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  #61  
Old 11-10-2012, 05:23 AM
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There are several irrelevant letters here. The main issue is the reburial of the remaining two Romanov children. This does not need to be so expensive. The Romanov family have already had a state funeral, so a private Romanov funeral, with teh living descendants in attendance, perhaps eigt soldiers to carry the coffins, an officer to salute the bodies. This would be tasteful enough,

Of course there is the question of the identity of the female body. I KNOW she is Anastasiya. The confusion was caused by the mistake of Dr. Abramov in 1991 who incorrectly identified body 5 as Tatiana and body 6 as Anastasiya. The legs of body 5 were too long to be Tatiana. Marie was 5'7 tall. Tatiana was 5'5". Body 5 was Marie and body 6 was Tatiana. This was correctly established by Dr. Maples who was also at the grave in 1991.

But we must also look at the circumstances of the grave which was discovered in 2007. The Bolsheviks wanted to completely destroy the bodies and they did not do a very good job of this with the nine bodies in the mass grave. So they took the other two bodies to another grave and burned them and treated them with acid. They made a better job of this. But why would they have taken the smallest Romanov body - Alexei - and the largest - Marie ? This does not make sense. They took the two smallest bodies - Alexei and Anastasiya.

But I think it would be OK to ignore this. Anastasiya has already had a funeral so maybe it would be best to bury the remaining body as Marie.
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  #62  
Old 11-19-2012, 06:02 PM
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This is my first post here so I hope it's OK!

I was in St Petersburg earlier this year and I asked the guides at the Peter and Paul Fortress why Marie and Alexei hadn't been buried ... and got three different answers from three different people. One was that DNA tests are still being carried out - but it was announced ages ago that the bodies had been positively identified. One was that it's due to the present regime: the funerals of the others took place in Yeltsin's time, and Yeltsin was quite keen to be associated with pre-revolutionary times - he was also involved in restoring cathedrals damaged by Stalin - whereas the present government isn't really interested in something that happened 94 years ago. & the other was that it's some sort of theological issue - the last funeral was a funeral of "ordinary" (albeit royal) people, but because the whole family's been canonised since then this would be a funeral of two saints, and saints can't be buried in ordinary graves. I don't know how true any of this is, but it's what I was told.
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  #63  
Old 11-20-2012, 12:31 AM
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Thanks

Thanks for your reply. The true reason for the fact that these other two burials have not taken place is economy. Vladimir Putin is rebuilding Russia at great cost. The state funeral was a very big event. All of the World leaders were there. The British even sent a pipe band for the procession. You can see the state funeral on the internet. There is a theological / political argument. The region of Sverdlovsk believes that they should be buried in Ekaterinburg, in the church that has ben built on the site of the Ipatiev House, but I do not think that this argument would carry any weight. The real problem is the cost of a state funeral.
But my argument is that there is no need for a state funeral. The Romanov family have already had a state funeral so this could be a private Romanov family funeral. It could also be financed by the Romanov family.

The identity of the girl is not a problem. I think that it is obvious that the remaining girl is actually Anastasiya, but Anastasiya has already had a funeral so the remaining girl should be buried as Marie.

