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  #141  
Old 02-12-2009, 02:26 PM
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The present Head of the Gagarin princely family has a PhD and another degree- I don't know if that makes him brilliant. His late father, Prince Nikolai Nicolaievitch spoke ten languages, was a good baseball player, and intellectual. Both his parents were Russian, which sets him appart from Maria Vladimirovna- though she is a great lady with great potential ( I don't know about tact). When the Albanians voted against monarchy restoration in 1997, one of the reasons given was that the King, Leka, is half Hungarian, while his son, Leka, is half Australian. If feel this would also be an issue in Russia. Of course you don't have to go with Gagarin. There are other Russian princely families of Rurikovichy ancestry, such as Dolgorukov, Lobanov-Rostovsky, Galitzine, and others. However, since the Revolution, may of these famillies ended up fairly poor, since the Soviets confiscated their assets which were mostly tied up in property. Quite a few of these families are either now extinct, or facing extinction, which often hapens when a family's finances collapse. I have read that post revolution, some of the Romanoff-Oldenburgs were driving taxis and digging roads to survive in exile! Try to obain a copy of the book Once a Grand Duke, by one of the late Czar's cousins.
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  #142  
Old 02-12-2009, 02:40 PM
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Catherine the Great was a minor German princess, the daughter of the Duke of Anhalt-Zerbst. However, I have read that she descends in the remote female line from one of the Russian Grand Princes (I think Mikhail Grand Prince of Tver). So her son, Pavel, could genuinely claim descent, after all, from the original Rurikovichy Grand Princes, despite his German origins. Of course the original Romanoffs were true Russians, more so even than the Rurikovichy. However, the true Romanoff dynasty died out in the male line with Czar Pyotr II in 1730, and in the female line with Czarina Elisaveta Petrovna in 1761. Maria Vladimirovna has no more right, really, to call herself a Romanoff, than her cousin, the Prince of Montenegro, who is also a cognate of the dynasty.
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  #143  
Old 02-12-2009, 05:02 PM
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The most intelligent member of the Russian royal family - Nikolay Romanov, who is a historian - doesn't want to be a tzar. Others are less intelligent and want to be. But anyway it is hard to imagine a restoration of a monarchy in the modern Russia.
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  #144  
Old 02-13-2009, 07:22 PM
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Odly enough, opinion polls have indicated that as much as one third of Russians are partial to the idea of a constitutional monarchy- Russia is currently going through a nationalist phase, mainly due to the loss of large parts of it's former Empire, including Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and the Baltic states. However, few people, including the monarchist camp, take Maria Vladimirovna seriously, and I have read that she has put more than a couple of noses out of joint in Moscow- something you don't want to do if you are campaigning for a restoration- which she believes is possible! I read that Boris Yeltsin was rumoured to be secretly grooming Maria's son, George (Yuri) to be a constitutional monarch, but since Yeltsin's departure from Russian politics, no more has been said or heard of this idea. Vladimir Putin was said to be partial to the idea of an appointed Head of State, because of the logistical nightmare of electing a President in a country as vast and diverse and complex as the Russian federation.
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  #145  
Old 02-16-2009, 02:09 PM
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Russia is still controlled by the former KGB and Putin is a symbol of that control. Restoring the Romanovs would simply give the current powerholders another tool to use in manipulating the people to meet their own ends.

Maria has not taken a strong stance towards speaking of democracy or freedom of the press in Russia. She is only concerned with pursuing a throne, which has not gone over well with liberals. There is only a very small segment of society that even cares about the Romanovs or the monarchy.

It's not going to happen.
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  #146  
Old 02-18-2009, 02:53 PM
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I tend to agree with you, however miracles do happen, like the recent campaign for a constitutional monarchy in Georgia- who would have thought that an obscure Caucasian dynasty, out of power for more than 200 years would suddenly attract so much attention again.

