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  #121  
Old 01-31-2009, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Alfred The Great View Post
does anyone know the the estimated wealth of the romanov's before the revolution. also, I wondered, how exactly did the imperial family actually get money as well as the various members of the imperial family.
The imperial family owned virtually every major asset in Russia, including mines, forests, buildings, banks, factories, etc. The assets of the State were the assets of the family, with the nobility and merchant families allowed to share in the wealth as well. Their wealth was in the billions.

Generally, members of the imperial family were given huge allowances by the Tsar, who controlled most of the wealth, but not all. Grand Dukes also owned or controlled certain assets personally, from which they received their cash flow and shared with their families. Women generally owned nothing and were dependent on their fathers or husbands for money, except for their jewels.
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  #122  
Old 02-02-2009, 09:37 PM
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In this scenario, if the Yugoslav line fails succession would fall to the second daughter of Grand Duchess Helen, Princess Elisabeth of Greece, who married Carl Theodor, Count zu Toerring-Jettenbach, the Head of a mediatised House.
So Warren, where does Catherine Oxenberg fall in the scheme of things?
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  #123  
Old 02-03-2009, 03:26 AM
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Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia's sister, Princess Elisabeth, is the mother of Catherine and Christina Oxenburg and of Nicholas Balfour.
Alexander and Elisabeth had an unmarried brother, Prince Nikola, who died at the age of 25 in a car accident near Windsor in 1954.
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  #124  
Old 02-03-2009, 08:41 PM
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Catherine Oxenberg

Warren, think she'd take a role if they made a Hallmark movie out of the Vlad's succession?
Seriously, since they are Yugo, wouldn't it go to Alexander's house first?
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  #125  
Old 02-04-2009, 01:37 PM
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Prince Alexander would be first in-line as the eldest son of Princess Olga and Prince Paul and a devout Orthodox Christian. If his descendants are ruled to be ineligible, then it would pass as described by Warren to other branches.
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  #126  
Old 02-07-2009, 05:04 PM
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Is it true that Romanov Family Laws stated that Grand Dukes of Russia have to marry to women of equal birth, belonging to Royal Families, but these Laws state nothing about the marriages of the Princes of Russia?
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  #127  
Old 02-07-2009, 05:55 PM
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To the best of my knowledge, Tsarevich (i.e., Heir Apparent) and Grand Dukes (younger sons of any tsar) were expected to marry women of equal birth, who belonged to European Royal Houses. Russian Emperors and courtiers used to strictly follow this rule. What do you mean by Princes of Russia?
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  #128  
Old 02-07-2009, 06:17 PM
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Alexander III in 1886 stated that only the children and the paternal grandhildren of the Tsar can bear the title of Grand Duke; the other members of the Family are Princes of Russia; for example, the children of Grand Dukes Sandro and Xenia were Princes of Russia, not Grand Dukes.
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  #129  
Old 02-07-2009, 06:36 PM
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I see ...Well, I was not aware of it. From what I read and heard, Russian royalty and nobility were very keen on maintaining pure bloodlines. Thus, Princes of Russia were expected to follow the aforementioned rule.
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  #130  
Old 02-08-2009, 05:45 AM
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It was changed to the above rule, children and grand children, as the Tsar thought there would be to many Grand Dukes and the cost from the Tsar's funds would be to high hence the rule.
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  #131  
Old 02-08-2009, 11:16 AM
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Alexander III in 1886 stated that only the children and the paternal grandhildren of the Tsar can bear the title of Grand Duke; the other members of the Family are Princes of Russia; for example, the children of Grand Dukes Sandro and Xenia were Princes of Russia, not Grand Dukes.
Ioann Konstantinovich was born a Grand Duke in 1886 but must have been stripped of it soon after. His brother Gavril born in 1887 and all subsequent brothers were princes.

How sad and tragically ironic that Alexander worried about there being so many Romanovs he had to reduce the titles and money of some, and so many ended up dead Grand Dukes were an endangered species. I still think Sandro's kids should be higher up, since their mother was the daughter of the Tsar.
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  #132  
Old 02-08-2009, 12:12 PM
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So my question is: it is true that Romanov Family Laws talk only about the marriages of the Grand Dukes of Russia, and say nothing about the marriages of the Princes of Russia?
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  #133  
Old 02-08-2009, 02:38 PM
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So my question is: it is true that Romanov Family Laws talk only about the marriages of the Grand Dukes of Russia, and say nothing about the marriages of the Princes of Russia?
Here is an article by the author Pieter Broek which covers this question.

Article01
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  #134  
Old 02-09-2009, 09:20 AM
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So my question is: it is true that Romanov Family Laws talk only about the marriages of the Grand Dukes of Russia, and say nothing about the marriages of the Princes of Russia?
The Pauline Law requires Grand Dukes and Princes of Russia to marry equally (to a woman of a royal house) in order for any children to be considered dynasts (within the line of succession).

