The Gill Paper: Establishing the Identity of Anna Anderson Manahan

[ysbel]

Discussion:
Establishing the Identity of Anna Anderson Manahan

Mark Stoneking, Terry Melton, Julian Nott, Peter Gill, Colin Kimpton, Rosemary Aliston-Greiner, Kevin Sullivan

Nat Genet 9:9-10, 1995.

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TRF staff recently were able to view the Gill report which is a peer-reviewed report written by the scientists that conducted the mtDNA tests done on tissue samples of Anna Anderson Manahan to test her claims that she was the Grand Duchess Anastasia. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Gill report.

Readers who would like to read the report for themselves should follow this link. The report is available and costs $18 to subscribers of nature.com

Because the contents of this report are not so easily accessible to the general public as other literature, we decided to provide for our readers a short summary of the main points in the report.

Be warned however, that as laymen, we cannot vouch for the accuracy of the report. We can only read the report as layman and provide a summary of the main points in the article for benefit of our readers who may not have read the report. We can note however that the presence of the findings in a peer-reviewed scientific journal does add a generally accepted level of reliability in the report's findings however the fact that a paper has been peer-reviewed and printed in a journal does not guarantee that the report is 100% accurate.

Of course being layman, there may be errors in our summary. Again, this summary is only provided as a courtesy to our readers and should not be taken as evidence in and of itself. Only the original report can do that.

If any member finds errors in this summary, please inform one of the Russian moderators and we will review and revise.

If you have access to the original report, you may quote up to 20% of the original report here at TRF. Because this is a copyrighted work, do not quote more than 20% of the report.

If you would like to refute part or all of the Gill report, it would be helpful to the layperson if you compare apples to apples and cite another peer-reviewed scientific report as your evidence. It would also be helpful if you provide a link and a synopsis of the report as we are doing here for the Gill report.

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Establishing the Identity of Anna Anderson Manahan

Mark Stoneking, Terry Melton, Julian Nott, Peter Gill, Colin Kimpton, Rosemary Aliston-Greiner, Kevin Sullivan

Nat Genet 9:9-10, 1995.
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Summary provided by Russian moderators for the benefit of the TRF community. This summary is only made for the benefit of our readers who may not be able to see the original report and we make no claims with this summary other than the fact that this report appears to fulfill the standard for scientific literature in that it is published in a peer-reviewed scientific publication.

Summary

• Anna Anderson Manahan is the woman who claimed to be Grand Duchess Anastasia, daughter of Nicholas II, Tsar of Russia and Tsarina Alexandra Feodorovna (born Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine).
• She had an operation in 1979 at the Martha Jefferson hospital where part of her intestines were removed and kept in formaldehyde.
• Two DNA samples were taken from Anna Anderson Manahan; one from her intestines from the operation; the other from her hair donated by Susan Burkhart with the assistance of Syd Mandelbaum and Peter Kurth. The samples were badly degraded. mtDNA testing was used.
  Note: mtDNA tests the DNA that is a shorter sequence than regular DNA and is more abundant in the body. The DNA is only inherited from the mother; therefore its important to only compare DNA from persons who might be related from the maternal line.
• The Forensic Science Service (FSS) and the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP) carried out independent tests on Anna Anderson's tissue samples from the hospital in different locations. In addition, the Department of Anthopology of the Pennsylvania State University independently analyzed Anderson's hair samples.
• The two samples (hair and intestine) were a 100% match with each other. (lab's conclusion: they both came from the same person and therefore it is a very high probability that they both came from Anna Anderson Manahan)
• The two samples were a 100% match with Karl Maucher's sample...Karl Maucher was a great nephew of the factory worker Franziska Schanzkowska and related to Franziska through the maternal line (important for mtDNA analysis). (lab conclusion-Karl Maucher and Anna Anderson were related through the maternal line)
  Note: A German detective had come up with evidence in the 1920s about Franziska's disappearance and had first hypothesized that Anna was Franziska. Until this test, there was no independent scientific evidence that Anna and Franziska were the same person.
• The DNA profiles from Anna Anderson and Carl Maucher were checked against a database of DNA sequences from over 300 European Caucasian individuals. Assuming that the databases used are representative of European Caucasians, the chance of finding matching DNA profiles if Carl Maucher and Anna Anderson are unrelated through the maternal line is less than one in 300. (Lab conclusion: Suggests but doesn't prove that Anna Anderson and Franziska Schwanzkowska are the same person)
• The two samples have a 16.7% match with Prince Philip's DNA (1 of 6) and an 83% mismatch with Prince Philip's DNA -
  Note: Prince Philip, duke of Edinburgh, is through his mother, Princess Alice of Battenberg, the grandson of Princess Victoria of Hesse and by Rhine, Grand Duchess Anastasia's maternal aunt and sister of Anastasia's mother, the Tsarina. Prince Philip is related to Anastasia through the maternal line (important for mtDNA analysis) and he is Anastasia's first cousin twice removed.(lab conclusion-Prince Philip and Anna Anderson are not maternally related. In addition the samples were not able to be associated with any maternal relative of the Tsarina, Anastasia's mother, or any maternal relative of Prince Philip. It is known that Prince Philip and Anastasia are maternally related therefore it can be ascertained that Anna was not Anastasia).

