Tsar Alexander III (1845-1894) and Empress Marie Feodorovna (Dagmar) (1847-1928)

[COUNTESS]

Dagmar was Danish, as we all know. Queen Louise, her mother, used to refer to her daughters, as the"beautiful, the clever and the good. The "beautiful" was Queen Alexandra of England, the "clever" was Dagmar and the "good", was Princess Thyra. Dagmar was clever and knew how to manipulate. Alexander III loved her very much, so, if she had in any way, tried to stem his anti-semitism, he might have listened. But, then, only the very liberal English portion of royalty, such as King Edward VII and his sister Empress Victoria of Germany had any feelings or lack of prejudice for Jews.

[Marengo]

Well, prejudice against jews is one thing, but Alexander III started several pogroms and initiated the May laws (or temporary laws) against jews. Of course Alexander wasn't alone in this, the press and the Russian public supported him, if not pushed him in this direction. I believe Alexander III accused Jews of being behind the assasination of his father btw.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Well, prejudice against jews is one thing, but Alexander III started several pogroms and initiated the May laws (or temporary laws) against jews. Of course Alexander wasn't alone in this, the press and the Russian public supported him, if not pushed him in this direction. I believe Alexander III accused Jews of being behind the assasination of his father btw.

That's what I don't understand about the Russian rulers why they exercised such a military might against the Jews?? The Jewish people didn't do anything to them, until later, weren't many of the revolutionaries Jewish?

[lexi4]

Two words Russo: Religious persecution.

[ysbel]

I think it was part of a general anti-Semtism.

I have also heard that the main criticism against the Grand Duke Mikhail's wife was that she was Jewish. Minnie and Olga refused to meet her.

[lexi4]

It might also be that they refused to meet Natalia Brassova because she was a commoner and twice divorced. That is why Nicholas refused to give Mikhail permission to marry her. For some time the two lived together. In 1910 she gave birth to a son who was named after George. The couple secretly married in 1911. She did escape Russia, but died in poverty.

[Russophile]

I am of the mind it was because she was twice divorced. Peter (Kurth) said that Michael was extremely pliable. Am wondering, with as strong a woman Minnie was and how she loved to dominate her children and their lives, did she view this woman as a threat? And being Jewish just compounded it??

[JPhinala]

She didn't view her as a threat exactly. It was more that the Dowager Empress was extremly serious about the importance of having a non-morganastic dynasty. She took House Law very seriously and was devastated when her children began to break the rules. She had always critisized the other GDs for their children's morganatic marriages and the idea that her own son would do such a thing broke her heart. No where in her journals does it mention her being jewish as the problem. She was so affraid for the dynasty and everyone was throwing her worries and beliefs back in her face. I would've refused to meet her as well.

[Russophile]

that makes sense, thanks!

[Marengo]

Did she ever meet Capt. Kulliovsky (?), GD Olga's husband? I believe 'Little Mother of Russia' wrote that Minny did meet Olga's two sons at Hvidore.

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Did she ever meet Capt. Kulliovsky (?), GD Olga's husband? I believe 'Little Mother of Russia' wrote that Minny did meet Olga's two sons at Hvidore.

Yes, she did meet Nikolai Alexandrovich Kulikovsky. She attended the wedding.

[Russophile]

I thought so. Because they were seeing each other when the war broke out. I believe that was from Ian Liliburn's book.

[COUNTESS]

She, certainly, met Kulikovsky. She criticized other marriages, but received these Grand Duke and their spouses at balls. They were virulent anti-semites and, yes, many of the revoltionaries were Jews. Hatred breeds violence. Except for England, anti semitism was very acceptable.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

Except for England, anti semitism was very acceptable.

This is a complete aside, but wasn't Edwina Ashley descendant from Jewish ancestry? Which tells me it was pretty stupid to be prejudice.

[COUNTESS]

Yes, she was. Her father was Sir Ernest Cassell. He was a friend of Edward VII and was a great financier and helped Edward back to solvency and worth. Queen Victoria took note that her son befriended Jews. It wasn't that there was no anti-semitism in England, but it was not the only way.

[sinuhe]

Icompletly agree. HM AND HRM are the same, even HRM is redundant, diferent is the case HM and HIRM, as in the Emperor of Austria and King of Hungary, adressed as such, or HM, adressed in hungarian soil.

[Warren]

An image of the 1883 Coronation Menu of Alexander III

Coronation Menu Alexander III 28 May 1883
.

[Michael HR]

I agree that it was not that she was Jewish but that she was a commoner and married without permission from the Tsar. Michael was 2nd in line and it matters who he married as Alexis could have died at any time and therfore Michael woudl be 1st in line. It was this I think that was the problem not that she was jewish.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Warren

An image of the 1883 Coronation Menu of Alexander III

Coronation Menu Alexander III 28 May 1883
.

How much does owning something like that run? Or is it like the Harry Winston site: if you have to ask the price you can't afford it??

Is there a translation of what was on the menu?? (This is the foodie in me coming out!)