This is a problem which is relatively easy to solve. The Russian Government are creating problems which do not really exist.
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  #64  
Old 11-20-2012, 03:07 PM
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I'd say let Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, the supposed 'Head of the House of Romanov' pay for the burial of her ancestors. But, since she doesn't believe that Nicholas and his family aren't buried in the Russian church, she won't fork over any dough.
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  #65  
Old 11-20-2012, 03:21 PM
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^^^^
Maria Romanova is not a descendent of Nicholas II. He had no living descendents. At best she is a distant cousin of Alexei and Maria, the Tsars children. I doubt she would do anything that might alienate Tsar Putin.
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  #66  
Old 11-20-2012, 03:40 PM
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HIH Grand Duchess Maria of Russia will respect surely the decision of the Russian Orthodox Church on this issue.
The Imperial Family is not involved in politics and have a normal dialogue with the government.
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  #67  
Old 11-20-2012, 03:43 PM
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Yes, I suppose not, since she and the 'Tsar' are on such good relations. The last time she was in Russia, he invited her and her son to 'hurry back' for another visit.
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  #68  
Old 12-15-2012, 08:54 PM
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RE: Orthodox Burial by Church
The Orthodox Church of Russia does not recognize those remains as the Russian Imperial Family.
One must draw their own conclusions as to what happened. I did based on two books that I read.
I think that the church was able to get the Imperial Family out of Russia. They had local towns people dress as the Royal Family and switch places. The comments made by the Priests that gave them their last church service at "the house" stated that the family did not even look to be the same people.
As for me, I feel certain that the Church was able to save the Imperial Family members. Tsar Nicholas II had a heart attack sometime during the war with Germany. Answers about this situation should be investigated.
Check out the Tsar's Around the World Trip. Where did he go and who in his family went with him? What year was that?
The mother of King George V of England and the mother of Nicholas II, Empress Maria, were sisters. King George V is the nephew of Empress Maria.
Check out the ship King George V sent to Empress Maria; The Marlborough, un-hearlded and unescorted. There was an Anastasia on board when the ship left Russia. There was also a very tall man named Waldemar on board. Also check out the ship named the Nelson, whose passenger list has not been released to the public.
Empress Maria was able to get many family members out of Russia.
Am seeking answers as to why my male, 1st cousin and I have DNA matches with the Tsar. Especially Autosomal matches. I am T2g2a Haplogroup. Cousin is I1. Tested with Genebase.com and FamilyTree.com.
YSearch.com (KCV4E)
My first cousin looks a great deal like Tsar Nicholas II. I saw a painting of Tsar Nicholas II on a white horse on a snow covered hill and at that age he looked so much like my cousin. Just seeking the truth.
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  #69  
Old 12-15-2012, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek06 View Post
I KNOW she is Anastasiya.
Unless you were there in 1918 when they were killed and buried (or dumped, which might be more suiting), I very much doubt that anyone of us can know for certain if it was either Maria or Anastasia who was found with Alexei.

I do wonder how they concluded that it must have been Maria since it apparently, from a scientific point of view, is impossible to tell which one of the sisters it was.
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  #70  
Old 12-16-2012, 12:45 AM
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There was confusion when the bodies found in the mass grave were buried. The Russian Abramov suggested that body 5 was Tatiana and body 6 was Anastasia. But body 5 was 5'7" tall. This was Marie. Body 6 was too tall to be Anastasiya. Body 6 was Tatiana.

The Bolsheviks separated two bodies because they had not been succesful in destroying the bodies in the mass grave. They wanted to make a better job of destroying the two remaining bodies. Alexei was the smallest. Why would they have chosen the tallest girl ?
It is obvious that the other body is Anastasiya, who was only slightly taller than Alexei.

This matter needs to be put to rest now. It is a very dark shadow on Russian history and teh Russian Government must now do the decent thing.
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  #71  
Old 12-16-2012, 03:29 PM
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There are indeed scientific methods involving the analysis of tooth enamel that can determine age at the time of death very closely. There are other subsidiary techniques involving teeth and bones that would also give back-up support for the tooth enamel data.

In a best case scenario, all the young females would be studied thoroughly if someone wanted proper burial of them.

The family deserve a monument, actually, a funerary monument befitting what their existing family members and supporters would want to provide.
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  #72  
Old 12-17-2012, 04:50 AM
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I just want these two children to join the rest of their family. It does not need to be a full state funeral. The Romanov family have already had a state funeral. Just a private funeral. The identity is not important. She can be buried as Marie because Marie has not had a funeral.

