Bourbon-Parma: Spain, Carlist political activity, the Montejurra Shootings

[MAfan]

My mistake! My enormous mistake! Please forgive me...

Duke Xavier was not descendant from Don Carlos (1788-1855), altough Xavier was very closely related to Don Carlos and his descendants:
Xavier's great-grandmother was the sister of Don Carlos;
Xavier's paternal aunt Margherita married the carlist claimant Carlos, Duke of Madrid (1848-1909)
Xavier's maternal aunt Maria das Neves married the carlist calimant Alfonso Carlos, Duke of San Jaime;
Xavier's maternal grandfather was the brother of Don Carlos' wife, Maria Francisca.

I don't know what I was thinking to when I wrote that, please accept my apology; btw, it remains that Xavier was not a descendant of Don Carlos, and therefore he was not entitled to inherit Don Alfonso Carlos' claims to the Spanish throne.

 

[jonnydep]

Xavier was very closely related to Don Carlos and his descendants:
Xavier's great-grandmother was the sister of Don Carlos;
Xavier's paternal aunt Margherita married the carlist claimant Carlos, Duke of Madrid (1848-1909)
Xavier's maternal aunt Maria das Neves married the carlist calimant Alfonso Carlos, Duke of San Jaime;
Xavier's maternal grandfather was the brother of Don Carlos' wife, Maria Francisca. btw, it remains that Xavier was not a descendant of Don Carlos, and therefore he was not entitled to inherit Don Alfonso Carlos' claims to the Spanish throne.

i quite agree.....but given the adove family links made him a most suitable candidate to be the next carlist head ...as i have mentioned adove, although he was not carlist born, he was a carlist by inclination and he a had burning enthusiasm for the task in hand, besides he was kept in readiness for years before his uncle died, he was proclaimed regent by his uncle remember !!. moreover... he was a direct male descendant of the first bourbon king of spain philip v.....!!

ps i very much hope that my posts may have helped to answer your question (post 23) :how is it possible that duke xavier (and his son) became the carlist claimants to the throne ? : as always i am willing to help !!

 

[MAfan]

Well, if the criterion to determine the head of Carlism is the personal political inclination toward the Carlist principles, therefore Don Jaime shouldn't have been head of the Carlism due to his socialist ideals (he was known as the "red pretender").
But since Carlism supported the Salic Law, as Don Jaime knew his successor after Don Alfonso Carlos should have been King Alfonso XIII.
Now the dispute may be between Don Luis Alfonso de Bourbon and the present King Juan Carlos...

 

[jonnydep]

Well, if the criterion to determine the head of Carlism is the personal political inclination toward the Carlist principles, therefore Don Jaime shouldn't have been head of the Carlism due to his socialist ideals (he was known as the "red pretender").

a very good point MAfan !!.....but one must remember don jaime was carlist born and thereby the undisputed head of carlist line, regardless of his personal political inclinations !!. i agree that his socialist ideals was very unfortunate for the carlists !! but enough said of him....as it is slightly off topic.

although duke xavier was accepted by the majority of the carlists, as the new pretender in april 1937, his headship was disputed by some carlists, who invoked the semi-salic law, by the championing the archduke karl of austria / tuscany, a nephew of don jaime, while others favored the marques valldona (i can not tell you how he fits in the picture, as i do not know anthing more of him........could anyone enlighten me please), am not sure if they had carlist principals to boot !!

btw one must remember that duke xavier, although not very well known in spain.... was highly thought of in royal / aristocratic circles and the courts of europe (he had over twenty siblings, some of which married into other royal familes of europe), i guess this also greatly helped his way to becoming the head of the carlists......

 

[jonnydep]

skipping a lot of Princes who had more right then xavier to be the heir...

i cant help thinking, that this is not exactly unheard of........

in 1701 to suit the political and religious mores of the day, princess sophia, electress and dowager duchess of hanover, was declared heir to the british throne.....

moreover there was a host of other princes and princesses etc, who had more right to the throne then sophia !!.

 

[lucien]

(Moderator's note: this post has been copied from this thread in the Dutch forum)

For supporters of Carlos Hugo, Carlos Hugo decides, for supporters of Sixte-Henry, Sixte-Henry decides. If you think that Carlos Hugo is the one who decides, you are welcome, but you must accept that somebody think in a different way.

I wasn't too sure about Sixte-Henry's decision because if not Carlos and Jaime, who can be the heir?

Sixte is of no consequence to any matter regarding the Bourbon de Parme Family.Let that be absolutely clear for each and everyone.

I have made my points several times on Sixte,and if you wish to know this read the thread on the Bourbon Parma family in the Italian section.That man has no say in anything. It has nothing to do with thinking a different way,
he is absolutely of NO consequence,nor is any of his verbal diarhea.No-one gives a dime for that man.


HRH The Duke of Parma decides,and only him,as HE is the Head of the House,and that is the ONLY one whose words count.Solo.

His Royal Highness The Duke of Parma celebrates his 80th birthday today,thursday april 8th.
Many Happy returns!

 

[amedea]

Ok, Lucien, even if not necessary, you expressed again your feelings about S-H. Unforunately you did not add anything to what everybody know about the issue and, allow me to say it, you sound ridicolous in expressing your sympathies in such a dogmatic way.
MAfan, I competely agree with you about the diversity between the Parma claim and the Carlist claim (I also wrote it before, in this thread). But what I was worrying about in the previous posts is not the Parma claim but the Carlist one. Javier and his descendants were chosen by the duke of Saint Jaime, so I was not sure about the other Bourbon-Parmas. It is also true that they were probably chosen because they were the nearer member in the Bourbon family to still support the Carlism, so the rule could be this one.