 

[Elspeth]

Information about the lead authors:

Mark Stoneking
Mark Stoneking - CV
Mark Stoneking - Publications

Terry Melton
President/CEO Terry Melton

Peter Gill
Biology

Colin Kimpton
Colin Kimpton

Kevin Sullivan
Response to the Romanov case=
Evidence Interpretation

Some resources to explain DNA testing:

NOVA Online | Neanderthals on Trial | Tracing Ancestry with MtDNA
Mitochondria 2
DNA Forensics
Mitochondrial DNA Analysis at the FBI Laboratory by Isenberg and Moore (Forensic Science Communications, July 1999)

 

[Elspeth]

I contacted Dr Stoneking, the lead author of one of the studies, to get his comments about the accusations being made against the reliablity of their methods and results. This was his response:

"Terry Melton and I carried out mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) analysis of
hairs that were purported to be those of Anna Anderson. We found
that the mtDNA sequence from the hair did not match the mtDNA
sequence of a known maternal relative of Anastasia and hence the
hairs could not have come from Anastasia. At the same time, and
completely independently, Peter Gill and his associates carried out
mtDNA analysis of a tissue biopsy specimen purported to be from Anna
Anderson. The mtDNA sequence that they obtained also did not match
that of the known maternal relative of Anastasia, so they also
concluded that the tissue specimen could not have come from
Anastasia. Now, one could of course argue that the hairs and the
tissue specimen did not come from Anna Anderson, but the mtDNA
sequence from the hairs matched the mtDNA sequence from the tissue
specimen, indicating that they most likely came from the same
person. Moreover, as Peter Gill demonstrated, the mtDNA sequence
from the hairs and the tissue specimen also matched the mtDNA
sequence of a maternal relative of Franzisca Schanzkowska. These DNA
tests therefore indicate that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia, and
most likely she was Franzisca Schanzkowska. I would further add that
these sorts of DNA tests are considered highly reliable and are used
routinely in the forensic DNA community."

This response of his shows that there were two independent tests going on: he and Terry Melton were analysing the hair from Anna Anderson, and Peter Gill and his colleagues were analysing the tissue sample. The fact that the results of independent tests were in agreement reinforces the likelihood that the results are reliable; that's fairly standard scientific practice. Also, he makes a distinction between who she was and who she wasn't - he says categorically that she was not Anastasia, but he says there's a high likelihood that she was Franzisca Schankowska, not that she definitely was. mtDNA testing isn't as specific as nuclear DNA testing; it can indicate family relationships, but it can't conclusively identify a person.

 

[ysbel]

Dr. Terry Melton corresponded with me and Anna was Franziska about the test and here were her comments.

Multiple labs got the same results on different tissues (hair/intestinal tissues) at different times. Independent testing such as this is best practice in forensic testing, especially when the results are going to be scrutinized at the level of this case. It is highly unlikely that the same results would be obtained in different labs if the work was shoddy. More likely, the labs would have gotten different results that made no sense compared to each other.

The science that was used is basic, and the methods, while becoming more sensitive and streamlined since the time of the original tests, were and are designed to get at the most basic building blocks of human identity: the DNA sequence. The DNA sequence cannot change when the methods change. There is no more elemental level of inspection.

Conspiracy theories don't worry me. The weight of well-conceived and time-tested protocols carried out by laboratories with impeccable credentials and nothing to gain from either answer are behind all the results, which have been published in scientific, peer-reviewed literature.

In addition Dr. Melton responded to my questions about the possibility of the Maucher and Anderson's samples contaminating each other and about the 1 in 300 probability figure that was derived for Maucher and Anderson being related.

I do not know anything about the Karl Maucher sample. I was not involved with it. However I do know that the Anderson samples and Maucher sample were not tested simultaneously. True cross-contamination (that is, the Maucher sample contaminated the Anderson sample or vice versa, erasing the authentic type in one or the other) is extremely rare: it would require that the samples be tested at the same time on the same lab bench, that one of the types did not show up as a mixture with the other, etc. This did not happen. As you said, the Anderson samples were done first, by different labs getting the same results. This is a very compelling outcome.