But they should now be laid to rest with their family.
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  #73  
Old 12-17-2012, 02:13 PM
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Well, to be honest about Alexei and Marie, I wish they would bury the kids in a simple ceremony, but that is up to the family and they have to foot the bill for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daria_S View Post
Indeed. The idea of anyone surviving that blood bath was always preposterous to me. No one, outside of a superhuman could have walked (or crawled) out of that basement. The Soviets may have been bad shots, but they certainly made sure that every single person that was supposed to be dead, was (and even if bayonets and bullets didn't completely kill, then being burned in the pit certainly completed the job). Whenever anyone would start talking about a 'survival story' they have seen on the History or the Biography Channel, I would roll my eyes and not even bother, since people will always believe exactly what they want, and swaying them has absolutely no purpose whatsoever.
I believe people wanted to believe it could happen mainly because it's just something that is too horrible to accept. Something along the lines of like how people could never accept that the Holocaust happened, mainly because it's just too horrible.

Quote:
Maria Romanova is not a descendent of Nicholas II. He had no living descendents. At best she is a distant cousin of Alexei and Maria, the Tsars children. I doubt she would do anything that might alienate Tsar Putin.
I wish people would remember that; Maria Vladimirovna is a distant relation, Rostislav is the more direct descendant and he is the one who is descended from the sister of Nicholas II, the sister Xenia. Maria is such a usurping tool, no different from her great grandfather Kiril and her sucking up to Putin is par the course mainly because she is so power mad that she would suck up to Stalin (like Kiril sucked up to the Provisional government and bargained with the Soviets) if it meant getting a throne.

Which puts to rest the idea that monarchy prevents dictatorships. if the Sovereign is willing to work with any form of government, it shows that monarchs might be more than willing to sit passively by while a dictator terrorizes the people as long as they are left alone.
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  #74  
Old 12-25-2012, 12:12 PM
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Very well said, AristoCat(and also Daria S.with your comments about the "survival" of the last Imperial Family). Very well said, indeed! Now,if only others would believe instead of claiming to be descendants of that family and writing stories about it.
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  #75  
Old 07-17-2013, 04:48 PM
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July 17th... 95 years since the murder of Nicholas II... and nothing has changed. The Orthodox Church continues to maintain its position against the identification of the Yekaterinburg remains.
So... What on earth does the following statement mean, made today by Marie Vladimirovna's lawyer German Lykanov?
Quote: "It would be premature to put the matter to rest, especially given that weighty evidence has been found abroad and may shed light on the actual state of affairs"
Precisely what "weighty evidence found abroad" is he talking about?

From Today's InterFax/Religion:
17 July 2013, 14:55
Russian Investigative Committee doesn't doubt authenticity of Romanov remains

Moscow, July 17, Interfax - The Russian Investigative Committee does not doubt the authenticity of the royal family remains found near Yekaterinburg and it is ready to answer every question of the Russian Orthodox Church.

"No new data, which might have called our research into question, has been uncovered," senior investigator of the Russian Investigative Committee's Main Forensic Department Vladimir Solovyov, who investigated the murder of the royal family, told Interfax on Wednesday.

The family of the last Russian emperor, Nicholas II, was executed in the Urals 95 years ago, in the early morning hours of July 17, 1918.

"Numerous conferences have been held since 2008 when our report was published but no one has ever questioned the scientific integrity of our inquiry," Solovyov said.

"It is our opinion, based on scientific methods, that the remains actually belong to members of the royal family," the Investigative Committee representative said.

He added that the royal family murder case would not be completely closed until the burial of the remains of Prince Alexey and his sister Maria.

"The Church claims it has certain qualms about our studies. It would be best to have a civilized discussion about any problems with the clerics. We are ready to listen to their objections and to answer their questions. There has been no joint work between church scholars and the scientists who examined the remains," Solovyov said.

"I would like to meet with representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate and have a civilized discussion on every issue. It is an outrage that human remains are still be stored in the archives instead of being buried," Solovyov said about the remains of Prince Alexey and Princess Maria.

