Tsar Nicholas II (1868-1918) and Empress Alexandra Feodorovna (Alix) (1872-1918)

[Russophile]

I don't know that Queen Victoria worried about what Alix might change into so much as Victoria disliked the Russians in general and the Romanovs in particular..

Now isnt' that fascinating as I seem to remember when Alexander II came calling for her hand and Victoria thought him quite dashing.

 

[COUNTESS]

Victoria had a great distaste for Russia. She was very upset when Alix was to be betroved to Nicholas, one of the things she wrote and I quote from King, Kaiser, Tsar, "The State of Russia is so bad, so rotten that any moment something dreadful might happen and though it might not signify to Ella, the wife of the Thronfolger (heir to the throne) is in a most difficult and precarious position." And in private relationships, she thought that "in Germany, where Russia is not liked would produce a separation between our families". She may have found Alexander II dashing, but she knew the backwardness and trouble in Russia and was against this alliance.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Now isnt' that fascinating as I seem to remember when Alexander II came calling for her hand and Victoria thought him quite dashing.

Aah, but Russo my dear, people change and I believe so did Victoria. After Alexander failed to win her hand, the two countries went to war in the Crimea in the 1850s and I believe that is when Victoria began to dislike Russia and its leaders. Queen Victoria and Marie of Edinburgh were not crazy about one another either. I don't think Victoria was fond of Alexander III but she did like Nicky. However, she was very distressed when two of her granddaughters married into the Russian royal family. She implored Victoria of Hesse to dissuade her sisters from marrying into that "wild country."

 

[PrincessKaimi]

The Crimean war was very brutal, a harbinger of things to come.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Hemophilia brought in Rasputin and Rasputin had a hand in turning more Russians against the Imperial family. I don't like to blame Alexandra for all the problems because Nicholas himself could have done some things differently to prevent the revolution.
BTW, something else I read, is that Nicholas insisted that the family remain together no matter what and that insistence had a hand in the family being murdered. I don't remember the exact circumstances; perhaps someone had offered to accept the daughters into their country or something like that.

 

[AristoCat]

Well, I regret that the daughters weren't split up and sent to escape with various other family members. Alexei could have stayed with Alix and Nicholas, but getting the daughters out should have been of the utmost priority.

There was a possibility about Olga marrying King Carol of Romania, but Olga was uninterested with marrying out of Russia, she wanted to marry a Russian.

Hemophilia brought in Rasputin and Rasputin had a hand in turning more Russians against the Imperial family.

It should never have been kept a secret from the public and the rest of the Imperial Family. I am more than sure that if the public had known, there would have been pressure, but the Russians would have sent healers, help, and suchlike that would have rendered Rasputin's influence less than urgent than it really was.

Nicholas and Alexandra might have been in love, but there was a sick dynamic and they enabled the worst in each other, not the best. Nicholas enabled her meddling and her disinterest in society while she enabled his autocratic tendencies and refused to convince him to work with the Duma as a Constitutional monarch. They might have been happy, but in the end their inability to function as monarchs brought each other and the Romanovs down.

 

[Furienna]

It was indeed a shame, that they couldn't let their daughters be saved. The two oldest ones were even old enough to be married at the time.

But I still don't like the hatred for Nicholas and Alexandra, that has occured in this thread lately. Maybe they weren't the perfect emperor and empress, but I don't think everything was their fault.

 

[Lenora]

I think that Nicholas inherited a lot of problems from previous Tsars,it was a country struggling to progress from a feudalistic and agrarian state into new century system.Things in the country reached a point that regardless of what a person he was ,the monarchy was simply doomed,it was one of the saddest moments of Russian history.
I believe George V could have saved them by offering them a sanctuary ,but he was probably afraid that it could put his monarchy in jeopardy.After all,he didn't like so much Alexandra.The Tsar hesitated to escape at a possible moment ,thus he and his family lost their love as martires.The other Romanovs found many places in Europe to emigrate to.

