Who is the Head of the Imperial Family?

[branchg]

Exactly. And GD Nicholas, now his parents were equal? I can't remember.

If you're referring to Nicholas Romanovitch, his father, Prince Roman, did not marry equally. His mother was Countess Prasovia Cheremeteva, who was of the Russian nobility.

Prince Roman's father, Grand Duke Peter, did marry equally to Princess Milica of Montenegro. Peter's elder brother, Grand Duke Nicholas, married Milica's sister, Princess Anastasia, and had no children.

 

[Russophile]

If you're referring to Nicholas Romanovitch, his father, Prince Roman, did not marry equally. His mother was Countess Prasovia Cheremeteva, who was of the Russian nobility.

Prince Roman's father, Grand Duke Peter, did marry equally to Princess Milica of Montenegro. Peter's elder brother, Grand Duke Nicholas, married Milica's sister, Princess Anastasia, and had no children.

I remember Anastasia of Montenegro was married before, but was Militsa?

 

[branchg]

Princess Milica had only one marriage. She is notorious, along with her sister, of dabbling extensively in mysticism and introducing Rasputin to Nicholas and Alexandra.

 

[MAfan]

Anastasia was married firstly to Duke Georg of Leuchtenberg, and secondly to Grand Duke Nicholas.

 

[Russophile]

Anastasia was married firstly to Duke Georg of Leuchtenberg, and secondly to Grand Duke Nicholas.

I read that this morning MAFan in the Minnie book. They had issue, one son. Thanks for helping out!

 

[vsriCo]

RUSSIAN IMPERIAL SUCCESSION, by BRIEN HORAN

Has anyone read this above article? It makes valid points regarding the status of GD Maria's Mother, Princess Leonida. Is there a rebuttal to the above article at all? it seems sound from a legal perspective, and in accordance with the Pauline Laws.

Catherine the Great, "[...]respect the independence of Georgia and that henceforth Irakly II, as a believer in the same faith as Ours and as an ally of Russia, bears the title of King of Georgia, in which title and rights he and his issue are confirmed by Russia forever and for all time.'"

 

[branchg]

The main issue with Leonida is she was of the Bagration-Moukrahni line which was junior and not covered in the Treaty as retaining royal status. From the start, they were inscribed in the Fifth Book of Nobility and subjects of the Empire.

A marriage of a dynast and a Bagration was not equal under the Pauline Laws and Vladimir knew it.

 

[vsriCo]

The main issue with Leonida is she was of the Bagration-Moukrahni line which was junior and not covered in the Treaty as retaining royal status. From the start, they were inscribed in the Fifth Book of Nobility and subjects of the Empire.

A marriage of a dynast and a Bagration was not equal under the Pauline Laws and Vladimir knew it.

the senior line of the bagration dynasty died out in 1801, and leonida's line again became the most senior. the placement of her line in the fifth book of nobility was illegal. here are some quotes I found interesting from the essay:

"Part of the Russification campaign included a specific attempt to undermine the royal status of and to weaken nationalist loyalty to the Bagration dynasty. This was because a number of the many nationalist insurrections which took place in Georgia throughout the nineteenth century were monarchist in inspiration and purpose. The most famous was the 1830 plot to restore the Bagrations. Moscow eventually sent Grand Duke Michael of Russia, son of Tsar Nicholas I, as viceroy of the Caucasus and also began to list the Bagrations in the nobility books not as royal princes but as mere 'titled nobility.'[77] The Bagrations, however, mindful both of their ancient rights and of Russia's solemn obligations under the 1783 Treaty of Georgievsk to maintain the royal status of the Georgian dynasty, never renounced their royal status.

"It was not until the twentieth century, during the reign of Emperor Nicholas II, that Russia began to make amends. This occurred in 1911, when a member of the Russian Imperial Family, Princess Tatiana of Russia (daughter of Grand Duke Constantine of Russia), married a member of the Georgian dynasty, Prince Constantine Bagration of Moukhrani, later an aide-de-camp to Emperor Nicholas II. Prior to the wedding, Emperor Nicholas II and Empress Alexandra personally told Grand Duke Constantine, the father of the bride, that 'they would never look upon her marriage to a Bagration as morganatic, because this House, like the House of Orleans [of France], is descended from a once ruling dynasty.' (November 30, 1910 entry, From the Diaries of Grand Duke Constantine Constantinovich, published in Moscow, February 1994). The bride was also asked to renounce her rights to the Russian throne, as was customary when a female of the Russian Imperial Family married a foreign prince. (Another example was the renunciation of Grand Duchess Anastasia Mikhailovna of Russia upon her marriage to the Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin). The late Prince Theimouraz Bagration of Moukhrani, only son of the 1911 Georgian-Russian marriage [of Prince Constantine Bagration and Princess Tatiana of Russia], frequently described Emperor Nicholas II's suggestion that the groom sign the marriage register as "Prince of Georgia".

