Russian Titles

[Alice Vilghelmina]

Splodger,
not at all:)
The Russian systeme of the titles is very difficult. Espesially there is hard to compare it with the systems of another states.

I maid one mistake: Knjaz"=Prince but it's not equal Hertsog, cause this title I guess came from German/France and it means Cousin/uncle of King/Prince e.t.c. Hertsog could be grandson of the King e.t.c.
In Russia there wasn't such title. All members of the Royal Family were Grand Dukes.
What's about Knjaz'
In old times(long before Russian Empire) Knjaz' was a governor of the principality ( that's why title was transleted as Prince) but since 18 century Knjaz' - just a high level of the aristocracy, but no a member of the royal family.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Alice Vilghelmina

Hertsog, this title I guess came from German/France and it means Cousin/uncle of King/Prince etc. Hertsog could be grandson of the King etc.

Herzog in the German/Austrian scheme of things means Duke (eg of Anhalt, Saxe-Coburg & Gotha etc). Grossherzog is a Grand Duke (eg of Baden, Mecklenburg etc). Fürst is the title for a reigning Prince or former reigning Prince or Head of a Princely House (eg Fürst von und zu Liechtenstein, Fürst von Hohenzollern, Fürst zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg).

For the Russian titles, some people claim that Grand Duke should more accurately be translated as Grand Prince, but it doesn't seem to have the same ring to it; perhaps we're just more accustomed to the term Grand Duke.
.

[Mapple]

I’d like to delve into some details regarding Russian titles here, relying upon the Concise Brockhaus & Efron Encyclopaedia, printed in St Petersburg in 1909.

Velikiy knyaz (Grand Duke)—1) a son of the Emperor, 2) a brother of the Emperor, 3) a son of the Emperor’s son.

Velikaya knyaginya (Grand Duchess)—the Grand Duke’s wife (if she belonged to some ruling house and the marriage was sanctioned by the Emperor).

Velikaya knyazhna (Grand Duchess as well… nothing can be done with that)—1) a daugher of the Emperor, 2) a sister of the Emperor, 3) a daughter of the Emperor’s son.

All three were styled ‘His/Her Imperial Highness.

There was a title of svetleyshiy knyaz (best translated as ‘Serene Prince’, I think) one degree above the plain knyaz. It was given to certain nobles who had managed to please the Emperor very much (or the Empress—indeed, Potemkin was a Serene Prince ). The children of Alexander II from his morganatic marriage also received that title. Their style was ‘His Serene Highness’.

[tiaraprin]

Originally Posted by Warren

Herzog in the German/Austrian scheme of things means Duke (eg of Anhalt, Saxe-Coburg & Gotha etc). Grossherzog is a Grand Duke (eg of Baden, Mecklenburg etc). Fürst is the title for a reigning Prince or former reigning Prince or Head of a Princely House (eg Fürst von und zu Liechtenstein, Fürst von Hohenzollern, Fürst zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg).

For the Russian titles, some people claim that Grand Duke should more accurately be translated as Grand Prince, but it doesn't seem to have the same ring to it; perhaps we're just more accustomed to the term Grand Duke.
.

GrossHerzog is Grand Duke in German, is it not?

[Mapple]

Originally Posted by tiaraprin

GrossHerzog is Grand Duke in German, is it not?

Yes... but, I think, it is the title of Erzherzog that corresponds to Russian Velikiy knyaz best; not as a translation, of course.

[Royal Fan]

So if Nicholas II Had a Grandson through Alexei what would the babys title be

[Mapple]

Originally Posted by Royal Fan

So if Nicholas II Had a Grandson through Alexei what would the babys title be

Velikiy knyaz (the Grand Duke) with the style of 'His Imperial Highness'.

[Royal Fan]

even if NII Was still alive say hes 60 and his is 24 and Alexei has a son named Igor

[Mapple]

Originally Posted by Royal Fan

even if NII Was still alive say hes 60 and his is 24 and Alexei has a son named Igor

Any son of the Emperor's son was titled 'Grand Duke'.

P.S. Igor was an uncommon name for Romanov.

[Royal Fan]

oh thank you but didnt Alexei have a cousin named Igor who was shot in 1918

[Mapple]

Originally Posted by Royal Fan

oh thank you but didnt Alexei have a cousin named Igor who was shot in 1918

You mean Grand Duke Igor Konstantinovich? Yes, but 'Igor son of Alexei' sounds to me just like 'Nicholas, son of William of Wales'--there is Lord Nicholas Windsor, but 'Nicholas' is an uncommon name for a future king.

