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  #261  
Old 08-03-2011, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Grand Duchess Maria's mother belonged to a Royal Family much more ancient than the Romanovs.The marriage was equal and so Grand Duchess Maria is the Head of The Imperial Family.

There are persons who do not like Grand Duchess Maria and try to find pretexts not to recognize her.
A Bagration/Romanov marriage during Imperialist times was not recognized as equal and Royal. End of that discussion.

These are not "pretexts" - these are valid factually based positions.

You merely continue to restate and restate and restate her position without citing specific laws, examples, or facts. I think you are well spoken and well educated, but I am forced to conclude that you are not a credible contributor on this issue. Indeed, you have in the recent past been insulting and abusive to those holding opposite views from yours.

Provide some genuine, documented, truthful, well-sourced and independently verified data and there may be a difference in the debate.
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  #262  
Old 08-03-2011, 07:13 PM
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The Romanovs themselves prefer Nicholas, but if the monarchy were ever restored it would be up to the Russian people to decide.

Exactly; Maria keeps putting on airs as if she is the only one who has any legitimate right to have the throne, the actual Russian CITIZENRY (not subjects) be damned. The other Romanovs actually take that stance and understand they have much to prove, but Maria already advertises her son as Tsarevich and herself as de jure Empress, as if the matter is already settled.

It has been over a hundred years when the Duma was formed (in 1905) and the autocracy ended and it is quickly approaching the one hundred year mark of the murder of the Imperial Family and the beginning of the dark decades of Communism. Since then the Germans have invaded and wrecked Russia and there has been almost a hundred million dead. For Maria to think she can just step in, get a couple of palaces, get a huge pension, is just plain insane. Where has she been for the past so many years while Russia was under the jackboot of Communism?

Russia is as fragile right now as a Faberge egg and can't handle the burden of supporting a pretentious woman and her son. Russia needs rest and support, not a burden of supporting Maria with what little money they have. Russia doesn't have much by way of excess cash and is now only just getting on it's feet. Maria is not entitled to the status or money or any palaces. Russia owes her nothing and I think that fundamentally Prince Nicholas has the right idea of it: "My dear fellow, don't you know, I'm a Republican!" He states that Russia is TIRED and he's right. A restoration in the old form is impractical and impossible and the Russians owe Maria (or any other Romanov) nothing at all.
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  #263  
Old 08-03-2011, 07:44 PM
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Maria does have recognition from the Church and the Government as the Head of the Imperial House, more as a courtesy than anything else, while the other Romanovs also enjoy good relations with the Kremlin. Life goes on.

The throne is never coming back unless it suits the powers-that-be as something that can be manipulated for their benefit. Maria seems willing to be a puppet of Putin and his sinister nationalistic games, while the other Romanovs keep their distance.

Hopefully, George can someday move on with his life without his mother's constant obsession over a non-existent throne that no one cares about anymore.
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  #264  
Old 08-03-2011, 11:49 PM
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I don't see Russia becoming a monarchy again anytime soon nor do I accept Maria Vladimorovna as head of the Russian imperial house and her son George has the heir to this house.This woman needs to wake up and see that no one is interseted in restoring the empire atleast not now.
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  #265  
Old 08-04-2011, 12:16 AM
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I think that good relations iwth the Kremlin is the best the Romanovs could expect and Maria is the only on interested in an official restoration. I don't see the point of an official, taxpayer supported restoration and frankly Maria seems more interested in power than she is over what is in the best interest for the Romanovs as a whole.
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  #266  
Old 08-04-2011, 02:07 AM
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.. well, she is living in a dream-world of her own; Anyone could claim anything in a dream - it doesn't make it real.

In my dreams, I'm young and healthy again .... so what? It doesn't change reality .

She should move on - her time will never come. If there will be a day for a new monarchy in russia - it will most probably be a new dynastie .. maybe with marrying a woman of an old one - to connect to the former ones.
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  #267  
Old 08-04-2011, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AristoCat View Post
For Maria to think she can just step in, get a couple of palaces, get a huge pension, is just plain insane. Where has she been for the past so many years while Russia was under the jackboot of Communism?
Insane it may well be, but have you heard of the recent developments in Montenegro with regard to the Petrovic-Njegos dynasty?
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  #268  
Old 08-04-2011, 08:32 AM
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Russia isn't Montenegro,that is a totally different history.

As for the initial question:It certainly isn't Maria,even tho she tries to pull any trick in and out of the book ,and has many way too blind followers from lalaland...History is not their best point to say the very least and very polite....