 

[Tsaritsa]

Furienna, I think that "hate" is much too strong a word for MY feelings about N&A as I didn't know them . I do see that between them they made some horrendous choices, but those choices were born out of their own life experiences-amongst other things he watched his mutilated grandfather bleed to death and she lost mother and siblings within days-and whilst I understand that we all have to live with sorrows, thankfully we are not required to rule over a realm where, when the sun rises at one end it is setting at the other. I see no deliberate wickedness in either of them-unlike Stalin or Hitler-and were it possible for them to look back over their reign they might acknowledge that their judgement, on occasions, was poor, and who, of us, could not say the same of ourselves, given the benefit of hindsight?

 

[COUNTESS]

Nice try, but they were part and parcel of the maltreated of minorities, such as the Jews under their reign. Pogroms were running offcially from the government. Expulsions were part of that scene, too.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Nicholas could have at least postponed the revolution by relaxing his death grip on his idea of autonomy.

 

[AristoCat]

Exactly. When Alexander III was reigning, the revolutionaries were in full swing, but by the time the reign of Nicholas came along, things were stabilizing a lot more and for some reason, Nicholas referred to the possibility of democracy as "senseless dreams" and basically declared war on his own people. For a man who was supposedly a major Russophile, he certainly seemed like he hated the Russians who just wanted less of an iron grip and wanted a better life for their children.

 

[Furienna]

Nicholas might not have wanted to become a tsar at first, but when he had to take over the thrown, he also did what he could to be everything, that he thought a tsar should be. But unfortunately, the 20th century came with new ideals, and he didn't see how much Russia needed some changes.

 

[Daria_S]

Another problem with Nikolai was that he wanted to please everyone; his uncles, his wife, his mother, his advisors. According to the books I have read, it appeared to me that he was being pulled in all directions. He tried to be what he though everyone else wanted.

 

[Russophile]

Times were different back then. Even 30 years ago when my mother was diagnosed with cancer nobody talked about it. Wouldn't a thing like haemophilia just get the supersticious Russians up in arms more? Remember they whispered that Alix came to them behind a casket. Then Khlydonka Field happened.
Rasputin was only the last of several crazies that came into N & A's sphere. Remember the crazy French "doctor"? If Rasputin hadn't come in, the void would have been filled by another crazy.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Well gosh you have to admit,even if you don't believe in curses, that the whole Alexandra situation did have a lot of bad things happen. I think she and Nicholas got married soon after Alexander III's death. And then I think it was either their wedding or more likely the coronation that caused the deaths of hundreds of Russian citizens. True if they had told the truth about Alexie's illness it would have just been another notch on the "that horrible German woman" mentality; but possibly things wouldn't have lead to revolution and death. Again hindsight is 20/20.

 

[AristoCat]

Maybe there would have been pressure for Nicholas to break it off with Alexandra, but I wonder if convent life would have been so horrible. There would have been resentment, but really, at what point was this whole thing going to be able to be kept together? Someone insane might have filled the void, but then the Church could have stepped in, or the nobility about have done something or gotten as many specialists as possible.

These crazies only had a hold since Alexandra isolated herself from everyone else.

 

[COUNTESS]

Times were different back then. Even 30 years ago when my mother was diagnosed with cancer nobody talked about it. Wouldn't a thing like haemophilia just get the supersticious Russians up in arms more? Remember they whispered that Alix came to them behind a casket. Then Khlydonka Field happened.
Rasputin was only the last of several crazies that came into N & A's sphere. Remember the crazy French "doctor"? If Rasputin hadn't come in, the void would have been filled by another crazy.

You are right on the mark. Ignorant Russia, lousy genes and strange players. All put together and it was a tradgedy.

 

[PrincessKaimi]

Russian has a distinct history, and has never been easy to rule. Just because the feudal system lasted longer there is no reason to refer to Russians as "ignorant." I suppose the French are "ignorant" because they had several revolutions and thousands guillotined, the British are "ignorant" because they fought American Independence and then colonized India, etc.

It's just not right to refer to Russians as "ignorant."