"Despite his private comment to Grand Duke Constantine, the Tsar never issued a decree formally clarifying that he considered the 1911 union to be an equal marriage.[78] The First World War erupted in August 1914, and the young bridegroom, Prince Bagration, was killed in action at the front in May 1915. Less than two years later, the Romanoffs themselves were toppled from their throne.

"The nagging question of Russia's violation of its 1783 treaty obligations arose again in exile. In 1946, Prince Irakly Bagration of Moukhrani, father of the present head of the Georgian Royal House, married as his second wife a member of the Spanish Royal Family, Infanta Maria de las Mercedes of Spain, who was mentioned above. (Prince Irakly's first wife had died in childbirth in 1944, giving birth to the present Prince George.) At the time of the 1946 marriage, the bride's father, Infante Ferdinand of Spain, wrote to the Grand Duke Wladimir, head of the Russian Imperial Family, to ask what the Russian attitude was on the royal status of the Bagrations.

from wikipedia:

In 1942 Prince Irakli Bagrationi-Mukhraneli (brother of Princess Leonida), of the genealogically senior branch of the dynasty, proclaimed himself Head of the Royal House of Georgia,[21] in the absence of evidence that Bagrationis of the Kakhetian branch (which had reigned until 1801) still survived in the Soviet Union.

 

[branchg]

There are descendants of the Kahketian line that did survive and are living in Georgia since the Heron article was published. So, Leonida's line is not senior after all.

Either way, the Bagrations were never considered of equal rank to the imperial family and the marriage would not have been accepted as dynastic. However, Vladimir declared the marriage equal, which was his sole perogative as the Head of the House, and that was the end of it.

From a realistic point of view, the current descendants are all morganatic and have equal status to each other.

 

[vsriCo]

There are descendants of the Kahketian line that did survive and are living in Georgia since the Heron article was published. So, Leonida's line is not senior after all.

I see. do you have any links regarding this Fifth Book of Nobility? I mean, to me it appears that placing the bagrationi-mukhrani line in it as nobility is not of any legal significance given the premise of the treaty signed under Catherine the Great.[/quote]

Either way, the Bagrations were never considered of equal rank to the imperial family and the marriage would not have been accepted as dynastic. However, Vladimir declared the marriage equal, which was his sole perogative as the Head of the House, and that was the end of it.

Assuming the credibility of the quote in my previous post which suggested that Nicholas II was going to approve of the marriage between the Russian duchess and the Georgian prince, I'd disagree that they were never considered legally equal.

From a realistic point of view, the current descendants are all morganatic and have equal status to each other.

What do you mean by realistic? from a legal perspective, and given that the Pauline Laws are a legal docuement, shouldn't the fact that Vladimir approved of his own marriage been the end of it? on what basis do people challenge this?

by the way, thanks for putting up with me - you've probably had this conversation a thousand times

 

[Marsel]

Nicholas was never going to accept the marriage of Grand Duke Konstantin’s daughter and Prince Konstantin Bagration-Mukhrani as dynastic. On the contrary, he requested the Princess to relinquish all her succession rights before approving the marriage.
It was well understood at the time that Bagration-Mukhrani branch was nobility, not Royalty and the marriage could not be regarded as equal.

That despite the fact that Grand Duke Konstantin Konstantinovich and indeed, even Nicholas II himself, were very fond of Prince Konstantin and held him in high esteem. The Grand Duke was left devastated when Prince Konstantin was killed in the Caucasian front during World War I.

