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  #101  
Old 08-15-2015, 03:20 PM
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Given the appalling backwardness, caused by the trauma of the nation by Revolution, civil war [and consequent wholesale murder, privation, expropriation of property and thought control], it is impossible to expect the Russian masses [and anyone currying favour with them] to be anything other than hostile to Human rights [as 'the West'] understands them.
Add that to the resurgence of Orthodox and Evangelical Christianity and Russia is as benighted a country as it ever was..
Anyone with the skills, money or desire for liberal lifestyles has had the wit to leave already.
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  #102  
Old 08-15-2015, 03:46 PM
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Can we leave "... Human rights [as 'the West'] understands them" out the conversation? It sounds Tartuffian and incredibly passé.
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  #103  
Old 08-15-2015, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Royalotta View Post
Which makes the Imperial Family a temporary institution. I believe this is what Putin's goal is and sadly, Maria is too inept to see that she's being played for a fool. Why would Putin hand over any constitutional authority to someone else? Is it not that she would bring with her a legitimacy to his continued regime and the all important backing of the Church? And once she's served her purpose, what then? When Putin is finally forced to step down, what will Maria do? If she's only thinking as far as next year, perhaps it would be better for her to concentrate on doing something practical rather than throwing her lot in with a man many regard as the biggest threat to peace in Europe.
She has not said she is going back under Putin, so there is no proof yet she is inept and doesn't see it as a bad plan. If and when she does that, then you can judge her on it. If she does do that it then yes could turn out like Greece with the royals being a temporary institution or worse. Russian politicians say there is an offer, that's it.

She has not praised Putin. Like I said before, she backed the efforts of the Crimean and Transnistria people and governments for self-determination and called what happened in Ukraine a coup. None see it as an annexation. Just because Maria and Putin see eye to eye on this does not mean they are backing each other. Would you say it the opposite way and call Putin a monarchist and supporter of Maria because he like Maria supports Crimea's self-determination and desire to return to Russia? The case can be made she asserted herself first by the way she has been over the years visiting Russians and Russian palaces in Crimea as their would-be Tsarina. There are subjects you can agree with regarding any politician, but that doesn't mean you outright support them especially when you don't even bring them up in the conversation. Most Russians support Crimea's self-determination and right to join Russia.

She sees the situation like Kosovo. No one is saying that supporting Kosovo's self-determination and right to join Albania doesn't mean you are a supporter of the present Albanian government.

She also does not consider this to be involving herself in politics, but voicing her opinion. Others would disagree on that concerning the Ukraine coup and the rallying the royal support parts. But she hasn't aligned herself too closely with Putin. You seem to be associating her with Putin just so that you can attack her for it. If she does return to Russia under Putin then you can judge.

Maria Quote from the link below:

'Neither I nor my son, Grand Duke George of Russia, involve ourselves in politics. That is the permanent and fundamental position of the Russian Imperial House. We have, of course, our own views on events of the day, and we reserve the right to express those views, as is the right of any citizen. But we do not take part in politics of any kind. Our goal is to serve the cause of inter-confessional, interethnic, and civil peace; to preserve our country’s historical traditions; and to help the needy as much as we possibly can. I hope that everyone understands this and, consequently, will understand that at the present moment it would be inappropriate for me to rush to visit Crimea."

Royal Russia News: Grand Duchess Maria: Russia will not give up Crimea despite sanctions
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  #104  
Old 08-15-2015, 04:00 PM
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I would humbly suggest that the idea that Maria and her son do not involve themselves in politics has been proved totally false by her praise for a political leader. But I can see I am in a firm minority. I would also think that human rights are human rights regardless of location and I sincerely hope that in Maria's greed, she isn't willing to sacrifice right over wrong just to get her feet under the table at Livadia. It's a great shame that the Imperial Family under Maria's leadership are set to become pawns of an authoritarian figure but maybe that suits her? And maybe it will suit Russia. Who knows?
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  #105  
Old 08-15-2015, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Royalotta View Post
Personally I like living under the reign of a monarch who I know serves all of her people regardless of sexual orientation, gender or race. Russia could never say that under Maria could they? If she supports Putin on annexation, does her support extend to his brutal oppression of LGBT people?