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I agree, from the little I have read about the country it is very hard to rule because of all the different groups of people; some of whom don't get a long.

 

[Russophile]

It's just not right to refer to Russians as "ignorant."

No, but they certainly are different. Just read Elif Batuman's book "The Possessed". Really describes the complex Russian psyche. Fasinating. They are such a study in polar opposites. Also, I wanted to finish a bio. On Moura Budberg (lover of Gorky and HG Wells) and she was the same. (Somebody called it from the libary so I couldn't finish reading it)

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

This is from the memoirs of Sergei Witte who watched as the royals disembarked from the royal train which carried the body of Alexander III to St. Petersburg:

"Emperor Nichaolas II, still a young man, left the train, followed by two women. Naturally, I was eager to see our future Empress, whom I had never seen before, and mistakenly thought the prettier of the two was she. I was astonished when I was told that the prettier one was her aunt, Princess Alexandra, wife of Edward, Prince of Wales. The young lady who turned out to be our future Empress seemed not only less good-looking , but also less sympathetic than her aunt. Of course, she too was pretty then, and still is, but her mouth always seems to be set in anger."

King, Kaiser, Tsar, p. 167.

I was struck by the similarity to this passage and an essay by Queen Marie of Romania, a cousin of Alexandra's. Marie thought Alexandra, going to her coronation as Nicholas's consort, looked angry at the world also, that she did not look as if she was embracing a new and glorious future but seemed to look as if she was going into battle. It is sad that, from the very start, Alexandra was ill-suited to be Empress and a very public figure.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

There is a recording on youtube of Nicholas' voice. I was struck by how different it sounded from what I had imagined. You always hear about him being so slight and lacking authority like his father, but he certainly had authority in his voice.

 

[AristoCat]

I was struck by the similarity to this passage and an essay by Queen Marie of Romania, a cousin of Alexandra's. Marie thought Alexandra, going to her coronation as Nicholas's consort, looked angry at the world also, that she did not look as if she was embracing a new and glorious future but seemed to look as if she was going into battle. It is sad that, from the very start, Alexandra was ill-suited to be Empress and a very public figure.

I think it was a problem with her for a long time. She wouldn't let herself be happy about her new future role and ruined it for herself. She should have enjoyed Court life instead of harshly judging all and sundry.

 

[IloveCP]

I read on the Empress's wiki that her marriage was "unflawed".I wonder what exactly does that mean.No marriage is perfect.I bet they had their fair share of fights and dissagreements.

 

[Daria_S]

I read on the Empress's wiki that her marriage was "unflawed".I wonder what exactly does that mean.No marriage is perfect.I bet they had their fair share of fights and dissagreements.

Perhaps she viewed it as such because her husband hardly ever fought with her over anything. When one of his advisors asked why he didn't just get rid of Rasputin, Nikolai's answer was something along the lines of 'it's better to have one Rasputin than ten fits of hysteria a day'. However, by the time of the Revolution, Nikolai was going to Stavka for extended periods of time to get away from home. He even noted in some of his diary entries that he was tired. I can imagine Alix saying that her marriage was 'unflawed' when she was the one who called all the shots.

 

[NGalitzine]

I suspect "unflawed" refers to her husband being faithful and not taking mistresses like so many of his cousins and other relatives.

 

[PrincessKaimi]

That wiki needs to be changed - that's not objective encyclopedia language. Sounds like someone edited who was opinionated.

Anyone can change it, it's easy. If "unflawed" means he was faithful - it should say so.

BTW, how does anyone know that? Did she keep really good tabs on him?

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

How does anyone know for sure if Henry VII was faithful to his wife? Or if Alexander was faithful to Maria? I assume there were people around who could judge the character of the men, how much time they spent with their wives and family and if they ever ran off for secret rendezvous' that nobody could explain. There are way to judge and come to a hypothesis without having been in the bedroom.

 

[PrincessKaimi]

Yes, there are ways to judge - but I wonder where those sources are. At any rate, Wikipedia is not the place for speculation or independent research. I suppose I should go edit it, but I'm too lazy tonight.