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  #241  
Old 12-18-2012, 04:33 AM
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Of course we wouldn't be having this discussion if, as suspected on limited intelligence at the time, the BRF was also overthrown as a result of rescuing an evil man and his familly.

The BRF couldn't have sent them to Australia or Canada as we controlled out internal/migration policies by that time, even if we didn't control our external policy - in fact control of immigration was a major reason for Australia's federation in 1901 and having the Russian royal family in this country wouldn't have been acceptable to a fledgling democracy that prized itself on the fact that women had the right to vote (something which most of the rest of the world still didn't have in 1918) and the fact that they had said 'no' to introducing forcing young men to go an kill other young men on the other side of the world, even when pressed to do so from Britain.

Loyal guards - don't make me laugh - they were the first to turn on the family and with pleasure as they had been downtrodden for so long. They had heaps of jewels etc on their own persons - if they had wanted to bribe their way out they could have done so with the riches they had stolen from the Russian peasants if they could have found anyone around them to bribe. Why should the wealth of Britain have been used when they were carrying so much with them at the time anyway - more than enough to bribe their way out if they could have found someone to bribe - but the level of hatred for the family was extreme amongst their guards at that time.

I have some sympathy for the children but very little for Nicholas and Alexandra - two of the most ruthless rulers the world had at the time. They should have had a public trial and execution however.

There was no way the Bolsheviks were going to let any of them go - and give their enemies a figurehead around which to launch a campaign to overthrow the Bolsheviks.

As for the Whites - they weren't a united force as each unit had their own agenda - e.g. the British military forces there, including some Aussies (one won the VC) were there to get Russia to continue in the war, while others were trying to overthrow the Bolsheviks and others were trying to rescue the Romanovs.

Do I blame George V for wanting to preserve his own throne and family - definitely not - it is what a normal man would do - let more extended family die to preserve what he has for his own children and there was a feeling in Britain of war weariness and a perceived threat that if the Romanovs were to go to Britain there would have been an uprising there as well - afterall they millions who had died had died for freedom supposedly and to then have a tyrant thrust upon them would have said to the soldiers and the families of the dead that the war wasn't about freedom but about keeping the royal families alive and could easily have seen an violent uprising in Britain as well at that time - particularly early in 1918 when it appeared possible that Germany could win the war as they were taking control of so much of the battlefield and forcing the British/Canadian/Empire armies back at every point.

It wasn't until August that it was clear that the Allies were on the front foot in 1918 by which time the Tsar and family were dead.

It is easy with the benefit of hindsight to say that there was no threat - but there actually was - how credible that threat was wasn't known at the time.
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  #242  
Old 12-18-2012, 04:48 AM
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I'm testy about it because surely, surely there might have been some sort of discreet assistance from Denmark? All those family members and not of them lifted a finger.
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  #243  
Old 12-18-2012, 05:26 AM
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Ever thought it was because they were such appalling rulers no one wanted to be associated with them - after all the family members were trying to win a war, remain on their own thrones and preside over democracies.

Wilhelm II actually allowed Lenin passage through Germany to reach Russia to stir up the Bolsheviks to overthrow the Tsar - knowing what had happened to earlier kings who had been overthrown why would he do that if he really cared for his 1st cousin, Alexandra and her family - simple answer - he didn't - he cared about his own family and position not a cousin and her family.

The Danes wouldn't act without the British and as there was a war going on they didn't have the means to get any sort of force there - the Germans wouldn't have let them get a naval ship through and they couldn't send soldiers.

It has to be remembered that this did all happen with the backdrop of WWI which was way more important that what happened to a few distant relatives.
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  #244  
Old 12-18-2012, 04:43 PM
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Which is kind of silly; after all, the BRF sent a ship in to rescue Greece and Constantine messed up very much the same way Nicholas II did, if not much worse. Constantine interfered with an appointment, assigned a right wing commander to the military, which triggered the junta takeover and the establishment of the dictatorship.
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  #245  
Old 12-18-2012, 05:21 PM
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The Greek King wasn't an autocrat who ordered millions to their deaths. He was a constitutional monarchy. Time had also moved on - no one would care about the Greeks and they didn't go to live in Britain anyway.
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  #246  
Old 12-19-2012, 12:23 AM
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He was a constitutional monarch, but he overstepped the boundaries and ended up setting his country up to be killed by the millions. So really, why couldn't the children at least be ransomed or gotten out? NO one would have begrudged getting the kids out.
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  #247  
Old 12-19-2012, 02:16 AM
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A lot of people would have objected to the children leaving - not least their parents but mostly the government as that would mean there would be a focus for the opposition.

If the Russian royals really wanted them out then Nicholas and Alexandra and the girls had more than enough jewels on them to pay for any ransom themselves but they didn't want to be separated, and the parents weren't prepared to pay for their own safety, if they could have found anyone who would have taken the money.

At that time in Russia, the people were out for blood - given the appalling conditions in which the Russian people lived and the opulence of the wealthy those who could have helped were long gone, or dead, and no one left cared for them.

It is easy in hindsight to say 'why' or 'what if' but in fact there was no country who would want them, given their history, no way the Bolsheviks were going to let them go - particularly the Ural Soviet (the central government didn't have control of the entire country at that time so even if Lenin had been prepared to deal the local Soviet wasn't).

Don't forget that these 'children' included girls of marriagable age and so not all that much children as young women - Alexei was already 13, only 3 years from being able to be Tsar in his own right under the 1906 constitution, and the others were all older and easily able to be the centre of continual attacks on the new regime. They had no choice but to eliminate them so avoid the sort of situation that happened in France with restoration after restoration because there were legitimate claimants clearly identifiable still alive.

Alexei and the girls had been raised to believe that autocracy and ruthless leadeship was the way to go and many countries would have totally objected to having those sort of beliefs in prominent refugees.
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  #248  
Old 12-24-2012, 09:43 AM
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I think Alexandra never believed, until it was too late, that the Russian people would rise up against her husband. There was no plan to send the children out of the country and once they were trapped, it was not going to happen. No country would take the family and the government was not going to provide safe passage for the children alone.
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  #249  
Old 12-24-2012, 09:53 AM
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To an extent, she wasn't mistaken. Most Russians did not, in fact, join the revolution. Quite a few (in more remote areas of the country) weren't even aware of it until months, years later. What's more, how many Russian leaders of the revolution can you actually name?
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  #250  
Old 12-24-2012, 10:05 AM
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I disagree. While many Russians may not have actively joined the revolution, they detested Alexandra and Nicholas, especially her. The people were starving, poor, and tired of the losses from the war. They may not have wanted the whole family massacred, but they certainly wanted the Tsar off the throne.
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  #251  
Old 12-24-2012, 10:14 AM
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That may be true for интеллигенция (not sure how to translated it; probably, the educated masses mostly consisting of nobility, artists and scientists), but the vast majority of Russians at the time were uneducated peasants for whom the Tsar was the Father of the Nation, a figure of worship. They would never even dream about going against him in any way.
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