Meanwhile, the House of Romanov, led by Grand Duchess of Russia Marina Vladimirovna, said it was not prepared to recognize the authenticity of the remains found in Yekaterinburg. "The head of the Russian royal family, Grand Duchess Marina Vladimirovna, fully shares the position of the Russian Orthodox Church. Neither the investigators nor the Prosecutor General's Office have given complete, coherent answers to the ten questions of the Russian Orthodox Church," the House of Romanov lawyer, German Lukyanov, told Interfax on Wednesday.

"It would be premature to put the matter to rest, especially given that weighty evidence has been found abroad and may shed light on the actual state of affairs," Lukyanov said.

The notes of investigator Nikolay Sokolov, who was looking into the murder of the last Russian emperor and his family in 1919 on the orders of Admiral Kolchak, were found during the reconstruction of the Job the Long-Suffering Church in Brussels, he said. The House of Romanov expects an analysis of the papers found in Brussels to put an end to the dispute over the authenticity of the royal family remains.

The Russian Investigative Committee finished the inquiry into the criminal case of the death of the family of Nicholas II in January 2011. The remains were proclaimed genuine.

The Russian Orthodox Church and the House of Romanov continue to deny the authenticity of the remains.

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  #76  
Old 07-17-2013, 08:35 PM
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The House of Romanov, such as it is, with Maria and Georgi and the ROC are minis a few brain cells that are working correctly. What more evidence do they need to authenticate what remain of Alexey and Maria. All the others including the Romanov retainers, have been identified thru DNA and are now buried in a church where they should be. I guess I don't understand the way things work in Russia as far as the Imperial Family goes.
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  #77  
Old 08-09-2013, 06:36 AM
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From Today's Interfax/Religion

2013-08-09 14:26:00
Russian Orthodox Church still doubts authenticity of Russian royal family remains

Moscow, August 9, Interfax - The head of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for Church and Society Relations Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin has said that the Russian Orthodox Church still has doubts regarding secular experts' conclusions that the human remains found near the city of Yekaterinburg belonged to the Russian Imperial Family members.

"In my opinion, a very wide range of competent experts, not necessarily just Orthodox experts, should be allowed to study the discovered remains," Father Vsevolod said.

It is important both to compare the DNA of some individual fragment with the DNA of the remains of other Imperial Family members, assess the wholeness of the skeletons, establish whether or not all of the found human remains have the same DNA and confirm the presence of former injuries, for example the injury that was sustained by Tsar Nicholas II during his trip to Japan when he was the heir to the Russian throne, the archpriest said.

There is also a need to compare different theories describing how the bodies were disposed of and buried, he said.

Eleven people, including members of the Russian Imperial Family and people from their entourage, were shot at the Urals regional council presidium's order in the early hours of July 17, 1918.

A grave with nine bodies was found on Staraya Koptyakovskaya Road near Yekaterinburg in July 1991. The remains were identified as those of Emperor Nicholas II, his 46-year-old wife Alexandra Fyodorovna, their daughters Olga, 22, Tatyana, 21, and Anastasia, 17, and their servants Yevgeny Botkin, 53, Anna Demidova, 40, Aloizy Trupp, 62, and Ivan Kharitonov, 48.

The remains of two more people were discovered during archaeological excavation works 70 kilometers south of the first grave on July 26, 2007. The remains have still not been buried, but numerous expert analyses indicate that the remains were most likely those of Crown Prince Alexey and his sister Maria.

The Investigative Committee said in January 2011 that it had completed an investigation into the death of Nicholas II, his family members and entourage and closed the criminal case.

The Russian Orthodox Church has still not recognized the remains interred in Peter and Paul Cathedral as those of Nicholas II and his family members and entourage, claiming that it was not convinced by the proof of their authenticity that was presented.

The House of Romanov head, Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, will recognize the remains buried at the St. Peter and Paul Cathedral in St. Petersburg as those of the royal family, if the Russian Orthodox Church says they are authentic, the House of Romanov spokesman Alexander Zakatov told Interfax.

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  #78  
Old 08-09-2013, 09:29 PM
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given that forensic scientists have ended up verifying the remains, I wonder why on earth the ROC and MV remain so determinedly in denial.
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