As to the frequency estimates, the profile that is shared by Anderson and Maucher is fairly rare in Europeans. This requires us to keep in mind that for mitochondrial DNA the frequency estimates of various types never approach the rarity of nuclear DNA profiles (for example, numbers like 1 in a billion or less). What the estimate is saying is that, on average, you would expect 1 in 300 unrelated Europeans to have this type, while 299 individuals (chosen randomly) would not. The operative phrase is "on average" as you could choose the second person with the type right away, or not until, for example, 1000 people had been chosen. But, on average, about 1 in 300 individuals would have it. Therefore this is quite helpful because we know that it is not a type that occurs particularly frequently.

One would have to then ask: what is the chance that after we have the Anderson profile established, we just happen to find a type in Maucher that is the same? A priori, any randomly chosen person would not be expected to have that type but in 1 out of 300 picks (on average). This certainly points to (suggests) Maucher as having a possible maternal connection, since he was a candidate and not randomly chosen.

 

[ChatNoir]

As Peter Gill said: If one accepts this tissue sample as coming from Anna Anderson, it is almost impossible that she was Anastasia.

And that is the problem: Until there is absolutely no doubt that the tissue actually came from Anna Anderson, there can be no legal decision that she was NOT Anastasia.

 

[lexi4]

As Peter Gill said: If one accepts this tissue sample as coming from Anna Anderson, it is almost impossible that she was Anastasia.

And that is the problem: Until there is absolutely no doubt that the tissue actually came from Anna Anderson, there can be no legal decision that she was NOT Anastasia.

That has always been the question. Many of us have seen the Gill report, talked to the authors (they aren't that inaccessible) etc. But since Martha Jefferson hospital originally said they had no sample form Anna Anderson and later produced that sample, there has always been questions. This really isn't about the accuracy of the DNA tests as much as it is the issue of the tissue sample.
Lexi

 

[AGRBear]

I have always assumed that Drs. Gill, Ginther and the others accurately tested the samples they received. After saying this, I will admit that am not convinced that AA was FS.

If AA was not FS, I think there is a logical explanation as to why AA mtDNA seems to match Karl Maucher's. One can use the 1 in 300 mark or the term "coincidence".

The reason I think AA might not be FS is commonly known, however for those who do not know, I'll repeat some of the points:
....1. In testimony in AA's trial, the Wingenders recall that FS was taller than both of them. They were five three, if I remember correctly. I've heard two figures of height established for FS. One was five feet four and five feet six inches tall. Both heights are more than two and a half inches taller than AA.

When I copied a photo of AA and FS and drew from the points of their chins, waists they did not match when I made them both the same height. I did this on my site.

Another time, on AP, I drew from AA and FS faces various points, eyes, ears, nose and chin and they did not match.

The doctors at Daldorf reported that AA was just under five feet 2 inches tall.

....2. The injuries reports by the doctors at Daldorf tell us that the injuries and scars were old and not recent. She had a grove on the side of her head, marks on her fingers and foot which some believed were scars from a bayonet. Apparently it was believed that AA had suffered a broken jaw which was healed.

If AA was part of some kind of conspiracy and someone had caused the scaring, it would have occured after July of 1918 since no one knew before then that the Russian Royal Family would be executed and atleast a year before AA jumped into the canal in Feb 1920.

Some believe the scaring came from the grenade explosion in the AEG factory which killed FS's foreman. According to the reports by the AEG doctors, FS had not suffered any injuries. I believe Gertrude mentioned that FS suffered a headache...

FS was working not far from her mother's house in a bottle factory and was able to visit her family for Christmas of Dec. 1919. No one noticed that she looked different. Surly one of them would have noticed she had had a broken jaw. She then went to work in aspargus fields.

It is reported that the nurses noticed AA's hands when she came to them. They tell us that AA's hands were clean, soft and without calcuses.

....3. As far as we know, FS was never pregnant. The doctors and Daldorf reported that AA had given birth and then changed her name on their records from a "Miss" to a "Mrs" Unknown.

....4. According to Grossmann's trial in Aug of 1921, he was convicted of having killed three (the court did not chose to state many others had been his victim) women, one of which was FS whom they believed killed FS on 13 Aug 1920. Grossmann evidently had a diary in which he wrote the names of some of his victims. Because he was German, he wrote the name as it sounded to him and did not spell FS's last name correctly.

His arrest was three weeks later.

The Berlin papers carried a great many articles about Grossmann, a serial killer, who was believed to have murdered 50 women.

One of the last three women was thought to be FS so her name was in the papers.

At this same time, over at Daldorf, AA had been held since Feb. of 1920.

Which leads me to my next point.

....5. AA jumped into the Berlin canal at nine o'clock in the evening on 17 Feb 1920. The Wingender reported several weeks later, I think it was about 9 March 1920 that AA had failed to return to her room.

Yes, it's true that a Hessian policeman wrote a note on a report in the 1940s, I believe, that it was proven that AA was FS but there was no evidence of proof attached. So, no one has any idea why the policeman wrote AA was FS.