But you are right. Unless the Russian royals get in with the former KGB heavies, there would be little hope of a restoration in Russia. I actually don't think that real democracy is possible in Russia- democracy has never been part of it's culture, and there is just too much at stake for the players to act with integrity. A certain amount of corruption and intrigue will always plague Russian politics- as it did under the Czarist regime, and the Soviet regime. What's new, really?
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  #147  
Old 02-18-2009, 03:37 PM
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I think it is inaccurate to project the Georgian scenario of restoration onto Russia. From the geo-political standpoint, the above countries are absolutely different. Monarchists had a good chance for restorations during the Yeltsin's second term, when educated Russians were taken aback by his inability to govern the country. Putin's emergence as a new leader, who was determined to improve lives of ususal Russian as well as create political/economical stability and reduce lawlessness within the country, severely reduced these chances.
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  #148  
Old 02-23-2009, 02:52 PM
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Very interesting. Yes Georgia and Russia are two very different societies. I think recent Georgian dynastic marriage might just put Bagrationis back on the Throne. Problem with Eatern Europeans, they don't really understand the concept of constitutional monarchy. This is a very diificult concept to sell when they have been used to strong presidencies and dictatorship, for so long.
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  #149  
Old 05-09-2009, 04:07 PM
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Do not forget, that Putin was very close to former Mair of St. Petersbourg, Anatolyi Sobchak, and greeted Maria and Georgiy in Russia several times at the times of Eltzine. And of course Romanov's burial was a part of Kremlin image campaign at that time. But you are right, Putin allways wanted to be a tzar himself.
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  #150  
Old 05-17-2009, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
It's not going to happen.
You are quite correct. Romanov's shouldn't quit their day jobs. And a Romanovs speaking of democracy or freedom of the press, only if it suited them...a poor joke at best.
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  #151  
Old 05-18-2009, 10:46 PM
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No, the Romanovs won't be back in Russia any day too soon. I think GD Maria Vladimrovna and her son are the correct claimants, but Russia has other issues than bringing back the Romanovs. Certainly, she and her son believe in their cause, and are devoted to it, but it's a bygone age. I don't think it's wrong for them to be devoted to being the legitimate Romanov claimants though.
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  #152  
Old 08-15-2009, 08:33 PM
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Princess Maria Vladimorovna claims as head of the Russian imperial house are challanged just as other members have stated on this thread before me.
I have three good reasons why I feel she is not the rightful head of this house
all of them are based on history and facts by those who are royal geneoligist.
1.Her father the late prince Vladimir's mother Grand Duchess Maria Pavlona was not Greek Orthodox at the time of his birth.
2.He broke the oath of alligence and took the assumption of the imperial title upon himself and his wife and child without being the granted the right by the head of the imperial house in 1924.
3.The marriage of the princess's mother Princess Leoniola Gerogievna Bagration-Mukhransky cousin (Prince Constantine Bagration-Mukhuransky to Grand Duchess Tatiana Constatinova their marriage was seen as unequal.
So the same thing should have applied to the princess' parnets marriage being she was not of a royal nor soverign house that is recongized by the russian imperial house laws.
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  #153  
Old 08-15-2009, 10:26 PM
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As far as I know there are these possibilities:

1) GD Kyril became head of the IF, after him his son Vladimir and now Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna.

2) GD Kyril became head of the IF, after him his son Vladimir. As women do not have succession rights according to the Pauline laws after Maria the headship went to Prince Nicholas Romanovitch Romanov

3) GD Kyril did not succeed as his mother was not Orthodox at the time of his birth. So the first in line was Prince Vsevelod Ivanovitch Romanov. He was succeeded by Nicholas Romanovitch Romanov.

4) There is no head of the IF, Kyril and descendents can not succeed due tyo the reasons stated above while the other princess all married morganatically and lost there rights too.

--
There is another overlooked and misunderstood issue. If one goes strictly by the succession laws of the last Czar Nicholas. He stated in his reforms not only that those in succession must marry of equal standing, but also that they must be issued and must be approved a New, Separate Coat of Arms and appointed cadet branch. He was killed and died without having issued nor approved these, if one follows strictly his succession laws the line is extinct. The Czar could not have forseen his end. Thereby were exception to be made I would favor Grand Duchcess Maria's line because the other requirement have been satisfied.
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  #154  
Old 08-16-2009, 03:31 PM
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I understand Maria Vladimirovna is the most accepted Head of the Imperial Family, at least in the western countries.
However, she simply cannot be one. By law. Even if one doesn't take into account the dubious acceptance of her parents' marriage as 'equal', there is still the Pauline law (that was never cancelled), which bans females from succeeded to the Throne or Headship of the House.

It is naive to say that just because her father, Grand Duke Vladimir (who was a more or less acknowledged Head of the Imperial Family) appointed Maria Vladimirovna as his successor, she could automatically become one: it would require nothing less but a Parliament Act to alter the succession laws.

Strictly speaking, there wasn't a rightful Head of the Imperial House after the death of Grand Duke Mikhail. After Nicholas II's abdication, Mikhail refused to accept the Crown and demanded a referendum. Since no referendum ever took place, the line effectively ended with the Grand Duke's assassination.
And of course, all current Romanovs 'disqualified' themselves in one way or another, be it unequal marriage or Pauline law.
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  #155  
Old 08-16-2009, 08:58 PM
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Not forgoing all you have mentioned, Marsel, though it isn't just in western countries. The Russian Orthodox church itself considers her the rightful claimant. And it's made no attempt to hide this fact.
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  #156  
Old 08-16-2009, 09:55 PM
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Most of Russian Orthodox Church acknowledges Maria Vladimirovna's claims. I haven't seen a formal declaration by any representative of the Russian Orthodox Church that would publically recognize Maria Vladimirovna as Head of the Imperial Family. True, she is given a preferential treatment during church-organized events, but that hardly constitutes official recogniztion.
If it came to official recognition, I’d say Prince Nikolai Romanovich has more chances: the Russian Orthodox Church is a very traditional institution and I doubt they would accept a woman as Head of the Imperial Family.
Maria Vladimirovna also enjoys the support of Russian Nobility Association (the most influential of the association of members of Russian nobility), although the support has wavered in recent years.