With the Tsar's permission, a Prince of Russia could marry a woman of good standing who was not necessarily of a royal house (i.e. the Russian nobility). That didn't mean their children were dynasts. They were excluded from the throne and given a lesser title. Grand Dukes of Russia were not allowed to marry morganatically under any circumstances.

The idea behind this was Nicholas II was tired of fighting with his uncles and cousins over morganatic marriages. He made it clear that a Grand Duke should not even think of asking for permission to do so. For Princes of Russia, he was prepared to accept such a marriage for the sake of family harmony, but the wife and children were not members of the imperial family and granted a new style.
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  #135  
Old 02-10-2009, 01:55 PM
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Actually, the Pauline equality laws are farcical in the extreme, when you consider that firstly, Czar Pavel's own great grandmother (Ekaterina I) was born a Lithuanian peasant, and secondly, most of the early Czars, and earlier Grand Princes, married unequally, usually to daughters of boyars who were subjects. Pyotr 'the Great' himself, married firstly a Russian boyar's daughter, then a Lithuanian peasant.

As for the "purity of blood", this is laughable. The present Russian Imperial House is not even Russian, being a branch of the Danish Royal House of Oldenburg descended from a daughter of Pyotr the Great.

Furthermore, many contributors to this forum might be interested to know that many Russian monarchists in Russia don't think much of Maria Vladimirovna or her family, and would prefer to elect a home grown Czar, like they did back in 1613. the Pauline equality laws have resulted in an imperial family with practically no Russian blood at all. Maria's family is historically Danish, while her mother is Georgian, and her son's father a German prince- small wonder then that the Russian monarchist camp is struggling to broaden it's support base.

On the other hand, I have been studying the Rurikovichy Y-DNA programme being conducted by Prof Andrej Bajor. This programme has revealed that a significant number of people can claim biological descent from Russia's first Grand Prince, Rurik. The most prominant family whose Y-DNA signature closely matches the compiled DNA signature of Rurik, is the princely Gagarin family, descended from Grand Prince Vsevolod III via the Princes of Starodub. Another prominant Rurikovichy family is the Lobanov-Rostovsky family who claim descent from Grand Prince Konstantin via the Princes of Rostov (senior to Gagarin). These princes are all living agnates of Czar Ivan 'the terrible". Surely, in the unlikely event of an imperial restoration in Russia, one of these princes should be elected. They are at least truelly Russian?
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  #136  
Old 02-10-2009, 02:38 PM
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Rurik wasn't Russsian. He was a Viking.

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  #137  
Old 02-11-2009, 09:11 AM
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The Romanovs are mainly German, the same as many royal families in Europe. Maria's line is certainly not Danish. Her father was English-German and her mother was Georgian. Her paternal grandparents were primarily German in blood.
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  #138  
Old 02-11-2009, 01:22 PM
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AGRBear & branchg:

You are both right. Rurik was not ethnically Russian, his origins have been identified by DNA analysis as Finnish-Ugrian. He descended from Finnish ancestors who settled in the Swedish province of Uppland. Nevertheless, his family has enough Russian blood in the female line through many Russian marriages to make them sufficiently Russian.

This is not the case with Maria Vladimirovna, who has no recent Russian blood at all going back about 10 generations. Her family is a branch of the Danish royal family which as you rightly point out is German, since Count Christian of Oldenburg & Delmenhorst inherited the Danish crown in 1448?

The point is, back in Russia proper, Maria commands very little support even among Russian monarchists (you are welcome to check the facts out for yourselves). Furthermore in the male dominated world of Russian politics, she has no chance of being accepted even as a republican president. Her main support lies with the exiled Russian nobility, and some more romantic Russian expatriots and diasporan Russians.

In the unlikely, but possible restoration of the Imperial Throne, Russians will not care two hoots about equality laws, they will choose someone who they can firstly identify as Russian, and secondly, someone who can more directly claim descent from Russia's original hereditary rulers. This person would have very limited powers, and will almost certainly be a man.

My personal choice (for what it's worth) would be HH Prince Nicholas Nikolaievitch Gagarin , Ph.D. He has three sons. You can find his photograph and family tree on the Gagarin website www.gagarin.com. He is a direct descendant in the male line of Grand Prince Vsevolod III, ancestor of Ivan "the Terrible", the first of the Grand Princes to call himself "Czar". The Gagarin Y-DNA is also the closest to the compiled Y-DNA signature of Rurik.

I personally have no issue with a Czarina, Catherine "the Great" was a great leader of Russia, but Russia's political class is unlikely to accept a female head of state. Besides, I think a certain element of ruthlessness is required to fill that post, even with limited powers.
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  #139  
Old 02-11-2009, 06:11 PM
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Catherine the great was, also, not Russian.
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  #140  
Old 02-11-2009, 09:28 PM
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Catherine the great was, also, not Russian.
And she was brilliant.
Are the Gagrin's brilliant, by chance? One needs brilliance to be accepted by the Russians. Brilliance of character, of charisma, of intellect, wit. Though were it me, I'd pass the throne by the populance is too fond of assassination. . .
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