....6. There is, also, the questions about birthday card which FS sent to her brother Felix. She wrote in it that she was sorry that she was sending it late. His birthday is the 17th of Feb.. The German mail was delivered within one day within the boundaries of Weimer Republic, as Germany was know at that time. I found a whole article on how efficient the Germans were with their mail even when there was problems after WW I. There were very few days where mail was delayed but it is reported the mail was delivered in two days. Mail was delivered within Berlin on the same day, Felix received his birthday card a week later.

....7. From what I understand, FS did not suffer from any kind of foot deformity as did AA and GD Anastasia. The reason we know this is because Felix told us that he and FS had pretty feet and as siblings often time do, they compared their feet, and, he seem positive of this fact.

....8. No one recalls the color of FS's eyes. But no one forgot the color the AA's eyes.

....9. When looking at FS's body in the one photo which is said to be FS, she seems in be older than AA. Plus, she seem to have a fuller figure, especially her breasts.

....10. The comparison of languages is far to complex and needs it's own thread, if there isn't one already.

....11. Size of feet was established during AA's court trial. FS's shoe size was several times larger than AA's shoe size. I kept forgetting who but I believe it was FS's family who supplied FS's shoes.

12. Felix signed a document which stated that AA was not his sister.

13. After the longest civil court trial in German history, no one proved that AA was FS because if they had, AA would not have been given permission to go back to court and restart the process of proving she was GD Anastasia.

---

As far as I'm concern, the evidence should prove AA was FS, but, it doesn't. Why doesn't the rest of the facts match? Maybe, AA wasn't FS.

And, let me repeat this, I don't think Drs Gill, Ginther and the others messed up in their DNA/mtDNA findings from the samples they received. Therefore, I have never challenged their findings.

So, at this time, I can't come to the conclusion that AA was FS, because the evidence just doesn't prove AA and FS are the same person. Maybe, this was one of those coincidences which produces a match or this was one of those times the first one out of 300 was a match with Karl Maucher. Remember, it happen to Sykes, who discovered he and Nicholas II had a common ancester.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

ysbel wrote:

>> The two samples were a 100% match with Karl Maucher's sample...Karl Maucher was a great nephew of the factory worker Franziska Schanzkowska and related to Franziska through the maternal line (important for mtDNA analysis). (lab conclusion-Karl Maucher and Anna Anderson were related through the maternal line)<<

Although most posters assume that Karl Maucher was the great nephew of FS, there is the small problem of proving his grandmother, Gertrude, was the daughter of FS's parents because no one can find a birth certificate or a baptismal record which states she was the daugther of Anton S. and his second wife.

Even though Gertrude was raised as a sibling of FS, this does not mean she was.

Upon what do I base this SPECULATION? I have been doing my family genealogy since the 1970s. And, I couldn't even begin to tell you how many times I've discovered that a person who thought they were a child of the two adults who raised them were not their natural parents. The reason being before the 1930s the death rates were huge due to the lack of medical knowledge. Infants and young children were taken into families and many times no one ever bothered to tell the child they'd been adopted. Often times, if a person does find out, it's usually around the time of a death and the person is told that he/she will not inherit land or money because he/she isn't a sibling but an "outsider". (Greed can bring out the worst in people.) Sometimes, a person never finds out the truth.

DNA/mtDNA could have been established with other members of FS' family because all of the other children of Anton S. and his second wife have their births recorded. They, however, have refused, atleast that is what I understand, to be tested.

Until there is some kind of record found or testing of other siblings descendants, we'll never know if Gertrude was FS' sister. At this time, we can only assume that their common ancestor was FS's mother or FS' grandmother or her great grandmother or her 10th great grandmother....



AGRBear

 

[ChatNoir]

I have always assumed that Drs. Gill, Ginther and the others accurately tested the samples they received. After saying this, I will admit that am not convinced that AA was FS.

If AA was not FS, I think there is a logical explanation as to why AA mtDNA seems to match Karl Maucher's. One can use the 1 in 300 mark or the term "coincidence".

The reason I think AA might not be FS is commonly known, however for those who do not know, I'll repeat some of the points:
....1. In testimony in AA's trial, the Wingenders recall that FS was taller than both of them. They were five three, if I remember correctly. I've heard two figures of height established for FS. One was five feet four and five feet six inches tall. Both heights are more than two and a half inches taller than AA.

The foreman at the AEG also remembered FS as being about 5'4" tall.

....2. The injuries reports by the doctors at Daldorf tell us that the injuries and scars were old and not recent. She had a grove on the side of her head, marks on her fingers and foot which some believed were scars from a bayonet. Apparently it was believed that AA had suffered a broken jaw which was healed.

According to Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann, X-rays showed fractures of both the upper and lower jaw.

FS was working not far from her mother's house in a bottle factory and was able to visit her family for Christmas of Dec. 1919. No one noticed that she looked different. Surly one of them would have noticed she had had a broken jaw. She then went to work in aspargus fields.

