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  #81  
Old 08-03-2008, 04:14 PM
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Lloyd George does not come across very well. If we had fought and sent more troops who knows what may have been the outcome.
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  #82  
Old 08-03-2008, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael HR View Post
Lloyd George does not come across very well. If we had fought and sent more troops who knows what may have been the outcome.
Hindsight is always 20/20 ... but I would not treat him too harsh. He had his reasons and in particular - I believe - he knew that England could not afford another war after the world crisis. Pretty much comparable to Chamberlain some time later ... both were aware that the ressources they had were not endless.
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  #83  
Old 08-03-2008, 07:57 PM
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AGRBear, maybe I have found something concerning a German plot.

Count Mirbach, the German ambassodor, was assassinated early July. The decision to execute the family was made shortly afterwards by Lenin, Sverdlov and the leader of the Uraler Bolschewiki Golo*šče*kin.

In the diaries of Freiherr von Bothmer it says that the German side as tried "certain" things to help the family diplomatically. See Bothmer, S grafom Mirbachom v Moskve, page 107. Also an active role in freeing the family was played by Kurt Riezler who joined Mirbach in Moscow. Obviously he mentioned in July 1918 in a note to Berlin that a considerate handling of the tsarina - a German princess - should be made a precondition. Thus was obviously accepted by Kühlmann who mentioned in his note to free the family. etc. etc.

Found in Boris Chavins essay quoting Zamojskij, L.P.: Povoroty sud’by carskoj semji. Rossija vom 21.5.2004

On a side note: obviously Germany was the sole finance source for the Bolshevic regime. Several notes of Mirbach concerning the financial needs are mentioned.

Reading the whole essay I wonder if the family would have been killed without the plot.

----------------------


That's what you were talking about, isn't it?
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  #84  
Old 08-03-2008, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Odette View Post
The Kaiser was the son of the Princess Royal Victoria who was the daughter of Queen Victoria. The Tsarina was the daughter of Princess Alice (Victoria's sister) who married the GD of Hesse.
The son of Catherine the Great Paul I married Wilhelmina of Hesse Darmstadt and then Marie of Wurtenberg. His son Alexander I married Louisa of Bade.
I believe this is as close to "cousins" as the Kaiser was to Tsar Nicholas.
And Alexander II (*1818, 1855-1881), the eldest son of Nikolaus I (*1796, 1825-1855) was married to Maria Alexandrowna von Hessen-Darmstadt. Her Grand-Grandfather was Louis IX, Landgrave of Hessen-Darmstadt (see: Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) )

Whereas Wilhelms Grand-Grand-Grand-mother (married to Friedrich Wilhelm II) was Friederike von Hessen-Darmstadt, also a daughter of Louis IX ( see Friederike von Hessen-Darmstadt – Wikipedia )

And don't forget that his grandmother Augusta (married to Wilhelm I) was a daughter of Maria Pawlowna Romanova and the father of Augusta was a son of Louise von Hessen-Darmstadt another daughter of Louis IX (see Luise von Hessen-Darmstadt – Wikipedia )

Confused? Hopefully not And here you can find all children of Louis IX:
Louis IX, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though I wonder, if all these family relations qualify for the term "cousin".
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  #85  
Old 08-04-2008, 12:39 PM
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THE FILE ON THE TSAR by Summers and Mangold:


p. 282: On 17 July 1918....two Russian monarachists in exile visited Middleton Edwards in the British Consul in Geneva. They brief him on a German plot to save Nicholas II. Edwards memorandum to his superior in Berene is a document worth mentioning at this point of our conversation, I think.

p. 288: Nicholas II may have been refusing to be saved by the Germans, so, the Germans were going to go in and "kidnap" him and his family even if they were not willing to be rescued by Germans.

p. 285-287: Mirbach had been part of this plot before July and was assassinated.... 6 July... This was the same day the German Count Alvensleben mentioned the plot to General Dolgorukov.