Maybe she's far better off begging for invitations to King Felipe's court in her plastic tiara after all.
I can assure you: you will be surprised by the extent of gaylife in the big Russian metropoles... It is not allowed to make "progaganda" for a gay lifestyle which is aimed at minors. It is almost a copy from Margaret Thatcher's Clause 28 (Her clause was aimed at "not intentionally promoting homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality or promoting the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship").

All this happened in the United Kingdom until it became repealed in 2003/2004. This Clause 28 did not prevent Manchester, Bristol or London to develop a booming gay area. Likewise the Russian copy of Clause 28 does not prevent such clubs to flourish (Amsterdam can only dream of the extraordinary gay club which is now housed in the fomer Societ Palace of Culture (!) in St Petersburg...).

That does not mean that the Russians do not have a very, very negative attitude on homosexuality but that is a reflex which was -sadly- always there, way before Putin came to power. If Grand-Duchess Maria Vladimirovna has a conservative view on family values, then she shares this -again- with an overwhelming majority of the Russians.

With Margaret Thatcher (who was honoured with a Glorious State Funeral With The Royal Family Attending) in mind, the Britons really are the last ones to fall over Putin's copy of their Clause 28... Especially accepting lavish gifts in diamonds, rubies and whatever from Arab rulers who are not afraid to let torture or death penalties be executed on homosexuals. Something Putin was never blamed for, not even in reports of Amnesty or Human Rights Watch...

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  #106  
Old 08-15-2015, 05:27 PM
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It's not quite the same thing. Section 28 was never actually invoked, there was never a prosecution brought despite the fact that it was breached regularly by good teachers with a moral conscience. Putin's attitude towards LGBT rights can't be likened to Section 28 at all, it really can't. But this is wildly off topic!
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  #107  
Old 08-15-2015, 05:38 PM
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Can we leave "... Human rights [as 'the West'] understands them" out the conversation? It sounds Tartuffian and incredibly passé.
No we cannot since even the most cursory of glances at the state of Russian society reveals it to be the truth.. you cannot understand our attitudes, just as we cannot understand yours...
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  #108  
Old 08-15-2015, 08:15 PM
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One member of the Leningrad Legislative Assembly proposed that the Imperial House of Russia be given some sort of official recognition by the Russian Federation. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna has not, to my knowledge, made any public comment on this proposal. Mr Putin has not, to my knowledge, made any public comment on this proposal. Yet some media outlets, without any evidence whatsoever, completely misrepresented the facts and suddenly we had Mr Putin on the verge of brining back the Tsars.

Upon this entirely beat up story, we now have, as if on cue, the predictable vitriolic comments about Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia. Plastic tiaras, political stooge, Mrs Hohenzollern, pointless life etc. etc. It's all there, with appropriate levels of oh so self-righteous indignation, but without much in the way of verifiable facts. Come in spinner!

In the meantime, Her Imperial Highness, the Pious and August Lady, Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia carries out her duties as Head of the Imperial House of Russia with her usual enthusiasm. She is somewhat eccentric and a bit old fashioned, but that is in keeping with the style set by her father. Above all, she seems to be having a blast. I hear she will be coming back to Australia for a visit in September. In 2007 she stayed at Government House as a guest of the Governor of Victoria, not bad for someone of apparently no standing. Good luck to her, I say.
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  #109  
Old 08-15-2015, 08:51 PM
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With respect, I did not say that the offer had been accepted or endorsed by either Maria or Putin. I was referring to comments made at the time of the annexation of the Crimea and the relations between Maria and Putin before and after that. Whilst you may be a fan of the lady, this is a forum for discussion and debate and it can't simply be a Maria Vladimirovna fan club. She is capable of making mistakes just as we all are. And it's right we draw attention to those.
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  #110  
Old 08-15-2015, 09:39 PM
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Of course it is right to draw attention to mistakes, even those committed by Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia. Perhaps you could do so with verifiable evidence rather than opinion? When has she praised Mr Putin? What exactly did she say about the Prince of Wales? What exactly has she said about Crimea? Take away your adjectives and we are left with very little to reflect upon. This is a forum for discussion and debate and it can't simply be a Maria Vladimirovna ridicule club.
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  #111  
Old 08-16-2015, 07:19 AM
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http://www.imperialhouse.ru/eng/alln...cles/4042.html