 

[vsriCo]

Nicholas was never going to accept the marriage of Grand Duke Konstantin’s daughter and Prince Konstantin Bagration-Mukhrani as dynastic. On the contrary, he requested the Princess to relinquish all her succession rights before approving the marriage.

from the essay:

Emperor Nicholas II. Prior to the wedding, Emperor Nicholas II and Empress Alexandra personally told Grand Duke Constantine, the father of the bride, that 'they would never look upon her marriage to a Bagration as morganatic, because this House, like the House of Orleans [of France], is descended from a once ruling dynasty.' (November 30, 1910 entry, From the Diaries of Grand Duke Constantine Constantinovich, published in Moscow, February 1994). The bride was also asked to renounce her rights to the Russian throne, as was customary when a female of the Russian Imperial Family married a foreign prince. (Another example was the renunciation of Grand Duchess Anastasia Mikhailovna of Russia upon her marriage to the Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin). The late Prince Theimouraz Bagration of Moukhrani, only son of the 1911 Georgian-Russian marriage [of Prince Constantine Bagration and Princess Tatiana of Russia], frequently described Emperor Nicholas II's suggestion that the groom sign the marriage register as "Prince of Georgia".

It was well understood at the time that Bagration-Mukhrani branch was nobility, not Royalty and the marriage could not be regarded as equal.

it's awfully confusing given that princes of the Bagration-Mukhrani branch were also sovereigns of the georgian principality of Moukhrani until 1801. it may have been 'understood' at the time that it would not have been an equal marriage, but whether this is legally correct or not i'm not sure

 

[Russophile]

Let's play pretend, here: If Maria is confirmed and Georgie sits on the throne. What in the heck could they do to rule the country? Really? It's a mess (and so is MY country! ).

 

[Marsel]

Even if the Russian Monarchy were to be reinstated tomorrow and Maria Vladimirovna was the universally acknowledged Head of the Imperial Family, I’m prepared to bet anything that Prince George, a member of German and Georgian Houses, would have less chances of being accepted by Russians than Mrs. Russophile from USA.

And yes, the country is in mess.

 

[Russophile]

Even if the Russian Monarchy were to be reinstated tomorrow and Maria Vladimirovna was the universally acknowledged Head of the Imperial Family, I’m prepared to bet anything that Prince George, a member of German and Georgian Houses, would have less chances of being accepted by Russians than Mrs. Russophile from USA.

And yes, the country is in mess.

That's Russo to YOU Marsel!

Then why do it? She should have just came up with a perfume or something to make money and been a glittering socialite a la Ivanna Trump (but with trimmer triceps).

 

[Marsel]

Ah, but Russophile sounds a bit better when we are talking about potential restoration of Russian Monarchy.
I honestly don't know why Maria Vladimirovna or Prince Nicholas or any of the others bother: possibly, because of status, title, compensation and other reasons only they can know. I may even be generous enough to believe in genuinely altruistic reasons.

But I do mean it - even if we wake up in the morning with urgent need to restore Monarchy, Prince George isn't going to be the one called forward. One of the other Romanovs - probably, a descendant of Romanovs from other Royal Houses (like Romanian or British) - possibly, but German/Georgian Prince - don't count on it.
I hope I'm not offending anyone with the post: it's just simple and plain truth.

By the way, the time of Prince George's marriage is rapidly approaching: do you think there are any chances of him making an 'equal' marriage? I mean you could probably count eligible (under all the Romanov marriage laws) Princesses of his age on fingers of one hand, and he hasn’t probably met even one of them.

 

[Russophile]

You have a better gauge than the rest of us on how your country feels, so I don't think you'll be offending anybody.

Georgie's 28, why not one of the York girls??

 

[COUNTESS]

Sure, the York girls will just jump at the chance. Better chance they will jump off a bridge and I hope not. Being the head of the Romanov's is like being the head of a Conga line. No one cares in real essence. It is all discusiion with no substance.

 

[Russophile]

Sure, the York girls will just jump at the chance. Better chance they will jump off a bridge and I hope not. Being the head of the Romanov's is like being the head of a Conga line. No one cares in real essence. It is all discusiion with no substance.

Da, da, da, da, da, DA! Da, da, da, da, da, DA! C'mon! Everybody join the conga!
YouTube - Gloria Estefan & Miami Sound Machine - "Conga" Music Video


I'm soooo gonna be "sanitized for your protection. . "

 

[branchg]

I think it's extremely unlikely, to say the least, that Maria Vladimirovna or George Romanov have any chance to ever be called upon to assume the throne if restored. Neither is acceptable to the average Russian since Maria has a Georgian mother and George's father is a Hohenzollern prince, two very big strikes against them. The Russian people couldn't care less about the Pauline Law or their royal status.