p. 286: General Dolgorukov's words were:
>>..[he] warned us that between 16 July and the 20th rumors would be spread about news of the death of the tsar, and, that this rumor or news should not alarm us; like the rumor of the murder of the tsar, which was current in June, it would be false, but it would be necessary for certain reasons, namely for the tsar's rescue. I well recall that in our talk with him, which took place as I have said on 5 July or 6th, Count Alvensleben indicated as a precise period...<<

p. 286 THE FILE ON THE TSAR: Alvensleben "...warned...between 16 July and the 20th rumors would be spread about the news of the death of the tsar..."

p. 289: >>..it was the same Count Alvensleven who was personally entrusted by the Kaiser with ensuring the safety of the German empress and her children.<<

When the Count died in 1961, he never voiced publicly what he knew and his papers "have been lost".

Your question about the German rescue having been the caused of the Ural Bolshviks being forced to kill Nicholas II and the others is an important one. Summers and Mangold wrote p. 290:

>>...But the German plans to rescue the romanov family clearly gone tragically wrong, leaving the tsar dead and his wife and five children still in Communist hands.<<

Evidently Kaiser Wilhlem II told others that he had been having nightmare about Nicholas II and the others.

p. 289: >>Prince Max of Baden has informed the former Russian diiplomat here that the ex-Emperor of Russia was shot on 16 July. The act was a military execution according to my informat, not an assasination Three months later Gen. Max Baden became chancellor of Germany.

Who was playing who?

We do know that at this same time, Lenin's military were waiting for a secret shipment of guns, which has a rumor attached.

RUMOR: The guns were a payment for turning over Alexandra and her daughters safely to the Germans. But, the guns hadn't arrived by 16 July and it is believed the deaths of the Alexandra and her daughters were not reported on the 17th/18th of July was because Lenin didn't want the Germans to know Yurovsky had "done them in".


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  #86  
Old 08-04-2008, 01:09 PM
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Here is a pedigree chart which shows just how German the Romanovs were:

The Romanov Dynasty *
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  #87  
Old 08-04-2008, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by AGRBear View Post
THE FILE ON THE TSAR by Summers and Mangold:
Thanks a bunch for the immediate reply. Unfortunatly I don't have this one. I doubt that I will find it in our local liberary.

But I tried to find this Count von Alvensleben ... in vain. Do you have a first name? I tried the family website and wikipedia but there was none dying in 1961. Also I could not find the name in my books on Wilhelm II. Therefor, I hesitate to believe that he really was in his entourage. And really I would expect Wilhelm to choose someone close to him for such a task.

The weapons-deal I have never heard of either. Please wait a few days. I have ordered the book on Mirbach. Apart of Amazon, who offers only a USD 300+ something one, I found a site with a far more affordable version . As soon as I have studied it, I will come back.

Have a good day!
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  #88  
Old 08-05-2008, 11:16 AM
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I know for certain there were Counts of Alvensleben because one of them signed documents that recommended one of my ancestors to make the leap from Baron to Count. As for this particular one's first name, I'll have to dig around. He's probably in one of the German Who's Who kinda books. I don't understand why you wouldn't believe his association with Wilhelm II???? Summers and Mangold don't go around making up facts.

Is the book on Mirbach in English? I'd also like to know the title and the author since they were old family friends with my mother's family. They are just one of the many side stories I just haven't had time to delve into.

As for the guns, I'm not sure where I've read all the information but it might have been partly in one of my books about the Krupp Co., probably in books about Sidney Reilly, Ace of Spies.... The key word to look for is Radeck. Sorry, I don't remember exactly, because it was some time ago that I read this so I'll have to give it more thought or see if I can find what I've already written over on AP. Not sure I'll have time today, BECAUSE, I'm looking for tile for the front pieces of the new steps that go to our being built second level.

AGRBear

PS Count Hans Bodo von Alvensleben
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  #89  
Old 08-05-2008, 11:43 AM
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Mirbach's information for those who do not know who he was:

Wilhelm Graf von Mirbach-Harff b. 2 July 1871 – d. 9 July 1918.

#Was a German diplomat from Bad Ischl in Upper Austria.

#Participated in the Russian-German negotiations in Brest-Litovsk from December 1917 to March 1918.

#Appointed German ambassador to Russia in April 1918.