In the bottle-washing factory, FS sustained a cut under the nail of her RIGHT ring finger and carried a scar aftewords. Her finger was also a little stiff from the accident. AA had a cut at the root of her LEFT middle finger and suffered stiffness of same finger

....5. AA jumped into the Berlin canal at nine o'clock in the evening on 17 Feb 1920. The Wingender reported several weeks later, I think it was about 9 March 1920 that AA had failed to return to her room.

The "Abmeldung" from March 9. 1920 has never surfaced. The only thing we know for sure is that Frau Wingender "sometime in March" wrote to FS's family to tell them that FS had disappeared. The family contacted the Berlin Police, who did not have a missing report on her.

Yes, it's true that a Hessian policeman wrote a note on a report in the 1940s, I believe, that it was proven that AA was FS but there was no evidence of proof attached. So, no one has any idea why the policeman wrote AA was FS.

I believe that "identification" was dictated from Darmstadt much earlier.

....6. There is, also, the questions about birthday card which FS sent to her brother Felix. She wrote in it that she was sorry that she was sending it late. His birthday is the 17th of Feb.. The German mail was delivered within one day within the boundaries of Weimer Republic, as Germany was know at that time. I found a whole article on how efficient the Germans were with their mail even when there was problems after WW I. There were very few days where mail was delayed but it is reported the mail was delivered in two days. Mail was delivered within Berlin on the same day, Felix received his birthday card a week later.

According to Felix, the card was between 8 and 12 days late.

....11. Size of feet was established during AA's court trial. FS's shoe size was several times larger than AA's shoe size. I kept forgetting who but I believe it was FS's family who supplied FS's shoes.

No, there were no shoes involved. Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann sent a friend to talk with FS's family, and she thus found out that FS wore shoe size 39, while AA used size 36.

ChatNoir

 

[AGRBear]

Thanks Chat for revising my post.

I don't know why I never remember accurately the facts around the shoe size.

I thought the Hessian policeman's report was in the early 1940s. Do you remember when? 1930s? 1934, maybe?? And, you think it was a policeman in Darmstadt not Hesse. I thought the investigation started in Darmstadt and then everything, all the records and everything, was sent to Hesse. And it was the Hessian policeman, not the detective in Darmstadt, who was said to have reported that AA was FS. Gosh oh gee, do I have some fiction book stuff mixed up with facts. Sorry everyone. I'll blame it on having a senior moment or two or three.

AGRBear

PS Please see below Bear's rewrite.

PSS And Lucien will also correct this post: Darmstadt is in Hesse.

PSS I should have said the records were transferred from Berlin to Darmstadt/Hesse, which is, now, part (Landau=state) in Germany

 

[lucien]

Thanks Chat for revising my post.

I don't know why I never remember accurately the facts around the shoe size.

I thought the Hessian policeman's report was in the early 1940s. Do you remember when? 1930s? 1934, maybe?? And, you think it was a policeman in Darmstadt not Hesse. I thought the investigation started in Darmstadt and then everything, all the records and everything, was sent to Hesse. And it was the Hessian policeman, not the detective in Darmstadt, who was said to have reported that AA was FS. Gosh oh gee, do I have some fiction book stuff mixed up with facts. Sorry everyone. I'll blame it on having a senior moment or two or three.

AGRBear

Darmstadt is in Hessen,AGR Bear senior.Always has been.

 

[AGRBear]

Darmstadt is in Hessen,AGR Bear senior.

Of course Darmstadt is in Hesse. I knew that yesterday and last year and a long time before my senior moments today...

Bear's rewrite:

>> I thought the Hessian policeman's report was in the early 1940s. Do you remember when? 1930s? 1934... maybe?? Was it when AA's lawyer entered into the picture when all the records for AA were sent to Hesse? And, I'm pretty sure I'm right that it was the Hessen policeman, not the detective/detectives in Berlin, who was said to have reported that AA was FS.

And why the records were sent to Hesse is puzzeling since the Central District Court in Berlin was dealing with the petition of Countess Brassova and the other Romanovs. <<

I'd better sign off for today before I have another laspe.

AGRBear

 

[ChatNoir]

Hi Bear,
I am referring to Peter Kurth's book where he says that: "Harriet von Rathlef sent Fritz Schuricht down to police headquarters in the spring of 1927 and found that the police did indeed regard Anastasia's case as closed, but not because they knew any more about it than he did. On the contrary, their colleagues in Darmstadt had written to inform them that the "unmasking" was a fact."

The Darmstadt police explained that they had not established the identity of AA, that "fact" was announced by count Hardenberg who had the "proof" from detective Knopf, ostensibly working for the Nachtausgabe. Grand Duke Andrew later found out that Knopf was hired by Darmstadt and not the Nachtausgabe.