At the same time, none of the remaining Romanovs are particularly held in high esteem, indeed there is still much contempt for their history in Russia, which was hardly honourable.

I don't think there is a happy ending to this fairy tale. The monarchy is not going to be restored in Russia anytime soon, if ever. While Maria has done an admirable job upholding the dignity and traditions of the Imperial House, that's quite different than reigning on a non-existent throne.

 

[COUNTESS]

When I used the analogy of the "Conga Line", I wondered if anyone would remember that.

 

[vsriCo]

Let's play pretend, here: If Maria is confirmed and Georgie sits on the throne. What in the heck could they do to rule the country? Really? It's a mess (and so is MY country! ).

I don't think anyone suggesting a reinstatement of the Russian monarchy is in favour of giving it autocratic powers.

I think it's extremely unlikely, to say the least, that Maria Vladimirovna or George Romanov have any chance to ever be called upon to assume the throne if restored. Neither is acceptable to the average Russian since Maria has a Georgian mother and George's father is a Hohenzollern prince, two very big strikes against them.

True. This seems to be the case with every Slavic country that has a monarchy, Serbia etc.

 

[Marsel]

Loved the Conga, Russo!

I think it's extremely unlikely, to say the least, that Maria Vladimirovna or George Romanov have any chance to ever be called upon to assume the throne if restored. Neither is acceptable to the average Russian since Maria has a Georgian mother and George's father is a Hohenzollern prince, two very big strikes against them. The Russian people couldn't care less about the Pauline Law or their royal status.

I completely agree with you. The Pauline laws or Treaties are important for people interested in Genealogy or Royalty, but the people are completely indifferent to those matters. Maria Vladimirovna, with her Georgian roots and her German born son are on the very bottom of any list.
I have nothing against Prince George: on the contrary, he’s a very amiable and likable person. But prospective Russian Monarch - hardly.

At the same time, none of the remaining Romanovs are particularly held in high esteem, indeed there is still much contempt for their history in Russia, which was hardly honourable.

And again, I agree with you. While people may be interested in their past, I daresay the Romanovs have left a highly mixed legacy, one we would rather forget, nor revive.
Unfortunately, none of the Romanovs (including Maria Vladimirovna) is even known to ordinary Russian people, let alone held in any esteem.

I don't think there is a happy ending to this fairy tale. The monarchy is not going to be restored in Russia anytime soon, if ever. While Maria has done an admirable job upholding the dignity and traditions of the Imperial House, that's quite different than reigning on a non-existent throne.

Somehow, I am certain that the Monarchy will be restored one day. Not absolute Monarchy as it used to be under the Romanovs, but a constitutional one, similar to the British Monarchy (we love everything British, which is why we complain about them all the time).

 

[Russophile]

For the pomp and circumstance Marsel? Cuz you know nobody does it like the English, except the Romanovs, once upon a time. . . .




(Glad everybody liked the joke, Russo doesn't think it wise to push it. . . )

 

[Warren]

The current discussion of an alleged newly-found Romanov dynast has been moved to the Romanov Pretenders and Imposters thread.

Warren
Russian Forums moderator

 

[Benjamin]

Guy Stair Sainty has added to his website an updated version of the essay written by Brien Horan on the Russian succession.

The essay can be found here: THE RUSSIAN IMPERIAL SUCCESSION

 

[Next Star]

Maria Vladmirinova maybe recongized as head of the house by other heads of the houses but I'm going by house laws she is not eliegible to make such a claim.I know there enough male relatives close atleast distant cousin to be head of this house.I have nothing against her but I'm going by the laws of the house and they say she is not head of this house.

 

[Cory]

When Grand Duke Vladimir died all the other branches of the Imperial Family had lost their rights because of morganatic marriages.Grand Duchess Maria is the rightful Head of the Imperial House if we read carefully the laws of Paul I.

 

[Next Star]

When Grand Duke Vladimir died all the other branches of the Imperial Family had lost their rights because of morganatic marriages.Grand Duchess Maria is the rightful Head of the Imperial House if we read carefully the laws of Paul I.

No she is not a woman cannot hold headship when their is other males that are close or distant cousin who follow all the laws she does not even
follow one being she is not a man this takes her out of the equation.

 

[COUNTESS]

It is all moot. They can argue about this, until the cows come home (An American expression), it, really, doesn't matter.