The Head of the Imperial House "rebukes" Prince Charles.

I'm sure His Royal Highness was shaking in his boots!
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  #112  
Old 08-16-2015, 09:36 AM
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I see nothing wrong with the statement on the website. The only wrongdoing here was the alleged comparison by the future "impartial" head of state of the United Kingdom who compared the current President of Russia with a man responsible for the industrial extinction of a whole people. Thát alleged remark attributed to the Prince of Wales, was way off the mark, most repulsive and in the end contraproductive.

In my humble opinion this is not exactly an example in how a future constitutional head of state should behave. With this His Royal Highness has lost all credibility to teach Grand-Duchess Maria Vladimirovna a lesson on how to behave constitutionally.

Is His Royal Highness -for an example- aware that the death penalty is de jure under moratorium and de facto abolished in Russia? Does His Royal Highness know that the very last death penalty in the whole of Europe was carried out in Ukraine (1997) and that in the 18 years since then no any death penalty was executed, in no any country in Europe?

Does His Royal Highness know that death penalties are still executed in the United States of America? In Bahrain? In Saudi Arabia? Can we now expect a lecture on that? Oh no, of course not... it is his friend Obama, then he prefers to look the other side. Oh no, of course not... it are his friends the Emirs and the Sheikhs, showering Camilla in diamonds. Then he sticks his head in the desert sand. Jaja...
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  #113  
Old 08-16-2015, 10:49 AM
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So Maria is blameless and excuses will always be made for her?

The role of the Prince of Wales is a complex one. Over the many years Charles has held the position, he has consistently worked for the British people and whilst his private life remains controversial (though heaven knows why) to a minority, there's an understanding that he can speak about some political issues as long as his statements do not contradict the attitudes of the government. This is a right that will be removed the moment he becomes King. But look at the sort of thing Charles talks about. Organic farming, environmental issues, community schemes, interfaith relations....it's hardly akin to sanctioning an illegal expansion into another sovereign nation is it?

His remark about Putin was exactly as you describe....alleged. We aren't sure he actually said it. So for Maria to bark orders at Charles is not only ridiculous but a dramatic over-reaction. If she's so concerned about Russia and it's foreign policy, why doesn't she move there? Ah....because she'll only go there if she's feted as an Empress and if she's paid enough. But she wouldn't be a constitutional Empress as Charles will be a constitutional King. She's made that very plain. If she's so eager to defend Putin personally over this, unprompted and without real justification, she's simply a puppet and what's the point in restoring her to a role she's unqualified for?

Charles may have to undertake foreign trips he may not want to but there's no doubt that he understands foreign policy - and doesn't always toe the line. The Chinese government isn't exactly his biggest fan for example. He's spent his life making visits, meeting heads of state and heads of government. He knows that he can't scribble some grand sounding edict and if he did want to make a public statement on any area of foreign policy, he must ask the government's approval to do so (hence the spider memos) - that's how things are done when a constitution matters.

Maria is younger than him and how has she spent her life? Making demands from a little apartment in Madrid and telling people off for wearing the wrong medals. What does she really bring to the table? You could argue that the situations are very different but they're both heirs to a throne, even if Maria has no chance of ever sitting on hers and Charles won't have to wait long to inherit his.