ChatNoir

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Of course Darmstadt is in Hesse. I knew that yesterday and last year and a long time before my senior moments today...

Bear's rewrite:

>> I thought the Hessian policeman's report was in the early 1940s. Do you remember when? 1930s? 1934... maybe?? Was it when AA's lawyer entered into the picture when all the records for AA were sent to Hesse? And, I'm pretty sure I'm right that it was the Hessen policeman, not the detective/detectives in Berlin, who was said to have reported that AA was FS.

And why the records were sent to Hesse is puzzeling since the Central District Court in Berlin was dealing with the petition of Countess Brassova and the other Romanovs. <<

I'd better sign off for today before I have another laspe.

AGRBear

What do you mean by Hesse? Hesse is a whole county, no a singular place? Where in Hesse did they send it?

 

[lucien]

What do you mean by Hesse? Hesse is a whole county, no a singular place? Where in Hesse did they send it?

Darmstadt.

 

[AGRBear]

Count Kuno Hardenburg was Grand Marshall of the Hessen Court.

The Grand Duke of Hesse was Ernst Ludwig of Hesse, the brother of Tsarina Alexandra and part of the same petition seeking the inheritiance of the Russian Royal Family.

>>....Both sides in the battle for Anna's identity have been so acrimonious that families have become dividied over the question, blighting both the hopes of Anna's devoted supporters that she be recongized, while strengthening the resolve of her opponents.<< p. 101 THE QUEST FOR ANASTASIA by Klier and Mingay.

Many believe that GD Ernst Ludwig of Hesse, who never came face to face with "Frau Tschaikovsky" [Anna Anderson], became her devoted enemy when "...Anna's assertion that Grand Duke Ernst had made a secret trip to Russia" during WW I. p 100 THE QUEST FOR ANASTASIA by Klier and Mingay. This resulted in Hardenburg in taking action about AA and her claim.

ChatNoir:

>>...detective Knopf, ostensibly working for the Nachtausgabe <<, which was a German newspaper, was hired.

To explain the political importance of this time period, Peter Kurth wrote in his book ANATASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON p. 168:

>>In May of 1927 Mrs. Agatha Grabisch, a representative of the Hearst Syndiate, was sent by Frau von Rathlef to the Scherl Press to spy on Friz Lucke, the chronicler of the "unmasking" operation. Under the pretext of negotiating American rights to the story<< [of Anna Anderson's] >> Mrs. Grabisch was able to find out a good deal

"We do not care about making it hard for this girl," Lucke told Mrs Grabisch, "With us it is a matter of politics. The Grand Duke of Hesse and [Grand Duke] Kyril and the Nachtausgabe are interested all together. And it is a matter of one politial group against another. Grand Duke Nicholas, Grand Duke Andrew, and the Duke of Leuchtenberg are in combination to advance the girl's claims, and this is opposed to Kyril's claim to the tsardom."<<

Farther down the page Kurth tells us there is a third group:
Mrs. Grabisch continued: >>"Yes, and there is a third group who think that the tsar and his family were never killed at all. The Dowagar Empress in Copenhagen is one of these." <<

Kurth continued farther down the page and this will add more information to what ChatNoir posted above:

>>.."The Anastasia Affair," Fritz Lucke admitted later on, "was taboo for the police." And so it appears to have been until the scandal of the "unmasking" more or less demanded a response. When Harriet von Rathlef sent Fritz Schuricht, a private detective down to down to the police headquarters in the spring of 1927, Schuricht found thtat the police did indeed regard Anastasi's case as closed, but not because they knew any more about it than he did. On the contrary, their colleagues in Darmstadt<< [Hesse]>>had written to inform them the "unmasking" was a fact. As matters stood, however, no one was willing to take the responsibility. "We did not establish the identity," the police in Darmstadt were quick to explain. "We did not take part in the work of the identification As we have been informed today by the manager [Count Hardenbuerg] of the estate of the former Grand Duke of Hess the name of Schanzkowska was asertained by a detective for the Berliner Natchtausgabe. " And it was detective Martin Knopf, in truth, ostensibley working for the Nachtausgabe and no one else who informed the Berlin police on April 8, 1927, that Anastasia's idenity with Franziska had been established beyond all doubt and that "concerned prinley houses are interested in exposing her officially." Said Grand Duke Andrew: "It is now known that the detetive was hired by Darmstadt and not by the Nachtausgabe. The newpaper simply printed matieral he gathered." <<

Over on p. 172 Kurth gives us more information:

Lucke had told Duchess of Leuchtenberg the following:

>>..the Scherl Press had received from the Grand Duke of Hess for its researches into the affiar of 'Anastasia' the sum of 20,000 marks << [maybe it was 25,000, The Duchess of Leuchtengerg was sure it was one or the other].


AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

Since I'm on a roll here. Let me turn to page 169 of Peter Kurth's book:

>>At a second conversation a few days later Mrs. Grabisch and Fritz Lucke talked about the rights and permissions. Mrs. Grabisch wanted to know if the Hearst Syndicate would have any difficulty reprinting the photographs and other original material published in the Nachtausgabe, and Lucke said no, he didn't think so. The Scherl Press had purchase everything the Nachtausgabe printed: "He said that Scherl had paid Gilliard...$100 for a single picture of importance." Then there was the one and only photograph of Franziska Schanzkowska, taken, Lucke said, when Franziska was sixteen. "It had been heavily retouched," said Mrs. Grabisch. "The Chinese white on the light parts was thick; the mouth had been retouched thickly almost to the point of excrustation, so that the mouth appeared heavy and wide." <<

What has all of this to do with Dr. Gill's report? Most of us agree that Dr. Gill did exactly as he was asked to do with the sample he was given. He tested it and went a step farther and gained not just the DNA but the mtDNA as well. Same is true with Dr. Ginther and all the others. So, why doesn't the rest of the evidence give us the same results? I really don't know. And, this is why I'm sitting on the fense and still trying to make up my mind about AA being FS or not being FS.

AGRBear

 

[Jo of Palatine]

And, this is why I'm sitting on the fense and still trying to make up my mind about AA being FS or not being FS.

AGRBear

Believe me whoever she was, she was not Schanzkowska. There is no way a girl with the characteristics described by people who knew her (not very intellectual but willing to work the asparagus fields, loving her brother) would be able to fool High Society and stop having contact with the rest of her family when she was not successful in establishing her claim. IMHO, of course, but the idea that a Franziska Schanzkowska could fool so many people simply bgóggles the mind.

 

[Russophile]

Indeed Jo! And the debate goes on!

 

[AGRBear]

Believe me whoever she was, she was not Schanzkowska. There is no way a girl with the characteristics described by people who knew her (not very intellectual but willing to work the asparagus fields, loving her brother) would be able to fool High Society and stop having contact with the rest of her family when she was not successful in establishing her claim. IMHO, of course, but the idea that a Franziska Schanzkowska could fool so many people simply bgóggles the mind.

How many of you think it's possible that if FS or someone else from the same social status, who was part of a conspiracy and had been coached by someone like Henry Higgins [My Fair Lady] from July 1918 to Feb. of 1920 in all the habbits and manners of being royal, and who clever and bright, could fool other royals and other people in High Society?

I don't think it fair to represent FS as "not very intellectual". How about if we say FS was bright and a quick learner. From what I understand she had been able to go to the higher level of education which the other siblings in her family did not. Although she was there just a few months and left (no one knows the reason why she left), tells us that FS wasn't a dumb. Most villagers attended classes that took them to school until they were eleven or tweleve. that would be 6th grade. I believe, FS attended 7th and 8th and a few months of 9th, which is a step into what we have here in the US called High School. And, according to her brother, she spoke "good German".

Evidently, FS's life didn't carry her into any kind of work which used a great deal of intellect. At that time period, I'm not sure there were any jobs in Berlin for a woman let alone high paying jobs which took intelligence. Her jobs were waitress, house keeper, factory worker in AEG making grenades, a bottle factory and then life seem to turn to lower work, that of a field worker in asparagus... Hours were long and standing on one's feet all day was exhausting. Working in the fields was not only miserable and difficult, it's a real back breaking job.

According to the Wingenders, FS read a great deal, but I'm not sure what this means. If the Wingenders didn't read then their way of thinking, a few books and some magazines might have meant FS read alot.

So, when did FS have time to learn how to be a royal grand duchess? And, who was her teacher? I doubt there were many books in the public library in Berlin which explained how to pretend to be one. Back in 1919 I'm not even sure there were books written about table manners, what to do with all those extra knives, spoons, forks... Even the simple task of how to pick up or not to pick up a napkin wouldn't have been known to FS.

Each generation of royals have their own language among themselves. Certain words, phrases and sentences in French or English or German or Italian fly through a conversation, which cause all sorts of emotions which outsiders wouldn't and couldn't understand.

The so-called "pecking order" is very complex and deeply embeded into a royal who always is aware of where they are on that worldly ladder.

There have been "commoners" who have managed to fit into the royal world but they didn't come straight out of an asparagus field, a canal and an insane asylum.

This is not to insult any "commoners" and their intelligence, cleverness and a drive to better themselves. I am not saying one cannot left themselves up and join high society in todays world. I'm saying back in 1918 and into the 1920s it would have been extremely difficult even with ten Henry Higgins with you 24 hours a day.

I'm not familiar with AA's manners at the table, etc. etc. .... but it does appear from what I read, she seemed to appear a "lady" to the nurses at Dalldorf.... I for one would like to know more about why the nurses and her supporters believed she was not just a lady but one from the highest station, a royal, who was a grand duchess.