Wilhelm von Mirbach - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can find the following data:

>>Mirbach was assassinated by Yakov Grigorevich Blumkin at the request of the Central Committee of the Left Socialist-Revolutionaries, who tried to incite a war between Russia and Germany. Blumkin entered Mirbach's residence in Moscow using forged papers and shot his victim at point blank range. Mirbach's assassination signaled the beginning of the revolt of the Left Socialist-Revolutionaries in Moscow in 1918.

Mirbach was succeeded as German ambassador to Russia by Karl Helfferich.<<
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  #90  
Old 08-05-2008, 04:58 PM
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AGRBear, the problem is: there are too many Count of Alversleben around, but I could not find one who died 1961. "Graf" is in Germany part of the name and given to all children, not only the oldest. Therefor you have plenty of them running around and making a life.

Believing - well, I could not find him in the books I have on Wilhelm II. I searched the registers immediatly when I could not find an Alversleben with death in 1961, but to no avail. That's why I started to wonder.

I am sure Summers and Mangold did not make up anything - I just couldn't find the right Alversleben - that is all. As soon as I have the first name it will hopefully be easier. No reason to get exited.

One of the books I ordered arrived today: "Verflechtungen der deutschen und russischen Zeitgeschichte - Aufsätze und Archivfunde zu den Beziehungen Deutschlands und der Sowjetunion von 1917-1991" by Boris Chavkin and edited by Markus Edlinger and foreword by Leonid Luks. In addition to an elaborate disscusion of the assassination of Mirbach it also includes the translated comment of Dzierzynski dated July 10,1918 concerning Bljumkins reasons. Very complex. I will need to work a bit on the summary for you. Unfortunatly I do not know, if there is an English version. Chavkin was BTW co-editor of Moskow newspaper Novaja i Novejsaja Istorija and worked as lectorer for some Moskow Universities/Acadamies when this book was written. The book itself is published by the catholic university at Eichstädt where he also gives lectures (you will note this, if you go to the website of the catholic university).

The other one on Mirbach is English:
With Count Mirbach in Moscow: Diary Records And Documents From April 19 Through August 24 1918 (Russian Documents, Bibliography, and Memoir) (Hardcover)

by Karl Von Bothmer (Author) Bothmer was working with the ambassador during this time in Moskow.

This one has not arrived yet. If you want to buy it, too. Don't get the Amazon one amounting to 398,xx USD. I wrote to the publishing house and will get one from there at a mere GBP 50 something .

Good luck for your maintenance work
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  #91  
Old 08-06-2008, 11:48 AM
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His name is Count Hans Bodo von Alvensleben.

Although I'm of German-Russian heritiage, and the rest of of my family speaks German, I don't. I was one stubborn little child and believed since we were living in the USA that we speak English. My Dad was okay with that since his High German didn't mix well with my Mom's Low German.

When I had time yesterday, I dug around the books I have in the house, unfortunately, the ones I am trying to find are not on my shelf which means they are in boxes and in storage. We are doing more than maintenance on our house. We're adding 5 rooms on a second level and the old part of the house is not in order.

If I remember correctly, Krupp /Germany secretly through Radek established a huge gun deal. By 16 July the shipment had not yet arrived. The Bolsheviks were anxious because Sidney Reilly, The Ace of Spies had just pulled in guns from the USA (Remington, I believe) as well as support from Ford and other wealthy supporters. And, the momentum was at that time on the side of the Whites. Plus Allied troops were headed south from the north to join the Whites. And, Whites were pulling closer to St. Petersburg.

I apologize for not having the sources.

AGRBear
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  #92  
Old 08-06-2008, 12:42 PM
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Hans Bodo Graf von Alvensleben-Neugattersleben 1882 - 1961

yes - this one exists. Sorry for being blind before and thanks for the answer.

Never mind, my father and my grandmother always used to talk polish when we were young (coming from Silesia, they left Poland in 1958) and I wouln't learn their language either. Today I deeply regret my early laziness.