Instead of cosying up to Putin and whining on about who can call themselves Princes and Grand Dukes etc, wouldn't she be better served worrying about the Russian people, getting among them and trying to do something practical? Clearly her father didn't feel it worth giving her any kind of education, had he done so, she'd know that it isn't her place a) to endorse a republican government, b) to endorse a dictator and c) to bash other royal family members. Can you imagine Princess Beatrix saying that Queen Margrethe was out of line for an action she took? It shows how amateurish Maria really is.
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  #114  
Old 08-16-2015, 11:09 AM
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I feel you fail completely to replace yourself into the position of Maria Vladimirovna and the most difficult circumstances in which she has to manoeuvre. She is the daughter of a Russian father and a Russian mother. Her Russian family has almost been extincted and what remained has been exiled. Great hardship came over most of them and all had to find a new destiny in life.

Given the difficult circumstances (until the collapse of the USSR, the official attitude towards the former imperial, aristocratic and ruling families was hostile, repressive even), her father and Maria have done surprisingly well, when we look to the Romanov case. Maria is not at all destroyed and forgotten but very visible. Instead of criticisms and out-of-place comparisons with someone whom was born with a golden spoon in his mouth (the Prince of Wales) one can also have appreciation for the commitment and the zest Maria Vladimirovna has shown towards her patrimonium, as no any other Romanov. Maria Vladimirovna had to do it all by herself, with even hostilities from family members. The Prince of Wales can rely on a fleet of servile ladies and gentlemen and still can stumble in his life, as history has shown. Maria Vladimirovna, with all her faults, deserves more understanding and empathy.

The situation in which her father Grand-Duke Vladimir and her mother Princess Leonida were, was simply hopeless. Living in exile in the West, cut off from Mother Russia by the Iron Curtain. Look where their daugher is now... well, well, my hat off. She has come from far and she has come a long way. She has still a long way to go. But some recognition, some semi-formal status as the historic dynasty, that will most likely be the maximal result she will achieve. Does she achieve that, than it will be a miracle indeed. Any comparison with the Prince of Wales who even has a valet to give him his tootbrush, is out of place.
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  #115  
Old 08-16-2015, 02:53 PM
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What exactly has she achieved? Cyril was received and feted by Russian monarchists, he lived abroad, he was recognised by the church. The fact that she's been received by the Pope and by Russian officials is nice but let's not assume that's a mark of respect. More likely than not, it was for political ends on the side of those extending the invitation - certainly Putin's courting her for that reason.

The Prince of Wales may have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth but maybe that's because his ancestors knew how to keep their throne. By staying out of politics and doing as they were told.
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  #116  
Old 08-16-2015, 04:13 PM
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The Pope received her for political ends. Do they get invited to weddings like Albert of Monaco's or Felipe of Spain's for political ends? What is the political end of her being the deputy chair of the Gotha? Maria is recognized by the church and she's been feted by the Russians too.

You can look up how she is received on visits.

Hotel “Mergen Bator”Â*-Â*NewsÂ*-Â*The Grand Duchess Romanova Maria Vladimirovna arrived to the capital of Buryatia Republic



Here is a picture of the head of the Russian Orthodox church celebrating mass honouring the 400th anniversary of the Romanovs with Maria. If you google Maria Vladimirovna Patriarch Kirill you will see many more.

Patriarch Kirill conducts Romanov Dynasty 400th anniversary service in St. Petersburg
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  #117  
Old 08-16-2015, 04:45 PM
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Why the Pope chose to receive her is between the Vatican and her but she was clearly invited to Felipe of Spain's wedding because she lives in Spain and had attended court functions before...not as an official representative of Russia, as a courtesy extended by King Juan Carlos.

She has not attended any Spanish Royal events on the invitation of his son. Albert II of Monaco invited many former royals to his wedding and there seems some camaraderie between the defunct royal houses, I'm aware that she has been invited to events in Serbia and Romania. (Though invitations seem to have dropped off since she chose to support Putin so publicly, perhaps because the other heads of defunct royal families disagreed with her?).