The Romanov Family Association enjoys support of pretty much all other Nobility Associations (but the one mentioned above), quite a few Monarchist organization, support of all surviving descendants of the Romanov dynasty (with the exception of Maria Vladimirovna and her son) and the Almanac de Gotha. I'd also say the RFA has more support among Russian population, Russian news agencies and Russian Government (although this is a personal view based on personal observations).
Maria Vladimirovna has, of course, met with the Russian President (and made sure to attract a lot of headlines), however so have Prince Nikolai and Prince Dimitri on many occasions – they just don’t like publicizing those meetings that much. :
Prince Nikolai also occupied the position as foremost Family representative when the remains of Nicholas II and his family were interred in St. Petersburg. Indeed, he is usually given a preference during all state-organized events, while Maria Vladimirovna is the preferred family representative during church-organized events (in Russia).


In addition to my previous post, I would like to give some additional reasons why Maria Vladimirovna's claims cannot be recognized:
1) The Pauline Law was already mentioned
2) Russian Succession Laws quite clearly state that anyone who wishes to remain in the line of the succession must be brought up in and marry to a person who belongs to Orthodox Faith. Grand Duke Vladimir (Aleksandrovich) himself belonged to Russian Orthodox Church, however his wife, Maria Pavlovna, belonged to Lutheran Church at the time of the marriage (she did convert to Orthodox Faith in 1908). It's like the Catholic-barring clause in British Succession Laws: you marry a Catholic - you automatically lose your place in the succession line. Similarly, if you married a non-Orthodox, you lost your place in the line of the succession to the Russian Throne.
3) Cyril Vladimirovich further disqualified himself by marrying his first cousin. The laws of Russian Orthodox Church are quite clear on the matter: they do not permit a marriage of first cousins.

There are other sensitive issues:
1) Maria Vladimirovna and her son no longer belong to the Romanov Family: their surname, and the name of the House they belong to, should be Hohenzollern. I know of the announcement made during the time of the marriage, which stipulated that the ‘dynasty’ name will remain unchanged, however I don’t think the announcement had any legal bearing. True, Maria Vladimirovna could retain her maiden surname and her son could take her surname, however they are still members of the Prussian Imperial Family. And even if there were a restoration of Monarchy in Russia tomorrow, there is no way Russians would agree to be 'reigned over' by members of a non-Russian, Prussian dynasty of Hohenzollern.
2) Cyril Vladimirovich was a passive supporter of the Revolution (and some say he, or his mother, played some active part in it as well). He thus betrayed the Emperor. If French Monarchists dispute the right of the Orleans dynasty to the French throne on basis of Egalite's treachery, than the same logic should apply to Cyril Vladimirovich.
Just for note: personally I don’t consider the above point valid or binding (neither incase of the French Royal Family, nor in case of the Russian Imperial Family), however it is certainly a sensitive issue.
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  #157  
Old 08-17-2009, 12:15 AM
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I'd consider myself reasonably well versed with the situation, but I appreciate your insight and observations, as both a Russian and as someone with a good deal of knoweldge to share...

It really is an intruiging set circumstances. Fascinating!
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  #158  
Old 08-17-2009, 08:30 AM
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The reality is the Romanov dynasty's reign ended definitively with Grand Duke Michael's refusal to accept the throne in 1917. At that point, the successor government of the time was invested with the sovereign powers of the Tsar and the monarchy ended.

There are good arguments on both sides on the question of whether Maria Vladimirovna or Nicholas Romanovitch would be the rightful Head of the Imperial House after the death of Vladimir Cyrilovitch in 1992. But there can be no question that both are morganatic under the Pauline Law.

In terms of the Pauline Laws, neither is the rightful successor and the throne would have passed through the female line, not through Maria, but through Vladimir's aunt, HIH Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna to her Orthodox descendants in the Yugoslavian Royal House. Maria married a Hohenzollern prince and her son is a Prussian royal, something that would never be accepted in Russia.

However, it seems reasonable to accept Maria Vladimirovna is, in fact, the Head of the Imperial House of Romanov by virtue of being her father's successor. Whether she would be granted the throne in the event of a restoration is entirely another matter.
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  #159  
Old 08-17-2009, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post

However, it seems reasonable to accept Maria Vladimirovna is, in fact, the Head of the Imperial House of Romanov by virtue of being her father's successor. Whether she would be granted the throne in the event of a restoration is entirely another matter.
This has always been my opinion on the matter.
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  #160  
Old 09-12-2009, 06:31 PM
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When her late father the prince broke the house laws his claims should have ceased.
This does not make sense to me that you broke the law yet you still are able to inherit the headship and pass it along to your daughter who also is not eligible to
inherit the headship.There has to be a distant cousin who followed the house laws
he should be head of the imperial house not someone who broke the laws nor is not the eligible because of one of all laws or all of the laws that were written when the house was reigning.
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