with someone that knows what they're talking about (and/or presents good, thought out arguments. Even if we disagree.

Have a fabulous evening.
:flower:
S

It is a really a very interesting debate about Primogeniture/ Reigning...
Thank you for such interesting information...

 

[Amira]

Prince Carlo and Princess Camilla of Borbone attend the Heart Of Children Benefit Gala at the Protomoteca Terrace at the Capitole on June 8, 2005 in Rome, Italy.

 

[GrandDuchess]

You can find pictures of the baptism of the Duke and Duchess of Calabria's second daughter, Maria Chiara, here (only small ones though, as Rex don't allow making them bigger).

 

[kelly9480]

You'll probably need to delinieate exactly who you consider to be the head of the house - the Italian, or the Spaniard. Most houses (AIUI, all except Spain) recognise the Italian, but it could lead to conflicts.

 

[pdas1201]

Duke and Duchess of Calabria's second daughter, Maria Chiara, was baptized at Stella Maris De Porto Cervo Church in Sardinia, Italy on August 2, 2005. Princess Michael was one of the godparents. Prince Henrik of Denmark was also present.

Part 1
www.rexfeatures.com

 

[pdas1201]

Part 2
www.rexfeatures.com

 

[Mandy]

Thanks pdas! What a beautiful baby!

 

[tiaraprin]

Princess Michael is a godmother to the new baby?? She is close to the Italian Royals??

 

[Marengo]

Did the King of Spain invite this Duke and Duchess of Calabria to his sons wedding? I assume that he supports the claim of the other duke of Calabria, Infante Carlos (and his lovely wife Anne of France).

 

[Danielle]

Duke and Duchess of Calabria's second daughter, Maria Chiara, was baptized at Stella Maris De Porto Cervo Church in Sardinia, Italy on August 2, 2005. Princess Michael was one of the godparents. Prince Henrik of Denmark was also present.

Part 1
www.rexfeatures.com

Thank you for posting the photos. Aww, their daughters are so beautiful. I think this photo is very sweet: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=178265 I'm sorry, but I don't really know much about this family. Who is the other child being baptised as well?

 

[carlota]

i didn't know princess michael of kent was so close to the duke and his wife camilla either... :s

 

[LaMinka]

Princess Maria Chiara is a beautiful baby!

 

[Warren]

Bourbon-Two Sicilies

I'm sorry, but I don't really know much about this family.

The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies was ruled by a branch of the Spanish Bourbons until it was forcibly annexed into the new Kingdom of Italy in 1860.

The Royal House of the Two Sicilies has a disputed succession. Since 1960 the Headship of the Royal House has been claimed by Prince Don Carlos, Duke of Calabria, and by Prince Don Ferdinando, Duke of Castro.

Don Carlos is married to Princess Anne of France and was granted the title of Infant of Spain by King Juan Carlos in 1994. Needless to say, the Spanish Royal House recognises Don Carlos as the rightful Head.

Don Carlos and Anne have one son and four daughters: Prince Pedro, whose first child was born in 1993 (scandal!), married the mother, Sofia Landaluce y Melgareja, in 2001, and has two more children. This marriage is not considered dynastic. The daughters are Cristina, married to Pedro Lopez-Quesada; Maria Paloma, married to Archduke Simeon of Austria; Ines, married to an Italian aristocrat; and Victoria, married to Marco Nomikos of the Greek shipping family.

The rival, Don Ferdinando, married Chantal, a French aristocrat (who died a few weeks ago). There are three children: Charles (Carlo) (styled Duke of Calabria as well, to add to the confusion), who married Camilla Crociani (the subject of this thread) in 1998; best man at the wedding in Monaco was Prince Albert; Beatrice, who married (and divorced) Charles, Prince Napoleon, and Anne, who married an aristocrat.

The bitter dispute over the Headship of the House may well resolve itself if Prince Pedro's sons are disqualified from the succession, and if Prince Charles has the longed-for son.
.

 

[Piewi]

Maria Chiara is sooooo beautiful and cute

 

[mybags]

Princess Michael is Senior Dame of the British and Irish Delegation of the Constantinian Order, closely associated with the Calabria family. The other baby being christened is the daughter of the Duchess's sister, Cristina Crociani Delrieu. Cristina is married to Nicolas Delrieu. Their daughter is named Delia.

 

[Alisa]

Thank you for the pictures. The children are absolutely beautiful!! I am surprised that we didn't see Prince Laurent and Princess Claire present.

 

[bigheadshirmp]

that baby is so cute......i especially like the one where she put her finger in her mouth~!!!!