 

[lucien]

It is not a dogma Amedea,I don't write S-H to check...I mean,who's rediculous here.

I don't have sympathy for murderers,no,and I will express that in relation to S-H when
I see fit and I so please in the context of the next rediculous occasion this creature is brought up,amice.
Any time,so no-one forgets he did kill two people while he aimed at Irene and C-H.
His name nor link to him doesn't belong in this thread.We have the Italian department for that.

And on any Carlist claim,that is in the aforementioned thread as well as both C-H and Carlos have
nothing to do with that movement anymore.It's a Don Quichote sort of couleur locale anyway,
no-one takes them serious nor do they matter.It's an idee fix to think they're of any significance really.

They even have a page on Facebook where they revere Carlos-Hugo as the rightfull "Rey" of Spain....nah..
Funny page,you can look it up,I first thought it was about a bad opera,but no.

 

[MAfan]

MAfan, I competely agree with you about the diversity between the Parma claim and the Carlist claim (I also wrote it before, in this thread). But what I was worrying about in the previous posts is not the Parma claim but the Carlist one. Javier and his descendants were chosen by the duke of Saint Jaime, so I was not sure about the other Bourbon-Parmas. It is also true that they were probably chosen because they were the nearer member in the Bourbon family to still support the Carlism, so the rule could be this one.

I'll be plain, I really don't care of the Carlist claims. The reason is quite simple, Carlism was born as a political movement against liberalism, and most of all against the 1830 Pragmatic Sanction and supporting Salic Law.
This means that the natural successor of the claims to the Spanish Throne, because this was the true and original matter, of Don Alfonso Carlos in 1936 was King Alfonso XIII, as senior male descendant of Don Carlos' younger brother.
Considering that, I never understood why Prince Xavier became head of Carlism, and personally I think Carlism has died in 1936 with Don Alfonso Carlos.
The Carlism of Xavier, Carlos Hugo and Sixte Henri imo has almost nothing to do with the original Carlism, like the present neofascist movements which have nothing to do with fascism but the name.

 

[lucien]

Ok, Lucien, even if not necessary, you expressed again your feelings about S-H. Unforunately you did not add anything to what everybody know about the issue and, allow me to say it, you sound ridicolous in expressing your sympathies in such a dogmatic way.
MAfan, I competely agree with you about the diversity between the Parma claim and the Carlist claim (I also wrote it before, in this thread). But what I was worrying about in the previous posts is not the Parma claim but the Carlist one. Javier and his descendants were chosen by the duke of Saint Jaime, so I was not sure about the other Bourbon-Parmas. It is also true that they were probably chosen because they were the nearer member in the Bourbon family to still support the Carlism, so the rule could be this one.

And besides,"everybody know about the issue"?..I was the one that told this here,amice.Everybody reacted in disbelieve,read the thread and see.....expert....grin......

 

[nascarlucy]

What did the individuals who tried to kill Charles Hugo and his wife Irene hope to accomplish by killing them. It's interesting that they tried to do this after Franco died. I don't think they would have attempted this when he was alive. What would they gain from it? Or what did they hope to gain from it. This really isn't clear. A Carlist was not about to become the next political leader of Spain or take over the country. Perhaps they tried to take advantage of a government which was still evolving. If this was their motive in trying to kill him, it didn't work.

 

[Marengo]

According to Princess Irene (on dutch tv), prince Sixtus was actually one of the people trying to shoot them. No idea about what they were aiming to do, in case of Carlos Hugo's death it is very unlikely that his sons would have been raised by the Parma's. And I can't imagine the Dutch RF having much time to teach them about carlism...

Oddly enough prince Sixtus, who claims to bea catholic, now says that the death of the brother he tried to kill saddens him, I suppose that is some improvement .

 

[Jason R Maier esq]

Whoa . . even after reading this . . I'm very shocked Sixtus tried to kill his own brother

 

[Katrianna]

According to Princess Irene (on dutch tv), prince Sixtus was actually one of the people trying to shoot them. No idea about what they were aiming to do, in case of Carlos Hugo's death it is very unlikely that his sons would have been raised by the Parma's. And I can't imagine the Dutch RF having much time to teach them about carlism...

Oddly enough prince Sixtus, who claims to bea catholic, now says that the death of the brother he tried to kill saddens him, I suppose that is some improvement .

....and for Sixtus it's a little improvement that's too late.

 

[MAfan]

To be honest, when I read the statement of Sixte Henri, where he told that the death of his brother saddens him, but also asking his nephews if they are finally ready to disown their father's acts and ideals, I had the impression that the sentence about his sadness was put there just because he couldn't avoid it, not to appear as very very tacky and tactless.
Maybe he is really sorry (and it would be an improvement indeed) but imo he should say it in first instance, not just after mentioning Carlos Hugo's "nefanda defección" and after praying God to forgive Carlos Hugo.

 

[Katrianna]

To be honest, when I read the statement of Sixte Henri, where he told that the death of his brother saddens him, but also asking his nephews if they are finally ready to disown their father's acts and ideals, I had the impression that the sentence about his sadness was put there just because he couldn't avoid it, not to appear as very very tacky and tactless.
Maybe he is really sorry (and it would be an improvement indeed) but imo he should say it in first instance, not just after mentioning Carlos Hugo's "nefanda defección" and after praying God to forgive Carlos Hugo.

Absolutely, how true!