AGRBear

 

[Russophile]

Bear, from the web:Serial Killer Georg Karl Grossmannr

Georg Karl Grossmann
The Berlin Butcher

Another post-WWI-German degenerate that made a living selling human flesh. Georg, a horrifying individual, was acquainted with every kind of perversion, even bestiality. A former butcher, after nights of heavy drinking, he would bring prostitutes home, have sex with them, and chop them into pieces. The next day he would peddle their flesh as beef or pork.​

He was arrested in August, 1921, when his landlord summoned the police to his door following a loud altercation. Inside his pad they found a freshly butchered lass ready to be chopped up. They also found evidence of at least three other divvied up girls. The mad butcher laughed when he was given the death sentence and proceeded to hang himself in jail.​

Some believe that one of Georg's victims was Anastasia, the Russian grand duchess who escaped the Bolshevik firing squad and assumed the identity of the Polish peasant girl, Franziska Schamzkovski.​

 

[Russophile]

Bear, another link to a Grossman aritcle.
We might need a different thread or split this one out.
serial killer true crime library * serial killer news * list of serial killers * serial murder * female serial killers * crime scene investigation * tueur en serie * omicidi seriali *
Does anyone know where Grossman's diary is? Or whose hands it landed in?

 

[Warren]

. We might need a different thread or split this one out.

We won't be setting up threads for German serial killers in the Russian Imperial Family forum.

 

[AGRBear]

We have gone astray from Dr. Gill's Paper.

There use to be a link that carried us directly to Dr. Gill's report so all of us could read it. Does anyone have it? Or has it been removed?

For those who'd like to learn more about DNA/mtDNA, I suggest reading Bryan Sykes book THE SEVEN DAUGHTERS OF EVE.

Sykes discovered that he and Tsar Nicholas II have a common ancestor. And this is what he wrote:

p. 76 >>Through I like the odd vodka, I have never considered myself a Romanov, but I couldn't help noticing that my own DNA sequence matched that of Tsar Nicholas II. If we ignore for the moment the minor componet of the Tsar's DNA introduced by heterooplasny as position 169, we both have the notations 126, 294, 296. Our mitochondrial sequences are idential at every single on of the 500 DNA bases. Is this just a coincidence or does it mean that I am connected to the romanovs by the same kind of distant ancestral thread which linked Marie and the Iceman? In short, does it mean the Tsar and I are related? The amazing answer is 'yes'.<<

pps. 77-78>>If two people have exactly the same controle region sequence, their comon ancestor will have lived, on average, some time in the last ten thousand years. The Tsar and I do have the same control region sequence. So our maternal ancestory, working back through, on my side, my mother...and her mother... and on the Tsar's through his mother,...and her mother...most likley converges on a common ancestor who lived within the last ten thousand years. Not close enough for me to make a realistic claim to the Romanov fortunes, I think.<<

When Sykes was working on the DNA/mtDNA of the Cheddar Man, he found an "exact match" which stretched nine thousand years.

p.184.

>>...Cuthbert, one of the other people who had given a samle during my visit to Longheat, was an exact match. At a stroke he could claim an ancestory which stretched back ten thousand years, making the five-hundred-year pedigree of the Thynn's book..."

And there is more interesting information on the developement of genetics by the man who "solved some of the hottest debates about human origins" (part of a quote from Publishers Weekly on the back cover).

 

[Warren]

For those members who wish to send messages to each other, could you please do so by PM rather than conducting your private conversations in the threads.

thanks,
Warren
Administrator

 

[lexi4]

Bear, from the web:Serial Killer Georg Karl Grossmannr

Georg Karl Grossmann
The Berlin Butcher

Another post-WWI-German degenerate that made a living selling human flesh. Georg, a horrifying individual, was acquainted with every kind of perversion, even bestiality. A former butcher, after nights of heavy drinking, he would bring prostitutes home, have sex with them, and chop them into pieces. The next day he would peddle their flesh as beef or pork.​

He was arrested in August, 1921, when his landlord summoned the police to his door following a loud altercation. Inside his pad they found a freshly butchered lass ready to be chopped up. They also found evidence of at least three other divvied up girls. The mad butcher laughed when he was given the death sentence and proceeded to hang himself in jail.​

Some believe that one of Georg's victims was Anastasia, the Russian grand duchess who escaped the Bolshevik firing squad and assumed the identity of the Polish peasant girl, Franziska Schamzkovski.​

I wonder whatever happened to his diary, any idea?

 

[Elspeth]

We have gone astray from Dr. Gill's Paper.

There use to be a link that carried us directly to Dr. Gill's report so all of us could read it. Does anyone have it? Or has it been removed?

AGRBear

The paper is at the Nature website and is only available to subscribers, so we can't link to it. There's a summary of the paper at the beginning of the thread.