-----------------

PS Both - Wilhelm II and Alvensleben-Neugattersleben were members of the Corps Borussia Bonn, another member was Eulenburg (prussian "Ministerpräsident" from 1892 - 1994 BTW.
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  #93  
Old 08-06-2008, 05:54 PM
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My not learning German, now, is laziness. Then, it was shedding the German to be an American.

Here is his info in German on wikipedia, which may have something you can use:

Hans Bodo Graf von Alvensleben-Neugattersleben – Wikipedia

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  #94  
Old 06-05-2009, 04:28 PM
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The only that was very interested in to save Nicholas II and his family was King Alfonso XIII of Spain (he saved thousand of prisoners during WWI).

George V didn't do anything (he was afraid of the reactions of laborist party, and Alexandra was a German princess). Kaiser William II didn't do anything either (he could save Russian Imperial Family when he signed the peace with Russia, and he didn't do that, but he liberated a very important communist prisoner for example). USA didn't save Nicholas II because in USA the people thought that Nicholas II was an anti-jews.

Regards!!
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  #95  
Old 06-15-2009, 03:59 AM
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I guess George V not taking in his cousins is a case of being able to choose your friends and not your family. Nicholas would have recieved a hostile reception and almost certainly caused a severe anti-monarchy protests and the government of the day would have expressed alarm/disapproval and put George in an awkward position, but I don't think it would have led to a republic.
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Old 06-15-2009, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by espejor View Post
The only that was very interested in to save Nicholas II and his family was King Alfonso XIII of Spain (he saved thousand of prisoners during WWI).

George V didn't do anything (he was afraid of the reactions of laborist party, and Alexandra was a German princess). Kaiser William II didn't do anything either (he could save Russian Imperial Family when he signed the peace with Russia, and he didn't do that, but he liberated a very important communist prisoner for example). USA didn't save Nicholas II because in USA the people thought that Nicholas II was an anti-jews.

Regards!!
Moreover, Wilhelm II had bad personal relationship with Nicholas and, mostly, Alexandra; and we know that he was not so lucid and rational to think something going over his personal troubles with someone...
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  #97  
Old 06-16-2009, 07:49 PM
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Moreover, Wilhelm II had bad personal relationship with Nicholas and, mostly, Alexandra; and we know that he was not so lucid and rational to think something going over his personal troubles with someone...
Willy didn't get on well with anybody. I think even Granny had issues with him. . .
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  #98  
Old 06-17-2009, 05:08 AM
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Theater play The House of Special Purpose

The House of Special Purpose

I wish I could go see this play:

Ekaterinberg, 1918. A wooden stockade surrounds a requisitioned house. Inside, the deposed Tsar of Russia is imprisoned with his wife, four daughters and invalid teenage son. Stripped of Imperial privilege, they are held captive by a ragtag detachment of Communist soldiers – raw young men recruited from the lowest ranks. The girls are on the brink of womanhood, their parents bowed beneath the weight of an all-consuming marriage. For one brief and airless summer, the House of Special Purpose holds them all within its walls.

Packed into the suffocating rooms, the family and their guards are forced into a frail and dangerous intimacy, tensions rising as boundaries strain and break.

Heidi Thomas’ recent work includes the original BBC television series Lilies, and screen adaptations of Madame Bovary, Ballet Shoes and I Capture the Castle. Her screenplays for the multi award-winning Cranford earned her BAFTA and Emmy nominations for Outstanding Writing, along with Best Writer Awards from the Royal Television Society, the Broadcasting Press Guild and the Writers’ Guild of Great Britain.
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  #99  
Old 06-20-2009, 06:30 PM
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Prince and Princess Andrew of Greece

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Originally Posted by EmpressRouge View Post
The execution of the Russian Imperial family prompted a quick response from George to V to rescue his Greek cousins, Prince and Princess Andrew of Greece and their family in 1922.
I didn't know that, Empress Rouge. Thank you.
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  #100  
Old 06-20-2009, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by EmpressRouge View Post
The execution of the Russian Imperial family prompted a quick response from George to V to rescue his Greek cousins, Prince and Princess Andrew of Greece and their family in 1922.
Imagine how different today's British Royal Family would be if George V didn't take any action.........
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