[Lady Marmalade]

Thank you Mapple. I wondered about that as well. Some of the titles can be a bit confusing as to how they apply to the next generation.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Mapple

Any son of the Emperor's son was titled 'Grand Duke'.

P.S. Igor was an uncommon name for Romanov.

This was true only if the imperial dynast married equally under the Pauline Laws. If they did not, his wife and children were granted a princely morganatic title, assuming the marriage was honorable, with the style of Serene Highness Princess Romanovsky/Romanovskaya, and were no longer considered dynasts.

[Mapple]

Originally Posted by branchg

This was true only if the imperial dynast married equally under the Pauline Laws. If they did not, his wife and children were granted a princely morganatic title, assuming the marriage was honorable, with the style of Serene Highness Princess Romanovsky/Romanovskaya, and were no longer considered dynasts.

I had in mind an equal marriage, of course--it was inconceivable for the Tsesarevich to marry someone in a morganatic marriage then. The style for the morganatic children that you have mentioned is a little incorrect, though. The morganatic offspring of Emperor Alexander II, for example, was styled 'His/Her Serene Highness Serene Prince/Princess Yurievsky/Yurievskaya'.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Mapple

The morganatic offspring of Emperor Alexander II, for example, was styled 'His/Her Serene Highness Serene Prince/Princess Yurievsky/Yurievskaya'.

This is very Romanov. Everthing overstated and to excess! :)
.

[Mapple]

Originally Posted by Warren

This is very Romanov. Everthing overstated and to excess! :)
.

Indeed. :) In fact, 'His Serenity Most Serene Prince' is the closest thing to the Russian original (Yego Svetlost' Svetleyshiy Knyaz)--but it sounds entirely outlandish in English.

[Elizabeth_Leona]

Originally Posted by tiaraprin

DNA tests were performed on Anna Anderson's body and she was found not to be Grand Duchess Anastasia. It is now truly believed she perished with the rest of the Imperial Family

I believe that it is really Marie's remains that is missing

[Elizabeth_Leona]

Originally Posted by laskaris

Боже, Царя храни!
Сильный, державный
Царствуй во славу, во славу нам,
Царствуй на страх врагам,
Царь православный,
Боже, Царя, Царя храни!

Боже, Царя храни!
Славному долги дни
Дай на земли, дай на земли.
Гордых смирителю,
Слабых хранителю,
Всех утешителю
Все ниспошли.

Праводержавную
Русь Православную
Боже, Царя, Царя храни!
Царство ей стройное,
В силе спокойное,
Все недостойное
Прочь отжени!

О, Провидение,
Благословение
Нам ниспошли, ниспошли нам!
К благу стремление,
Счастье, смирение,
В скорби терпение
Дай на земли!

freetranslation.com....

My God, Tsar store(keep)!
Strong, majestic
Reign in glory, in glory to us,
Reign on fear to enemies,
Tsar orthodox,
My God, Tsar, Tsar store(keep)!
My God, Tsar store(keep)!
Nice(Famous) debts days
Allow on the grounds, allow on the grounds.
Proud смирителю,
Weak to the keeper,
All утешителю
All grant.
Праводержавную
Russia Orthodox
My God, Tsar, Tsar store(keep)!
Empire to it(her) harmonous,
In force quiet,
All unworthy
Away отжени!
About, the Foresight,
Blessing
To us grant, grant to us!
To the blessing aspiration,
Happiness, humility,
In grief patience
Allow on the grounds!

[magnik]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth_Leona

I believe that it is really Marie's remains that is missing

I read about ten years ago and hear (on Discovery?) that Maria and Alexei bodies soldiers used to light the bonfire. After that for many years wasn't known what happen to them and people thinking that they were missing. On early 90. people/explorers discovered what happen with these bodies.

[Leslie2006]

Hey. I'm new here, but I just thought I'd reply to this thread first :)

The title of Tsar was originally used by Ivan the Great (grandfather of Ivan the Terrible), but only occassionally. It was Ivan IV (Terrible) that began using the title regularly and that continued throughout the rest of the his wife's dynasty.

HIM Tsar= Emperor
HIM Tsarina/Tsaritsa= Empress, Emperor's wife
HIH Tsarevitch= Heir to the throne, oldest son
HIH Tsarevna= Heiress Presumtive, daughter (probably if there were no sons and if the salic law was changed)
HIH Grand Duchess= daughter or granddaughter of a tsar through the male line
HIH Grand Duke= second (or other) son or grandson of a tsar through the male line
HH Prince= great-grandson of tsar through the male line
HH Princess= great-granddaughter of tsar through the male line)
Prince of Imperial Blood (I'm not sure what the relation requirement was for that title)