She's nothing else but a close thing to a princess,not a Grand Duchessthing at all,nor ever will be,she's the phantom no-one really wants around....
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  #269  
Old 08-04-2011, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
Maria does have recognition from the Church and the Government as the Head of the Imperial House, more as a courtesy than anything else, while the other Romanovs also enjoy good relations with the Kremlin. Life goes on. ...[snipped]
My personal observation is that the Russian government treats every Romanov politely indifferent. They neither show favouritism towards nor ostracise any of the pretenders.
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  #270  
Old 08-04-2011, 03:37 PM
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There are two different issues here:the restoration of Monarchy in Russia (object of another thread) and the rightful Head of the Imperial Family.
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  #271  
Old 08-04-2011, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
Maria does have recognition from the Church and the Government as the Head of the Imperial House...
I wonder what government do you have in mind?
The Russian Federation has never recognized any of the Romanovs' as 'the Head of Something'. Russia is a republic, the government has no jurisdiction to change the form of the state. It's up to Russian citizens to decide, folks.

And (sorry to disappoint you, Cory) M.V. is not "a Head of the Imperial House". The first Romanov was elected by Russian people.
We can elect a new tzar, if we ever have a need in it.
And there may be not only Romanov candidates next time.
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  #272  
Old 08-04-2011, 04:17 PM
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Accordind to the Laws of The Imperial House the heaship is hereditary and not elective.
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  #273  
Old 08-04-2011, 04:31 PM
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Well, yes Cory - but Maria is not the head of the house of Romanov anyway ... it's only her claim ...
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  #274  
Old 08-04-2011, 04:33 PM
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The fact you suppose so does not mean Grand Duchess Maria is not the Head of The Imperial House.
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  #275  
Old 08-04-2011, 04:59 PM
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The fact you believe she is, does not make her claims legal.
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  #276  
Old 08-04-2011, 05:07 PM
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Grand Duchess Maria is the Head of the Imperial House because this is a result of the Laws.The fact her parents' marriage was not equal is rather ridiculous because her mother belonged to the most ancient Royal Family .There was no other male dynast when Grand Duke Vladimir died.So all the objections made by a group of russian aristocrats members of a private organisations (all descendants from morganatic marriages of members of the Imperial Family) are irrelevant.
I do not like Grand Duchess Maria as a person very much but her rights are clear.
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  #277  
Old 08-04-2011, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
...The fact her parents' marriage was not equal is rather ridiculous because her mother belonged to the most ancient Royal Family... her rights are clear.
Her parents marriage was definetely not equal, since the marriage of Princess Tatiana Constantinovna of Russia to Prince Bagration-Mukhransky was not considered equal in 1911 under that Imperial House law, which you are refering to so often.
The Mukhraneli branch was not reigning house in Kartli-Kakhetia/Georgia.
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  #278  
Old 08-04-2011, 05:22 PM
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The branch of the Royal House of Bagration of Georgia to which Grand Duchess Leonida belonged is the senior branch of the Dynasty.During the russian occupation of Georgia the russian authorities didn't want to recognize the history of the country and of its Dynasty.
When the georgian princes and kings of the Bagratid Dynasty began to reign there was not even a united Russia.
I suppose the study made by Brien Purcell horan can help you to understand even this issue:

http://www.riuo.org/RussianImperialS...uccession.html
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  #279  
Old 08-04-2011, 05:53 PM
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Leonida's branch was not regnant over Georgia and had been excluded from the Treaty as retaining royal rank as Princes of Georgia, something that was only guaranteed to King David and his heir. The rest of the family, including cadet branches, were granted the rank of noble princes of the Empire, a status granted by the Tsar to a subject, not an equal.

In 1800, Emperor Paul annexed Georgia and declared the Treaty provisions null and void. The Bagrations never were recognized as royal by subsequent Tsars and they remained Princes inscribed in the Fifth Book of Nobility.

A marriage between a dynast and a Bagration was never equal and Vladimir knew it, which is why he and Leonida, and now Maria, are so aggressive about promoting their line as the sole legitimate heirs.
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  #280  
Old 08-04-2011, 05:58 PM
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I suppose the problem of the marriage of Grand Duke Vladimir( the royal status of the Bagratids for centuries,the way russians treated georgians and Georgian Royal Family) should be studied in the thread dedicated to him and to grand Duchess Leonida.
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