I'm well are of how she's received when she travels but I wouldn't expect anything else. She's only ever invited to things where the church (which supports her) or Russian monarchists (ditto) consider her to be an important figure. I doubt if she wandered the streets of St Petersburg the city would come to a standstill.
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  #118  
Old 08-17-2015, 12:51 AM
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The House of Romanoff reproaches Prince Charles for his Putin remark

The Head of the Imperial House "rebukes" Prince Charles.

I'm sure His Royal Highness was shaking in his boots!
Well, that's a start (though I agree with Duc_et_Pair that there is nothing wrong with the statement.) But you still have not shown any evidence whatsoever for all sorts of other exaggerated comments:
  • When did Maria Vladimirovna publicly support Mr Putin?
  • When did Maria Vladimirovna publicly praise Mr Putin?
  • How do you know invitations to royal events have dried up?
  • How do you know Maria Vladimirovna does not want to be a constitutional empress?
  • When has Maria Vladimirovna ever demanded a little apartment?
  • As you clearly know about the education she received from her father, in what way was it lacking?

Nobody has suggested Maria Vladimirovna is blameless, and I am happy to contribute to a debate about some of her questionable choices. I think her visits to some of those funny little republics might be ill advised, but I don't know enough about them to say for sure. I also think she could be more careful in her comments about the remains of Emperor Nicholas II and his family.

But it is not possible to debate such issues with you. All you do is make sweeping generalisations about a woman you clearly dislike. When asked to provide actual evidence to support your accusations, we get sarcastic comments about a Maria Vladimirovna fan club, or Maria Vladimirovna can do no wrong. As you said yourself, this is a forum for debate, and debate involves backing up your claims with verifiable proof.
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  #119  
Old 08-17-2015, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Royalotta View Post
What exactly has she achieved? Cyril was received and feted by Russian monarchists, he lived abroad, he was recognised by the church. The fact that she's been received by the Pope and by Russian officials is nice but let's not assume that's a mark of respect. More likely than not, it was for political ends on the side of those extending the invitation - certainly Putin's courting her for that reason.
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought this implied she was not recognized by the church or monarchists.

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Originally Posted by Royalotta View Post
I'm well are of how she's received when she travels but I wouldn't expect anything else. She's only ever invited to things where the church (which supports her) or Russian monarchists (ditto) consider her to be an important figure. I doubt if she wandered the streets of St Petersburg the city would come to a standstill.
But then you agree she is.

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She has not attended any Spanish Royal events on the invitation of his son. Albert II of Monaco invited many former royals to his wedding and there seems some camaraderie between the defunct royal houses, I'm aware that she has been invited to events in Serbia and Romania. (Though invitations seem to have dropped off since she chose to support Putin so publicly, perhaps because the other heads of defunct royal families disagreed with her?).
So you are also now recognizing her as a member of a defunct royal house.

Grand Duke George Mikhailovich was in Berlin for 70th Anniversary Victory Celebrations recently and he backed up his Mom on Crimea.

He also attended last summer the wedding of Prince Francois d'Orleans and Therese von Einsiedel which took place after both Maria had made their statements on Crimea.

Not many royals attended the Swedish wedding or Casiraghi one so I am not sure what exactly they didn't get an invitation to; could you elaborate? It is often just wedding that have guest lists and who is photographed can be hit and miss. I am assuming Prince Felix of Luxembourg was at the Casiraghi wedding since his wife partially sticks out in the background of pictures and she is on somebody's arm. If they can't get a picture of him then who knows who else they missed. Unless there is a good guest list who knows who attends what, do you?

There also weren't that many at CP Alexander of Serbia's birthday party or maybe there were since they released a small list and there were more in the pictures (maybe she missed the cameras).

What events has Felipe been inviting foreign royals to that they weren't invited to; could you elaborate?. Living in Spain and attending court functions gets you invited to a royal wedding?

There a reigning royals people might not recognize out and about.
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  #120  
Old 08-17-2015, 05:47 AM
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Grand-Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is certainly no outcast as this picture proves.
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